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Old 2011-04-28, 18:57   Link #61
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
And the local folks haven't forgotten how it was before this massive immigration, unlike the US where there's "always" been a mix of races.
Go back to the 50s and tell a German or a Swede they will have problems with Ghettos, violence in schools and similar problems. Something like that was unthinkable back then. Today these problems are to be found everywhere throughout western and northern Europe.
The reasons why there was no ghettoes in the 50s, was because all the ethnic minorities were wiped out by nationalist ethnic cleansing in the half century prior to that. And this goes for all of Europe, not just Germany. Like here.

And I assure you there was plenty of crime in the 50s, in Europe more so due to the poverty that existed during reconstruction. In Ireland we have very few immigrants (mostly recent Poles who are here to work), and we still have plenty of crime! I believe Ireland is not significantly different from the European average either.

Quote:
I can only speak for me of course, but IMHO the drawbacks of European style immigration outweigh the benefits by far. I'd rather have all borders shut down than to have the current immigration laws. But we cannot go back, we cannot correct the errors made in the past anymore, naturalization has become easy and widespread so we have to find a different way to solve these problems than to send them "home". Apart from zero tolerance I don't have any solutions - but nobody seems to have. German politicians are advocating a politic of integration now, like we have seen in Great Britain and Holland, but it failed there and it will fail here. We're just a decade behind.
I think the problem is not immigration, it's poverty among the immigrants, and poverty always has been and always will be a problem. I think the solution is to improve economic opportunities, not to cut immigration.

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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Why? A very good question indeed - I don't know the answers.

One problem is that Westerners are raised (not to say brainwashed) to be extremely tolerant towards other cultures and they will judge people that advocate harsh immigration laws quickly. They outright oppose any party that is judged as right wing. The funny thing is that there's been some kind of online "party chooser" here, where all parties are asked to answer some questions and it will show the voter which party he mostly agrees with after he has taken the same quiz. And each time I see quite a few people whining on the forums about how ridiculous that test is, after it has proposed them to vote right or far right, while they consider themselves to be leftists.
What the problem with tolerance? I think the past 100 years of European history shows where intolerance leads. We make American Racism look mild.
Quote:
- All main parties were in favor of the Euro, while the majority of the people was against it
Where I am we all thought it was a good idea, there are still some issues to be ironed out, but I still think it's great economically, encourages crossborder trade and tourism.

Quote:
Not that plebiscites solve all those problems, Switzerland's immigration problems are pretty much identical to those of Germany and Austria. But they passed stricter immigration laws (not to forget the minaret ban) recently against the will of the majority of Swiss politicians.
And I think this will only serve to further alienate muslim minorities in Switzerland and actually make things worse.

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And of course not to forget:
Many people don't think the current immigration is a problem, or that the problems we see are not the fault of the immigrants, but rather that of the native population. More people than I'd like to admit think like this and I blame our upbringing for this.
I think the native population is more at fault then you think, immigrants are always a minority, and usually only choose to turn inwards if they feel their surroundings are hostile.

Quote:
What I find truly ironic:
Germans are taught in school about the Nazis and the Holocaust over and over again, "so that history will never repeat itself". But if Muslim immigrants hunt Jews they look away or downplay it, because all they ever learned was to hate themselves. It is already repeating and we aren't any better than our grandparents.
These problems are not uniquely German, but this kind of scaremongering about Muslims is exactly like so many other scapegoating racist diatribes that have existed prior to now. Obviously there are anti-semitic problems among muslims, and it shouldn't be condoned, but we're doing the exact same thing to muslims, 99% of whom harm no one.

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Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
And let's compare this with Europe, with their itsy bitsy tiny nation-states in which the same group of people lived in a region uninterruptedly for over millennia with a grandiose history full of proud historic figures and glorious battles (all won of course) with all the bad stuff glossed over and ignored (unless you're Germany and the topic is the second world war, for obvious reasons) .
An apt thing to say, nationalism in Europe can become a bit ridiculous

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Are the second generation Turks, Moroccans, Kurds and all the other Muslims fully integrated? Of course not! (Some are though) Their grasp of the native language is also quite poor (especially compared to the 2nd generation immigrants in the USA) Or how about this? Will a Kurdish dish ever be part of the Norwegian cuisine? (similar how pizza is part of the American cuisine) Or a Turkish dish part of the German cuisine? Or a Moroccan dish part of the Dutch cuisine?
Hihihi, hahaha, hohoho I'm laughing too the idea is too absurd! An Alien invasion is more likely than that.
Doner Kebab? You can't go into a German town without finding somewhere that serves it. Or how about Chicken Tikka Masala? You're completely wrong here, lots of foreign dishes have become perenial favourites in Europe, just like Hotdogs and Pizza. And of course that's all non-european dishes. In Ireland Chinese, Pizza, Curry, and kebab have become far more popular then our traditional Bacon, sausage, chips or Stew ever was. Just as every town in Ireland had a pub, now every town also has a chinese takeaway! I'd say it's pretty much the same everywhere else in Europe as well.

