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Old 2011-04-29, 06:33   Link #81
DonQuigleone
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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I think Japan is an interesting case. However I think Japan is also one of the most xenophobic countries in the world, so I don't think it should be held up as any kind of paragon. I think Japan's relationship with the outside world is very superficial.

You always hear stories of Japanese people talking about how unique Japan is for having 4 seasons . Or that the Japanese have some kind of brain structure that makes them different from everyone else ...
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Old 2011-04-29, 06:44   Link #82
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiNoKen View Post
Japanese culture is heavily influenced by China - especially during Tang Dynasty - which are literally the Romans of the East. For quite a long time, China is the center of East Asia, so importing ideas that are used in China is fashionable and sensible. As time passed, Europeans surpass Asia economically. 19th century is really the key century that sees Japan surpass China in the world stage - and that change is heavily fueled by European expansion and imperialism in Asia. Things are of course changed now as well. China is back on the top, surpassing Japanese influence in global economy and power.
Such misconception, yes China was a dominate cultural influence but you'll find many thing that had been lost in China(even at the Tan dynasty such as the myth I posted earlier) that still lives on in Japan and many tradition had not gone through China all together such as oral traditions in it's original form that had been lost all together.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiNoKen View Post
As a fruit of thought...

I have always pondered what will happen in East Asia if there is an excess of foreign immigrant and minority social problem. I somehow believe the reaction of "locals" may not differ that much with Europeans.

Just like Europe, most of East Asian states are formed under the same concept of nationalism and nation building. The foundation of European and East Asian states are from locals. They are not nations of immigrants (US, Canada etc). The only difference between Europe and Asia is that it actually never been large immigration into East Asia! However, whenever there is a significant minority, one can do see tensions - read Turkic/Tibetan people in China, and Ainu in Japan. When Tibetan, Turkic and Ainu people become "Chinese and Japanese nationals", they are also not on the same economic level of prosperity.

Another large difference between modern East Asia and Europe is that immigration laws of Japan, Korea, and China are by default much tougher to begin with. It is very hard to become Japanese, Korean or Chinese citizen without ancestry unless you are amazing smart or rich.
First of all Ainu are not in poverty at the moment, reading into much western human rightist not knowing what they are talking all together.
Another is Japan had so many immigrant in ancient time the whole Hata clan who created Gion Festival of Kyoto are immigrants, the Taira clan are said to be Persians, most of the founders that started poetry in Japan are Koreans. We all know that the Emperor himself is a decedent of a foreign origin based on the royal myths. You just need to look at it in a thousand years span or more to understand in full.

= Edit =
Xenophobic?

I guess you haven't read any of these;

Spoiler for To spare space:
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Last edited by Tri-ring; 2011-04-29 at 07:16.
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Old 2011-04-29, 07:14   Link #83
Tri-ring
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Here is another;


Spoiler for Another to save space:


I have more examples if you wish.
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Old 2011-04-29, 08:06   Link #84
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by solomon View Post
For those politically astute and observant of the news, there have been many events that have lead to the questioning of "Multiculturalism" today.

The Arab Spring has lead to an unraveling of traditional orders and bilateral relations between states and leading to large scale migration.

Many European heads of government have called into question the concept of "Multiculturalism".

The United States has to deal with potential radicalizing muslims on it's shores, not to mention the ever burgeoning Latino population.

I was wondering what various people here of various backgrounds (American, European, Asian) thought Multiculturalism means to them in their countries, in both context of the past and today. Particularly in relation to recent events.
I will not speak as an Asian, or as an Australian.

I would speak as a human who studied some history.

"Traditional cultures" is a lie. It is a convenient lie to make one believe they belong in some unique social group that has being around for aeons. As an example, China likes to pretend it has an unbroken history of 5000 years, when in reality most of the Chinese cultural elements going that far back no longer exists. There was hundreds of different Chinese nations that once existed, with their own language, writing, clothing and food. And they are all gone. But it is so much easier for a Chinese to deny that. Just as King Arthur's historical origins resemble nothing like Medieval Knighthood, and in fact don't act British in any way we would recognise.

Whatever you think is is culturally important as a part of your identity is not as precious as you think. Your ancestors would not see you as one of them, as you are nothing like them. But it is nice to pretend you have a cultural link to the past when it doesn't actually exist.

