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Old 2011-04-23, 14:55   Link #21
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
And in any case, the status of Jesus is irrelevant to my original question. Is the Old Testament's god also the New Testament's god, or not?
No, he is not. The God of the Old Testament does not include the Son, and is thus fundamentally different from the God of the New Testament.

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
I just saw that GundamFan0083 claimed that the god of the Torah was not the god of the New Testament, which contradicts what I do understand.
You understood wrong, and GundamFan0083 is correct. That's simply the way it is, theologically.

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
So what I'm taking away from this is, Christians consider Jesus their God, even though they call him "Son of God" as well? What?
You won't be the first, nor the last, to be totally confused about the concept of Trinity. It's very difficult to grasp, and I'll leave it to the theologians here to sort it out better than I can.

To put it as simply, to the extent of my understanding, the Trinity does not suggest that there is more than one God. It merely means that God has more than one form of manifestation. To use a crude analogy, it's not unlike the way water has three physical states: gas, liquid and solid.
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Old 2011-04-23, 14:58   Link #22
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
You do realize the "here, read this! (link)" approach is hardly an effective way of making a point, right?

Your own words, please. I have better things to do with my time then waste it going through theological word salad.
Then don't engage in these discussions Ascaloth.
You clearly don't have enough background in theology to understand what we're saying here.
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Old 2011-04-23, 15:01   Link #23
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
After all why must we adhere to the Christian interpretation ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Does it strictly have to be the Biblical God? I'm sure you're aware there are many kinds of religious beliefs, and the nature of "God" will differ according to the believer.
The Christian/Biblical God is simply what was used in synaesthetic's post. synaesthetic, who is apparently an atheist, said something along the line of: some sort of transcendent being called god could exist, but if this being does exist, it's certainly not the being described in the Bible who has human motivations.

So I suppose it doesn't have to be strictly about the Biblical God. But while I acknowledge that there are other religious beliefs, I don't think that beings like the Greek gods would fit the topic.

If that is too limiting to be discussed in this forum, then that's fine.
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Jesus, for the Jews, was merely another prophet
I believe that's true for the Muslims. I don't think most Jews today even consider Jesus as a prophet, but I could be wrong about that.
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Old 2011-04-23, 15:02   Link #24
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
So what I'm taking away from this is, Christians consider Jesus their God, even though they call him "Son of God" as well? What?
Yes.

Some people thought it was weird too. They argued Jesus shouldn't be God if he's the Son of God. They had councils where they argued about it. Then they had wars where they fought over it. They eventually lost. They finally lost it around the time when the Franks decided it was a good idea to ally with the Bishop of Rome and sided with the people who thought Jesus should be God after all.

Then the winners had a lot of scholars spend centuries pondering over how Jesus (and the Holy Spirit, but that's always something of an afterthought) is God when he's the Son of God. It's quite deep if you really really read into it. They asked how because asking why was an unnecessary risk after all that mess.

The winners were the Nicenes because of a major council at Nicaea was where the winners first won their point, and we know them as Catholics. The losers were largely known as Arians after one of the people who raised the question, though there were other groups too of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster
So I suppose it doesn't have to be strictly about the Biblical God. But while I acknowledge that there are other religious beliefs, I don't think that beings like the Greek gods would fit the topic.
So why shouldn't I put more interest, and even faith, into the Hindu notion of Moksha or the Manichean Dualism? "Certainly" maybe 0.0~1% too strong, but even so given the diversity of mythologies over the course of human history the only reason the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God deserves more air time over other concepts of the divine is because they did better overall on the very human plane of history, often by the sword.

Last edited by Irenicus; 2011-04-23 at 15:12.
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Old 2011-04-23, 15:19   Link #25
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
So why shouldn't I put more interest, and even faith, into the Hindu notion of Moksha or the Manichean Dualism?
Purely speaking as a random person who is posting on an internet forum, I have no objection about where you put your interest and/or faith.
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Old 2011-04-23, 15:40   Link #26
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Purely speaking as a random person who is posting on an internet forum, I have no objection about where you put your interest and/or faith.
Yes and I applaud your tolerance and all (I'm actually atheist FYI), but the point is that the way you introduced the topic is such that anyone would read a Christian subtext into it, and quite legitimately question why one would need to introduce a Christian subtext before asking the metaphysical question.