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Believe it or not this isn't the first time in European history in which a large group of people failed to integrate in various European societies, these large groups kept to themselves, kept practising their own customs and religions. I'm of course talking about the Jews and Gypsies. The latter, after two centuries, are still not integrated.
Actually Jews and Gypsies were never present in the same numbers as those from the middle east are today. Jews were only a significant portion of the population in the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. And Romany have been around far longer then 2 centuries, and are present in very small (if highly visible) numbers.

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I don't think the reason of lack of integration of immigrants in Europe has anything to do with welfare state, lax youth criminal system and open borders. I think the core problem is somewhere else...
The problem is Nationalism. Pure and simple. What gives us more right to live where we are than outsiders? Look at Ireland, it's a fricking Island, and we have lots of people who think they're British! And that's not including all the Anglo-Irish who left after Independence! There isn;t a single place in Europe that doesn't have some group of people who feel the borders of their country are incorrect, or that they should live in another country, or a group of other people who live among them should live in another country, or that they should live in an independent state.

It's all absurd, let's move and enjoy ourselves, work a bit, and celebrate our culture however we like. Why should our feeling national pride make us feel the urge to hate some other country (in Ireland Britain gets all the hate...).

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-04-28 at 19:08.
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Old 2011-04-28, 19:06   Link #62
Bri
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I would say more in the modern definition, I would give both Italy and Germany as good examples as to why Nation States are absurd concepts. In Italy in particular, most Italians did not, in fact, speak Italian prior to the 19th Century, even today there are large variations in what language is spoken.
It's true that the rise of nation states is a 19th century development. However regional identities in Europe are much older and outside of large urban areas also much stronger. Nation states have surpressed these identities for a while, but after the cold war they have come back to the surface. For immigrants and their decendants in those places it can mean they will remain outsiders for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Would does beg the question....what is the European Union founded on in terms of ideology? Can't be nationalism because such a thing didn't exist with all the various nations within its structure at present still being nationalistic in their own rights (British, French, German, Dutch, etc, etc, etc....)
The EU's roots can be traced back to the European Coal and Steel Community founded in 1951. It's basic purpose was the bring the military-industrial complex under joint control and to prevent monopolies so no single nation in Europe (read France or Germany) could start an uncontrollable military build up again. Essentially the (forerunner of the) EU was founded on a peace treaty to make war in Europe impossible.

On a more abstract level it created a foundation for a supranational European entity not based on the sovereignty of the Roman Imperial throne. Which vacancy had been an inspiration for madmen for 1500 years.
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Old 2011-04-28, 19:38   Link #63
sneaker
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The reasons why there was no ghettoes in the 50s, was because all the ethnic minorities were wiped out by nationalist ethnic cleansing in the half century prior to that. And this goes for all of Europe, not just Germany. Like here.
Yes, in a homogeneous environment you don't have the problem you have in a multi-cultural one. That's pretty much my whole point. And it's not like Germany was full of Ghettos before the Nazis or the Kaiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
And I assure you there was plenty of crime in the 50s, in Europe more so due to the poverty that existed during reconstruction.
Yes, we also had crime. But it didn't have the same quality as now. Just recently fireman rescuing a woman were attacked by a mob of Muslims in Berlin. And it wasn't the first time - these attacks are getting pretty common now. Those problems are new and only related to the Muslim immigration we've seen during the last decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the problem is not immigration, it's poverty among the immigrants, and poverty always has been and always will be a problem. I think the solution is to improve economic opportunities, not to cut immigration.
But how do you make them take their chances? They simply don't, although we give them the opportunity. You have plenty of chances to go to school and even study at college even if your parents are workless. But if they don't work for school they'll never make it. In their culture it does not matter - family is important, not working for school. That's a huge problem.
The Vietnamese immigrants here are equally educated as the Turkish immigrants here (i.e.: uneducated). But that's only the first generation. Starting with the second(!) generation the Vietnamese surpass the native population in terms of success in school, while the Turkish seem to get worse and worse with each generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
What the problem with tolerance? I think the past 100 years of European history shows where intolerance leads. We make American Racism look mild.
Slavery compared to the Holocaust?
I don't think tolerance is a problem in general, it's just that we've gone overboard and tend to turn a blind eye to errors in the immigrants culture. We won't solve anything that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Where I am we all thought it was a good idea, there are still some issues to be ironed out, but I still think it's great economically, encourages crossborder trade and tourism.
People here were happy with the German Mark and they feared having to pay for the other countries, which all politicians outright denied, because the contracts forbid it. Ten years later we know these contracts were worth shit and we already poured in money for Greece, Ireland and ......