Cultures change. Cultures mingle. You can try to fight it, but it would not be stopped.
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Old 2011-04-29, 09:17   Link #85
MaiNoKen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
First of all Ainu are not in poverty at the moment, reading into much western human rightist not knowing what they are talking all together.
Another is Japan had so many immigrant in ancient time the whole Hata clan who created Gion Festival of Kyoto are immigrants, the Taira clan are said to be Persians, most of the founders that started poetry in Japan are Koreans. We all know that the Emperor himself is a decedent of a foreign origin based on the royal myths. You just need to look at it in a thousand years span or more to understand in full.
Ainu was economically disadvantaged in the past. Of course, nowadays are different. I am not sure if I can tell an Ainu apart from a Japanese as Ainu has mostly assimilated in Japan. The "assimilation" of Tibetan and Turkic people in China is an extremely sensitive political issue in China. Unlike Ainu, which are basically overcome by force (military and economically) for much longer time, Chinese military control in western borders have always been somewhat lose until Mao.

I also do not buy the argument that Japanese are immigrant people in terms that we can all call ourselves immigrants out from Africa if you are going to 2000+ years history. I consider Europeans and Asians as non-immigrant people as they have been pretty much occupy the same land at least since the Medieval Ages. Within Eurasia, the Turkic people and Mongols settled down around ~1000AD. Well, you can make case when Russians settle across Siberia for the last couple hundred years as well, but that settlement is unlike Turks and Mongols which basically Russians are taking mostly empty Siberian lands. The Mongols and Turks settled near or in where there are plenty of Chinese, Europeans, and Arabs around already. I think 1000 years are long enough, and what-we-called-Japanese have been in Japan for more than 1000 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I will not speak as an Asian, or as an Australian.

I would speak as a human who studied some history.

"Traditional cultures" is a lie. It is a convenient lie to make one believe they belong in some unique social group that has being around for aeons. As an example, China likes to pretend it has an unbroken history of 5000 years, when in reality most of the Chinese cultural elements going that far back no longer exists. There was hundreds of different Chinese nations that once existed, with their own language, writing, clothing and food. And they are all gone. But it is so much easier for a Chinese to deny that. Just as King Arthur's historical origins resemble nothing like Medieval Knighthood, and in fact don't act British in any way we would recognise.

Whatever you think is is culturally important as a part of your identity is not as precious as you think. Your ancestors would not see you as one of them, as you are nothing like them. But it is nice to pretend you have a cultural link to the past when it doesn't actually exist.

Cultures change. Cultures mingle. You can try to fight it, but it would not be stopped.
I will stop short from saying traditional culture do not exists as they do influence the operation of day-to-day life. I will give that the traditional culture is really hard to define quantitatively - I do go through many culture shock when I move from HK to the US; heh, I even find differences between people in the South and with New England.

However, technological differences are small nowadays across the world nowadays due to globalization (unless you go to middle of the Amazon or Congo rainforest).

However, I think traditional differences are hyped up (make larger than they really appears to be) for political reasons - just like the portrayal in 1984.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone
I think Japan is an interesting case. However I think Japan is also one of the most xenophobic countries in the world, so I don't think it should be held up as any kind of paragon. I think Japan's relationship with the outside world is very superficial.
I have quite a few Japanese friends. What I find is that while there are nicest people, they often do not know how to communicate with foreigners - they did not know how would a foreigner would react if they say something. I think I make them more comfortable with me because I understand some Japanese, and we often share common hobbies (Otaku banzai! Ha!!). I can easily see that fear translates to being xenophobic and isolationist. Japanese folks have a tendency not to like to offend (they are really politically correct). The simple solution is to shut the door.

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-04-29 at 09:30.
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Old 2011-04-29, 09:19   Link #86
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With regards to the word "culture", please remember that it is something that is learned. If there are enough teachers to pass it down to the next generation, the next generation will share the same "culture".
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Old 2011-04-29, 09:23   Link #87
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Institute mandatory intelligence and critical thinking tests before voting rights are granted.

Seriously I think America is steadily becoming stupider, and the corporatists, the government and the robber barons want us that way, so of course something like this would never happen. The dumber the general populace is, the easier they are to manipulate.