And it is, indeed, a supremely complex metaphysical question. The very conception of God requires one to first define the basic notion with which a human can interpret God: is it an entity, a concept or both? Is it sentient or omnipresent, or both, and if both can the two be philosophically reconciled? Does it possess a will, can it possess a will? Etc., etc.

Indeed, can an entity as limited as we are capable of even conceptualizing genuine omnipresence beyond the vaguest of philosophical notions?
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Old 2011-04-23, 19:01   Link #27
Leo Keichi
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The personality of god in the Old Testament is different from Jesus'. Yahweh is angry and vengeful, while Jesus is the hippie, "love and peace" kind of person.

The Bible says that Adam was created in the image of God. From my understanding, that means the biblical god has a body similar to ours. But I think that doesn't really make much sense. Why would a spiritual being need to have, for example, a stomach, or a penis? Without even having at least a female counterpart?

But, of course, you can have a superior being who has motivations and emotions very much alike the human ones. All that is needed is self-conscience and a self-will.
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Old 2011-04-23, 19:46   Link #28
Xagzan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Keichi View Post
The personality of god in the Old Testament is different from Jesus'. Yahweh is angry and vengeful, while Jesus is the hippie, "love and peace" kind of person.
Jesus was a Jew. Pure and simple. Saying anything bad about Yahweh wouldn't have been cool with Jesus. He was working to reinterpret the Jewish law, which was actually a pretty common thing for Judaism at the time. He was trying to get Jews to shift their focus from salvation of the nation to personal salvation, but he didn't deviate, at least he wouldn't have seen it as deviating, from the Jewish scripture, or from their god.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Keichi View Post
The Bible says that Adam was created in the image of God. From my understanding, that means the biblical god has a body similar to ours. But I think that doesn't really make much sense. Why would a spiritual being need to have, for example, a stomach, or a penis? Without even having at least a female counterpart?
"Created in his image" doesn't mean physical image. It was a call for Jews to act as their god would, to base their morality upon him, and to treat their fellow humans with the same respect with which they treated him. Since humans were "created in god's image," it was understood that all of them had inherent dignity and worth and should be treated as such. It's purpose was a social justice thing, not an anthropological thing.
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:19   Link #29
Vexx
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Quote:
Except, see, monster, people aren't questioning because they don't Believe. It's just that you started the thread with a very clear Judeo-Christian subtext, and then try to pose a metaphysical question. So they frown and back up and try to point out to you that this ethnocentrism dilutes the purity of the metaphysical question.
This QFT and this thread is pretty much something I've heard dozens of times over the decades and don't care to keep re-debating.
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:31   Link #30
SaintessHeart
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After seeing 2 of my fellow countrymen in this thread, I should stay out. Why don't you guys just allow yourselves harvested by a city church like most of your fellow locals, and adhere to the nature of god being in everyone who wants to be part of a collective belief? *sarcasm > 900000000000, 0 < caustic << 1 *

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This QFT and this thread is pretty much something I've heard dozens of times over the decades and don't care to keep re-debating.
It is good to practice your arguments you know.
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:36   Link #31
Vexx
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It is good to practice your arguments you know.
Not if the new round of freshmen keep bringing the "freshman" position points to the table...
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:37   Link #32
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
this thread is pretty much something I've heard dozens of times over the decades and don't care to keep re-debating.
Agreed. This whole thread seems to have been created as a tangent issue to another thread. While I recognize that this weekend in particular is a natural time to discuss this topic, this thread falls under our Forum Rules about flammable and cyclic topics. I'm really not convinced that we need another "Who is God/Is God real?" thread or that this is the way to do it. It's also a thread that seems to have been spawned as a way to respond to negative rep, and that's a big no-no.

So, anyway, thread locked.
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