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
And I think this will only serve to further alienate muslim minorities in Switzerland and actually make things worse.
Muslims won't stop demanding more and more rights. I don't think they are compatible with our society.

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the native population is more at fault then you think, immigrants are always a minority, and usually only choose to turn inwards if they feel their surroundings are hostile.
That's what I mean by the tolerance they teach us. We were brought up to only seek our errors. Self-criticism is unkown in the Muslim world.
That's why they kill people when someone burns a Koran thousands of miles away and we criticize the one who burned it. That's if you live in the US. In some European countries you might have to fear prison (sooner or later).

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
These problems are not uniquely German, but this kind of scaremongering about Muslims is exactly like so many other scapegoating racist diatribes that have existed prior to now. Obviously there are anti-semitic problems among muslims, and it shouldn't be condoned, but we're doing the exact same thing to muslims, 99% of whom harm no one.
So, what exactly are we doing to Muslims? Do our kids roam the streets, beating up and robbing Muslims. Do we rape their women? Do we teach our children that Muslims are worth shit and that only Christians are worth living? Do our preachers teach hatred towards Islam?
I strongly disagree, we treat them way better than they treat us.

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Actually Jews and Gypsies were never present in the same numbers as those from the middle east are today.
And not to forget that they didn't migrate within a short amount of time. That's one of the reasons for the conflicts: huuge waves of immigration in a very short amount of time. This is probably something that has never happened on this scale in the history of humanity before.
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Old 2011-04-28, 19:43   Link #64
MaiNoKen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the problem is not immigration, it's poverty among the immigrants, and poverty always has been and always will be a problem. I think the solution is to improve economic opportunities, not to cut immigration.

...

I think the native population is more at fault then you think, immigrants are always a minority, and usually only choose to turn inwards if they feel their surroundings are hostile.
That is why minority empowerment is center to the solution - poverty fuels social problems, while at-least-doing-ok (or even better be-a-united-force with strong political and economic power) is at least partially the answer to intolerance.

I do believe to make the minority and immigration economically stronger may DO require changes to immigration laws. The last thing you wish to see is an influx of low/no skill people. Better skilled immigrant should have an advantage in getting citizenship over low/no skill immigrant. I hate to say it, but this is a situation that meritocracy is helpful. Poor management of immigration policy does not help the overall economy nor the future of the immigrants themselves. And as far as state is concerned, the state HAS to look after its own best interest well enough - that includes not screwing its own economy.

Sometimes TOUGH choices are needed to be made. If actually tightening up immigration laws to limit to immigration to skill workers and reduce intake of economic refugees will lead to an improvement of quality of life for all (including immigrants and non-immigrants), it is a step that needs to be taken.

Quote:
Where I am we all thought it was a good idea, there are still some issues to be ironed out, but I still think it's great economically, encourages crossborder trade and tourism.
I assume we are talking about Euro the currency.

While I support open borders and easiness of travel within the EU, I am not sure Euro currency is actually a wise idea. One of the biggest problem of the European debt crisis is inflexibility of the Euro currency. While German economy is doing great and exporting well (drives Euro up), Greeks probably want Euro to weaken so they can become competitive. It does not help Merkel cannot go into the parliament in Athens demanding Greeks start paying taxes and make budget cuts when Greeks owe German money.

Quote:
And I think this will only serve to further alienate muslim minorities in Switzerland and actually make things worse.
Again and again I have said, democracy is playing what its rules designed to. Be that a good or a bad thing...