However this would turn a nation into a Polyachy if I understand it correctly.

Also I recall that the South did this from time to time to deny voter rights.
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Old 2011-04-29, 09:51   Link #88
sneaker
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
All this talk about how Europe is worse off than America makes we wonder the what the hell everyone is talking about. And here I thought it was the other way around. Just how bad is it in Europe compared to the UK exactly?
When I said Europe I also meant the UK. I actually think that the UK is ahead (read: worse off) than the rest of Europe at this point in time.

Muhammed is already the most popular name there, I remember Geert Wilders being denied entry, etc.

A random selection of articles I came across (inc. tabloids, not all 100% true or severe, of course):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ix-months.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...50-Labour.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...89-decade.html
http://www.sify.com/news/1-in-3-brit...wmEhjhief.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ltural-UK.html
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1703/uk-ant...muslim-schools
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...migration.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=297_1281133764
http://www.independent.ie/world-news...n-2468396.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...our-Party.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...haria-law.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Blackpool.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...ictimised.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lim-girls.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-beaten.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-12431210
http://tundratabloids.com/2011/01/br...di-outfit.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...1a2ce7d09f.3e1
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view...tholic-school/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2135467.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-schools.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10596808
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-RSS&ATTR=News
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...dog-right.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-22336550/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0nizUH0HY
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nd-faiths.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ray-aisle.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...itivities.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Afghans.html
...

I could go on for hours, but I think you get it.
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Old 2011-04-29, 09:57   Link #89
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
However this would turn a nation into a Polyachy if I understand it correctly.

Also I recall that the South did this from time to time to deny voter rights.
Indeed, who would define who's "intelligent".

Besides, democracy is the government flowing from the people. It forces people to take part in their own governance, even if it means choosing to vote for a different person next time. And if the people elect a bad government it's their own fault. People have to be responsible for their own lives and decisions, if they choose a bad government it's their mistake. They actually have some kind of ability to change things. They have to have the freedom to both succeed, but also to fail, fail magnificently even. If we were governed by perfect robots, we would gradually cease to have any reason to exist at all.

It also means those in government are never secure, they can never ignore the will of the general population. That's a good thing in my opinion. Countries with a healthy cycle of governments getting voted out tend to have less corruption, less cronyism and a less cosy relationship among those at the top. It's not perfect, politicians still have ties to industry, but at least it isn't a single group monopolising power. Instead the groups have to struggle among themselves, and have to try to get the public on their side.

Even if it's demogoguery, at least they have to make an effort, and it prevents some of the worst excesses people in power tend to have. Of course there's always Silvio Berlusconis :P .

I think publicity is also a much better means to choose governments then, say, inherited privilege, taking power in a military coup d'etat, or knowing just the right people to reach the top of a bureaucracy.

@Sneaker: The telegraph and BBC are fine, but the Sun? Daily Mail? I wouldn't trust them further then I could throw my mother, and that's not very far. Also I think it's commonly believed by the police that a large proportion in the uptick in crime is because the police force is doing a better job, finding out about more crime that would previously have gone unreported. Ireland has far less immigrants then the UK, is very similiar culturally(particularly regarding alcohol) , and we have pretty much the same crime levels too. I cry foul.
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Old 2011-04-29, 10:07   Link #90
sneaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
@Sneaker: The telegraph and BBC are fine, but the Sun? Daily Mail? I wouldn't trust them further then I could throw my mother, and that's not very far. Also I think it's commonly believed by the police that a large proportion in the uptick in crime is because the police force is doing a better job, finding out about more crime that would previously have gone unreported. Ireland has far less immigrants then the UK, is very similiar culturally(particularly regarding alcohol) , and we have pretty much the same crime levels too. I cry foul.
I know, I know. Just filter out the relevant information and keep in mind that some articles are just totally crap. Still a lot shit going on. I had some more articles from non-tabloids, but they weren't in English.
You think this was common in London or is in Ireland?
Saying that the police got better? I don't believe it. I can only talk for my country of course, but the number of policemen is way too low and they are totally overworked. More like more and more crimes go unnoticed, esp. when people stop turning to the police because of mistrust (both immigrants and locals).
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Old 2011-04-29, 10:38   Link #91
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
I know, I know. Just filter out the relevant information and keep in mind that some articles are just totally crap. Still a lot shit going on. I had some more articles from non-tabloids, but they weren't in English.
You think this was common in London or is in Ireland?
Saying that the police got better? I don't believe it. I can only talk for my country of course, but the number of policemen is way too low and they are totally overworked. More like more and more crimes go unnoticed, esp. when people stop turning to the police because of mistrust (both immigrants and locals).
We get plenty of crime, Ireland is certainly no haven where you can walk the street free of all worry. I wouldn't be caught dead walking in parts of central Dublin late at night, and it's not the immigrant areas, those are fine, it's "the natives". We call em knackers, scangers, you might refer to them as yobs. My mom once drove into one of these apartment complexes and had a stone put through her window.