Quote:
It's all absurd, let's move and enjoy ourselves, work a bit, and celebrate our culture however we like. Why should our feeling national pride make us feel the urge to hate some other country (in Ireland Britain gets all the hate...).
Nearly everyone have ego, among a large fraction are slow to change and are foolish. It is the nature of human society. I try to not to insult anyone - anyone who partake in this discussion are smart enough .

It is ACTUALLY HARD to enjoy and celebrate ourselves, and move on to have a good life. It is EASY to be cynical, angry, intolerant because it requires no brain juice to do so! What irony!

PS: If I am too blunt in my ideas, I will apologize.

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-04-28 at 20:02.
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Old 2011-04-28, 20:09   Link #65
Ithekro
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The old pattern of migration in the Americas was one of two things. Either you attempt to fit in with whatever culture is there already, or you segrigate your community. Sometimes these segrigated communities would integrate on following generations, and some just stay as they are (at least in some traditional sense...but these tend to be in rural areas...Amish for instance). If you went far enough back, the immigates would take over the natives as they started to outnumber the locals (but that usually only works if you can get a technological edge).

Integration was a source of pride for some families. The whole "American Dream" thing from the late 19th century onwards. The basic problems start when a group does not integrate...or possibly even refusing to intergrate. Then it causes friction, either when the locals think the newcomers are weird, or when the newcomers start wanting the locals to conform to them, rather than the other way around. Loudly even.

Currently, the American immigration problem is not with legal immigration, but with illegal immigration. The undocumented. Some that aren't here to stay, just to get work and send money home (under the table mostly, so it doesn't get taxed), or the revolving door of someone coming in and getting sent home, only to come back again and again. Many complain about them taking jobs and federal or state money for welfare and not paying taxes. Honestly the jobs being taken were jobs being done by immigrate labor for well over hundred years anyway. The stuff the locals don't want to do anymore (there was even a program to get in temporary labor from Mexico during the Second World War to fill in the need for farmhands due to manpower shortages).
The main reason the problem is not solved is because people like cheap food and companies like cheap labor as it keeps their costs down. The illegal Latino population mixes with the legal population and the native latino population (remember places like California, Texas, and Arizona were part of Mexico and New Spain before the Americans got hold of those lands). Most of the older communities assimilated into the more English dominated populations, but Southern California was always heavily Mexican, even to the point when Southern California wanted to break away from Northern Calfornia in the 1860s because of the Anglo-Latino split. The newcomers though have less and less reasons to assimulate. More and more of the region is speaking Spanish, and the style is reflecting Mexico more than say Ohio. That they are spreading north and east does worry people in areas that were not previously owned by Spain in the colonial period. Oregan and Washington for example are starting to get Hispanic communities were there never existed before. The White population of California is a little put off that they are no longer a majority in California...They are still actually the largest single racial group in the state, but they are less than 50% of the population, and falling.
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Old 2011-04-28, 20:14   Link #66
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by MaiNoKen View Post
That is why minority empowerment is center to the solution - poverty fuels social problems, while at-least-doing-ok (or even better be-a-united-force with strong political and economic power) is at least partially the answer to intolerance.

I do believe to make the minority and immigration economically stronger may DO require changes to immigration laws. The last thing you wish to see is an influx of low/no skill people. Better skilled immigrant should have an advantage in getting citizenship over low/no skill immigrant. I hate to say it, but this is a situation that meritocracy is helpful. It does not help the overall economy nor the future of the immigrants themselves. And as far as state is concerned, the state HAS to look after its own best interest well enough - that includes not screwing its own economy.
I think you're generally on the right track here. The problems are more accutely to do with poverty, and are getting merged together with ethnic tensions on top of it. The irony is that when immigrants come and even do well from themselves they still get resentment from certain quarters.

Quote:
Sometimes TOUGH choices are needed to be made. If actually tightening up immigration laws to limit to immigration to skill workers and reduce intake of economic refugees will lead to an improvement of quality of life for all (including immigrants and non-immigrants), it is a step that needs to be taken.
I don't think limiting immigration is the long term solution, the fact is, we can't stem the tide even if we wanted to! We share a 1000 mile undefendable border called the mediterranean sea, any immigrants who wishes to come here could quite simply row across. After that he's only got certain practical problems to deal with. The real way to solve it is at the source, IE eliminate the reason why their fleeing the middle east in the first place. If the states in the middle east were prosperous and stable we would have no problems with any of this immigration, certainly now that Turkey has new found wealth the tide of turks has pretty much ceased.

The only real way to solve the immigration issue is for European states to work with the states of the Middle East to improve prosperity there. I don't think this would be too difficult, perhaps allow middle eastern governments favourable trading terms, invest money there (with an expected return). Not only that but we have to cease favouring autocratic governments and work with the newly minted democracies there. Obviously it's the people of these countries responsibility to make their government work, but we can make there lives easier and provide subtle "encouragement" like we have done, to very good effect, with Turkey.

Quote:
I assume we are talking about Euro the currency.

While I support open borders and easiness of travel within the EU, I am not sure Euro currency is actually a wise idea. One of the biggest problem of the European debt crisis is inflexibility of the Euro currency. While German economy is doing great and exporting well (drives Euro up), Greeks probably want Euro to weaken so they can become competitive. It does not help Merkel cannot go into the parliament in Athens demanding Greeks start paying taxes and make budget cuts when Greeks owe German money.
This is a complicated issue, frankly, as a member of a country who has been just bailed out, I think the problem is primarily with the banking system and property bubbles of these countries, not the Euro itself. Though I think the Euro has made the situation more complicated, I think the real solution is that the EU needs to implement more stringent financial regulation, we should all have regulatory frameworks similiar to that of Germany. I think the EU really needs a much tighter Banking framework, and financial regulation, after that the Euro should work as intended. Also the lack of the Euro was no shield to other countries experiencing problems, the UK has had issues, and they even had to join in bailing out Ireland as they were so exposed to it. Likewise look at Iceland...

Quote:
Nearly everyone have ego, among a large fraction are slow to change and are foolish. It is a nature of human society. I try to not to insult anyone - anyone who partake in this discussion are smart enough .

It is ACTUALLY HARD to enjoy and celebrate ourselves, and move on to have a good life. It is EASY to be cynical, angry, intolerant because it requires no brain juice to do so! What irony!
I think we like to blame other countries/groups for out problems because it saves us from having to examine ourselves... We can just blame it on someone else...

It's the same pretty much everywhere, it's always your neighbours you hate the most.
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Old 2011-04-28, 20:32   Link #67
MaiNoKen
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't think limiting immigration is the long term solution, the fact is, we can't stem the tide even if we wanted to! We share a 1000 mile undefendable border called the mediterranean sea, any immigrants who wishes to come here could quite simply row across. After that he's only got certain practical problems to deal with. The real way to solve it is at the source, IE eliminate the reason why their fleeing the middle east in the first place. If the states in the middle east were prosperous and stable we would have no problems with any of this immigration, certainly now that Turkey has new found wealth the tide of turks has pretty much ceased.

...

I think we like to blame other countries/groups for out problems because it saves us from having to examine ourselves... We can just blame it on someone else...
I agree with you that fixing African/Middle East political and economic problem is indeed important. For too long, UN and many nations have tolerated bad governance in Africa and Middle East while continue to hand them money that only benefited a small fraction of the population there.

While Europeans do have to shoulder some historical reasons why the Middle East and Africa are so messed up, an equal responsibility also exists to the leaders and people there. Again as you say... people like to only blame others but not their own problems - that applies to Arabs, Africans, and Europeans. Humans are just being humans (as always).

Quote:
This is a complicated issue, frankly, as a member of a country who has been just bailed out, I think the problem is primarily with the banking system and property bubbles of these countries, not the Euro itself. Though I think the Euro has made the situation more complicated, I think the real solution is that the EU needs to implement more stringent financial regulation, we should all have regulatory frameworks similiar to that of Germany. I think the EU really needs a much tighter Banking framework, and financial regulation, after that the Euro should work as intended. Also the lack of the Euro was no shield to other countries experiencing problems, the UK has had issues, and they even had to join in bailing out Ireland as they were so exposed to it. Likewise look at Iceland...
That is very true too.

It is kind of funny that the world economy goes in political cycle - things go unregulated in 20s, bust, Keynes smack everyone. Then everyone goes Keynes and Betton Wood, and things do not work. Everyone then go back to minimal regulation eras in the 20s (I still recall I watched Milton Friedman videos when I was still in high school...) Then bust! Bye bye to the Neo Great Gatsby era, but I am not sure that we have gone back to Keynesian; the folks in HSBC, Goldman Sachs and gang are stuffing money into politicians to try to make sure that will not happen.
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Old 2011-04-28, 20:47   Link #68
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by MaiNoKen View Post
I agree with you that fixing African/Middle East political and economic problem is indeed important. For too long, UN and many nations have tolerated bad governance in Africa and Middle East while continue to hand them money that only benefited a small fraction of the population there.