But let's talk statistics. This document is put out by the British Crime Statistics office, here is their section on homicide, which I think is a decent indicator of crime levels (you're talking about stabbings after all).

If you look at page 12, it has an international comparison of homicide levels, Ireland is listed at 1.45 homicides /100,000 people/year, and England&Wales at 1.43, basically the same. Furthermore, in the same page it shows scotland, which has far less immigrants then England at a much higher 2.17. In fact the country that tops the list for homicide is Finland, and it actually has the lowest number of foreign inhabitants in the entire EU. Meanwhile Germany, which has a really high percentage of foreigner has a low 0.9, and France 1.46, about the same as britain in Ireland.

I think that shows that number of immigrants doesn't really corelate with levels of crime. However, crimes are far likely to be reported in the tabloids if committed by a foreigner. The average knacker living in a council estate who stabs someone from the gang next door doesn't really make for an exciting story, as the Pakistani Youths terrorizing an innocent English neighbourhood.

EDIT: Or how about Prison statistics? According to this, 84% of the male prison population of England is white, meanwhile Wikipedia says about 91% of Britain's population is White. I think this shows that British minorities are not particularly any more likely to commit crime then anyone else. In fact notably the only over represented groups are blacks, which makes sense considering that British Blacks are over represented among the poor. Meanwhile "asians" where Indians, Pakistanis and middle easterns would be classified have very low numbers in prison.

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-04-29 at 10:52.
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Old 2011-04-29, 11:08   Link #92
sneaker
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Ok, we don't have any "knackers" here. So the situation really is different.
And yes, the number of people actually getting killed isn't very high here, and is in fact decreasing, while it is increasing in Ireland.

But people are afraid to use public transportation, if you go out at night there are many immigrants out there beating up people just for fun. Many clubs have stopped letting in groups of immigrants, because they are too violent. There have been Turkish football clubs that German clubs don't want to play against anymore, because they turn violent (and I mean beating up the referee, not fouls). It's not like you can't go out at night anymore, but it is definitely less safe than in the past. Things like attacking firemen were unheard of in the past. The number of people attacking the police (esp. in mobs) is increasing fast. Police now take at least two cars when entering specific quarters, one crew to deal with the issue they were called for and the second crew to protect the cars.
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Old 2011-04-29, 11:22   Link #93
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Ok, we don't have any "knackers" here. So the situation really is different.
And yes, the number of people actually getting killed isn't very high here, and is in fact decreasing, while it is increasing in Ireland.

But people are afraid to use public transportation, if you go out at night there are many immigrants out there beating up people just for fun. Many clubs have stopped letting in groups of immigrants, because they are too violent. There have been Turkish football clubs that German clubs don't want to play against anymore, because they turn violent (and I mean beating up the referee, not fouls). It's not like you can't go out at night anymore, but it is definitely less safe than in the past. Things like attacking firemen were unheard of in the past. The number of people attacking the police (esp. in mobs) is increasing fast. Police now take at least two cars when entering specific quarters, one crew to deal with the issue they were called for and the second crew to protect the cars.
I don't know a whole lot about Germany, but I think this is pretty good reading. Basically it says that the big problem is poverty among second and third generation migrants, and also that foreigners are also over-represented as victims. Also certain violent subcultures in germany (neo-nazi skinheads in East Germany) have equally high crime rates.

But I bet you if there were no turks, or others, in Germany you'd still have similiar crime rates, it would just be different people who are poor. Germans ascended into the middle class while you left immigrants to do the unskilled work. I see nothing inherently wrong with this, but the natural consequence of poverty in crime.