While Europeans do have to shoulder some historical reasons why the Middle East and Africa are so messed up, an equal responsibility also exists to the leaders and people there. Again as you say... people like to only blame others but not their own problems - that applies to Arabs, Africans, and Europeans. Humans are just being humans (as always).
Precisely it! They do have to solve their own problems, but we should do our best not to make the situation worse, and try and subtly nudge things in the right direction. I think we can benefit both ourselves and these countries as well by doing so. Economics is not a zero sum game. Everyone can do well. For instance increased prosperity in the middle east would mean greater tourism revenue (which is already a huge sector) for us.

Quote:
That is very true too.

It is kind of funny that the world economy goes in political cycle - things go unregulated in 20s, bust, Keynes smack everyone. Then everyone goes Keynes and Betton Wood, and things do not work. Everyone then go back to minimal regulation eras in the 20s (I still recall I watched Milton Friedman videos when I was still in high school...) Then bust! Bye bye to the Neo Great Gatsby era, but I am not sure that we have gone back to Keynesian; the folks in HSBC, Goldman Sachs and gang are stuffing money into politicians to try to make sure that will not happen.
Yeah, I don't want to derail things, but I think the current banking situation is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Banks are supposed to facilitate the economy, not be huge profit making enterprises (which is the niche of investment banks). On the other hand, investment banks should not be bailed out, as they're supposed to be risky (In Ireland we bailed out investment banks...).
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Old 2011-04-28, 21:13   Link #69
Vexx
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I will certainly agree that it isn't going to go well if an intolerant aggressive group immigrates to a multi-cultural tolerant area. And that is exactly the problem Europe faces ....

In England a couple of centuries ago .... they ended up kicking the Puritans and other religious sects out .... dropkicked to America (where their intolerant views still bubble up though the religion is long gone).
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Old 2011-04-28, 21:43   Link #70
solomon
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

Integration was a source of pride for some families. The whole "American Dream" thing from the late 19th century onwards. The basic problems start when a group does not integrate...or possibly even refusing to intergrate. Then it causes friction, either when the locals think the newcomers are weird, or when the newcomers start wanting the locals to conform to them, rather than the other way around. Loudly even.

Currently, the American immigration problem is not with legal immigration, but with illegal immigration. The undocumented. Some that aren't here to stay, just to get work and send money home (under the table mostly, so it doesn't get taxed), or the revolving door of someone coming in and getting sent home, only to come back again and again. Many complain about them taking jobs and federal or state money for welfare and not paying taxes. Honestly the jobs being taken were jobs being done by immigrate labor for well over hundred years anyway. The stuff the locals don't want to do anymore (there was even a program to get in temporary labor from Mexico during the Second World War to fill in the need for farmhands due to manpower shortages).
The main reason the problem is not solved is because people like cheap food and companies like cheap labor as it keeps their costs down. The illegal Latino population mixes with the legal population and the native latino population (remember places like California, Texas, and Arizona were part of Mexico and New Spain before the Americans got hold of those lands). Most of the older communities assimilated into the more English dominated populations, but Southern California was always heavily Mexican, even to the point when Southern California wanted to break away from Northern Calfornia in the 1860s because of the Anglo-Latino split. The newcomers though have less and less reasons to assimulate. More and more of the region is speaking Spanish, and the style is reflecting Mexico more than say Ohio. That they are spreading north and east does worry people in areas that were not previously owned by Spain in the colonial period. Oregan and Washington for example are starting to get Hispanic communities were there never existed before. The White population of California is a little put off that they are no longer a majority in California...They are still actually the largest single racial group in the state, but they are less than 50% of the population, and falling.
Dude, way to break it down.



The drug and gang problem is legitimate cause for concern yet I'm wary of even conflating that with the muslim non muslim friction in Europe, but I am afraid some (many) will too easily see them as one in the same. I frankly don't think that most Latinos are creating the exact same ruckus like a small number of muslims are in Europe (pushing for sharia, open hostility to innocent non muslims). Like you said, Latinos have been in north America for a LONG TIME.

Still more broadly, US has to seriously reexamine drug policy and larger economic practices ALONG with immigration law in order to REALLY get close to having a real solution.

With the way politics are in this country though, I don't count on it. I think people will just leave it at quotas and English language law and wall and leave it at that.
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Old 2011-04-29, 00:28   Link #71
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Precisely it! They do have to solve their own problems, but we should do our best not to make the situation worse, and try and subtly nudge things in the right direction. I think we can benefit both ourselves and these countries as well by doing so. Economics is not a zero sum game. Everyone can do well. For instance increased prosperity in the middle east would mean greater tourism revenue (which is already a huge sector) for us.
I really hope recent events in the Middle East will help things for the long term. An Arabic friend of mine is really pumped up, however I am somewhat cautious in the pace in change...

We humans are very slow to change. As you say "nudge to the right direction"; best not to expect too much, and we can really appreciate the real (but slow) progress being make.

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US has to seriously reexamine drug policy
As always, it is easier to blame what happening across the border than what happening inside US. The ideal world is that people stop pointing fingers. However, that violates the Law of Human Ego and Foolishness.

One of the worse things of politics are often the politicians themselves do know the ideal solution. However, voters are not smart enough to understand real solutions. Politicians need to survive in his/her career and look after their own interest, and are pretty much forced to play upon foolish voters.

The buzz word is you don't get votes showing charts, numbers, and logic. You get votes by being loud and sensational. When more voters start to demand more charts, numbers, and logic, we have made progress.
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Old 2011-04-29, 01:00   Link #72
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As always, it is easier to blame what happening across the border than what happening inside US. The ideal world is that people stop pointing fingers. However, that violates the Law of Human Ego and Foolishness.
Well, I do think that it's a two way street, but what exactly you think the US needs to do?

Despite it being a two way street, we can't exactly make a Marshal Plan for Mexico to elevate it's economic standards and welfare so that drug money wouldn't be so influential.
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Old 2011-04-29, 01:06   Link #73
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Institute mandatory intelligence and critical thinking tests before voting rights are granted.

Seriously I think America is steadily becoming stupider, and the corporatists, the government and the robber barons want us that way, so of course something like this would never happen. The dumber the general populace is, the easier they are to manipulate.
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Old 2011-04-29, 02:14   Link #74
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Institute mandatory intelligence and critical thinking tests before voting rights are granted.
If only. Political parties thrive on misinformation and policies being too complex for most people to understand. Otherwise fear/negative campaigning tactics wouldn't work. And since they are so prevalent these days, what else would they do to convince people? Effective policy? That'll be the day.

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Seriously I think America is steadily becoming stupider, and the corporatists, the government and the robber barons want us that way, so of course something like this would never happen. The dumber the general populace is, the easier they are to manipulate.
It's not just America, it's global. And it's what the leaders want. A populace that thinks and demands proper reform/investment into long-term resources is the last thing leaders want because they don't have a solution. Hopefully we never reach 1984-like scenarios.


On multiculturalism, Australia isn't perfect. But I do think we do it better than most. You can take a walk through the middle of a major city and see close to every racial demonination under the sun. And it's completely normal. You could be eating over a dozen different styles of food a week. My friends are from a couple of dozen different countries, but they all love Australia. Maybe we're this way because we're a young country that was forced to rely on immigration from early on? *shrug* We have our issues, but I still feel far more welcome and safer within Australia than I probably would anywhere else in the world. And being the creation of a union of Indian and Polish families has not ever been an issue for me.
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Old 2011-04-29, 04:20   Link #75
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All this talk about how Europe is worse off than America makes we wonder the what the hell everyone is talking about. And here I thought it was the other way around. Just how bad is it in Europe compared to the UK exactly?
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Old 2011-04-29, 04:31   Link #76
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All you really need to do is read up up the recent problems with the Muslim immigrants and France, particularly Paris.

They did take certain actions like banning Hijabs (At least in school) if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 2011-04-29, 04:54   Link #77
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No honestly it's not, I don't know whether it's the journalist who didn't do his job properly or the woman who is saying no sense.

I watched all of this with the utmost incomprehension, I know it's easier for them to have more watchers by saying crap but there should be limit. zone of no laws? Dangerous for white people and non muslim people ? Hahahaha.
explain to us the "750 no-go zones" and "sensitive urban zones"

is that where tourists should definitely avoid?

is there one zone that's equivalent to places like Juarez, MX?
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Old 2011-04-29, 06:03   Link #78
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It's not just America, it's global. And it's what the leaders want. A populace that thinks and demands proper reform/investment into long-term resources is the last thing leaders want because they don't have a solution. Hopefully we never reach 1984-like scenarios.
I am more inclined to say we are becoming more Brave New World-like instead of being 1984-like. Both required people being stupid, but the former requires people do not think they are really surrendering their rights without the threat of force. People do not even think they are losing control what is going on through a combination of engineered ignorance and distractions.
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Originally Posted by solomon
Despite it being a two way street, we can't exactly make a Marshal Plan for Mexico to elevate it's economic standards and welfare so that drug money wouldn't be so influential.
While Mexico has its fair share of economic issues, we do not need bail "Marshall Plan" Mexico out because the growth of Mexican economy is not a problem. Mexico does not need foreign intervention to help its economy, and there is no need to worry about Mexico "going communist or fascist." I am highly skeptical intervention will do much help.

How about fixing US education and youth/teenage problems? Most older drug addicts may be hard to fix. However, I think we can do something about stopping younger and future drug addicts. If lesser people buy drugs, the demand from them will naturally decrease. Education is also part of the solution to intolerance, voter ignorance, and stopping the world going Brave New World.

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-04-29 at 06:31.
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Old 2011-04-29, 06:04   Link #79
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One way to look at the future of multiculturalism is Japan's culture.
Sound far fetched?
Well you will not find any culture that had adopted more various culture and still kept a single identity than the Japanese culture.
As far as ancient Chinese, Indian and even Greco Roman culture Japan had adopted, assimilated and made into it's own.
Buddhism, Confucianism and even Christianity for religion and philosophy, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Indian, French, Dutch for cuisines, Chinese for clothing and architecture and many other, hodgepodge mix of various other cultures.
Kimono's formal name is Go Fuku meaning clothes of Wu, Kanji is words of Han, Tempura is temperar in Portuguese meaning deep fry, curry rice is a mix of Indian dish introduced by the British and so on.
If you dig far enough you can find traces of Greek mythology embedded within Japanese mythology such as the uncanny resemblance between the Izanami-Izanagi myth going to the under world and Greek Orpheus and Death of Eurydice myth.
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Old 2011-04-29, 06:26   Link #80
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One way to look at the future of multiculturalism is Japan's culture.
Sound far fetched?
Well you will not find any culture that had adopted more various culture and still kept a single identity than the Japanese culture.
As far as ancient Chinese, Indian and even Greco Roman culture Japan had adopted, assimilated and made into it's own.
Buddhism, Confucianism and even Christianity for religion and philosophy, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Indian, French, Dutch for cuisines, Chinese for clothing and architecture and many other, hodgepodge mix of various other cultures.
Kimono's formal name is Go Fuku meaning clothes of Wu, Kanji is words of Han, Tempura is temperar in Portuguese meaning deep fry, curry rice is a mix of Indian dish introduced by the British and so on.
If you dig far enough you can find traces of Greek mythology embedded within Japanese mythology such as the uncanny resemblance between the Izanami-Izanagi myth going to the under world and Greek Orpheus and Death of Eurydice myth.
Japanese culture is heavily influenced by China - especially during Tang Dynasty - which are literally the Romans of the East. For quite a long time, China is the center of East Asia, so importing ideas that are used in China is fashionable and sensible. As time passed, Europeans surpass Asia economically. 19th century is really the key century that sees Japan surpass China in the world stage - and that change is heavily fueled by European expansion and imperialism in Asia. Things are of course changed now as well. China is back on the top, surpassing Japanese influence in global economy and power.

As a fruit of thought...

I have always pondered what will happen in East Asia if there is an excess of foreign immigrant and minority social problem. I somehow believe the reaction of "locals" may not differ that much with Europeans.

Just like Europe, most of East Asian states are formed under the same concept of nationalism and nation building. The foundation of European and East Asian states are from locals. They are not nations of immigrants (US, Canada etc). The only difference between Europe and Asia is that it actually never been large immigration into East Asia! However, whenever there is a significant minority, one can do see tensions - read Turkic/Tibetan people in China, and Ainu in Japan. When Tibetan, Turkic and Ainu people become "Chinese and Japanese nationals", they are also not on the same economic level of prosperity.

Another large difference between modern East Asia and Europe is that immigration laws of Japan, Korea, and China are by default much tougher to begin with. It is very hard to become Japanese, Korean or Chinese citizen without ancestry unless you are amazing smart or rich.
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