I think that wherever you go, there's equally high levels of crime regardless. And anyway, from pretty much every international comparison on crime rates Germany still ranks near the top, you've got it pretty good. If so many people are getting beaten up, then why are so few actually killed? Most of the homocide statistics in Britain and Ireland are as a result of knife stabbings and the like, not pre-meditated "TV-Style" Murder. I could probably try and hunt down assault statistics, and it would probably show Germany in a pretty good light too.
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Old 2011-04-29, 11:45   Link #94
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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
When I said Europe I also meant the UK. I actually think that the UK is ahead (read: worse off) than the rest of Europe at this point in time.

Muhammed is already the most popular name there, I remember Geert Wilders being denied entry, etc.

A random selection of articles I came across (inc. tabloids, not all 100% true or severe, of course):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ix-months.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...50-Labour.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...89-decade.html
http://www.sify.com/news/1-in-3-brit...wmEhjhief.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ltural-UK.html
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1703/uk-ant...muslim-schools
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...migration.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=297_1281133764
http://www.independent.ie/world-news...n-2468396.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...our-Party.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...haria-law.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Blackpool.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...ictimised.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lim-girls.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-beaten.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-12431210
http://tundratabloids.com/2011/01/br...di-outfit.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...1a2ce7d09f.3e1
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view...tholic-school/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2135467.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-schools.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10596808
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-RSS&ATTR=News
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...dog-right.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-22336550/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0nizUH0HY
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nd-faiths.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ray-aisle.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...itivities.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Afghans.html
...

I could go on for hours, but I think you get it.
In all honesty I don't trust anything out of British newspapers anymore. Especially the Daily Mail. But I'll have a look.
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Old 2011-04-29, 11:49   Link #95
sneaker
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Yes, batteries may also be relatively low in an international comparison, but that's no reason to accept any increase. And I don't think we'd have the same crime without immigrants. And yes, there's a correlation between poverty and crime - the question is: why are we letting in groups of people, which are known to perform very poorly in our society? If we know they can't compete with the locals, then don't let them in in the first place. The average immigrant is already more likely to be criminal and to live on welfare than the average native. But if we look at specific immigrant groups it's getting terrifying.

Here's a comparison which also includes Ireland, and violent crimes in Ireland have gone up by over 60% between 2002 and 2008:
http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/inter...st_58_2010.pdf

You think that's OK?
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Old 2011-04-29, 11:50   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
In all honesty I don't trust anything out of British newspapers anymore. Especially the Daily Mail. But I'll have a look.
Yeah, sorry for that. I searched for the English articles and mostly tabloids turn up, while in German there's far more serious papers. Always take it with a grain of salt.
It's more of a random selection of British crazyness than scientific research.
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Old 2011-04-29, 20:11   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Slippery Slope argument. Does that mean anything that can be taken to an extreme is inherently bad? Does that include political ideologies?
You misunderstand me; I mean the exact opposite. That extremism can only be bad if the underlying philosophy is also bad.

How many people do you think an extremist pacifist would kill?
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Old 2011-04-29, 20:15   Link #98
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You misunderstand me; I mean the exact opposite. That extremism can only be bad if the underlying philosophy is also bad.

How many people do you think an extremist pacifist would kill?
Ah but an extremist pacifist would probably die as he couldn't eat anything. Can't attack any living thing. Including attacking plants to harvest them...

Extreme Pacifism would be pretty absurd.
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Old 2011-04-29, 20:57   Link #99
Tri-ring
The Censor Bat
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Ah but an extremist pacifist would probably die as he couldn't eat anything. Can't attack any living thing. Including attacking plants to harvest them...

Extreme Pacifism would be pretty absurd.
Tell that to Buddha.
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Old 2011-04-29, 23:50   Link #100
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Yes, batteries may also be relatively low in an international comparison, but that's no reason to accept any increase. And I don't think we'd have the same crime without immigrants. And yes, there's a correlation between poverty and crime - the question is: why are we letting in groups of people, which are known to perform very poorly in our society? If we know they can't compete with the locals, then don't let them in in the first place. The average immigrant is already more likely to be criminal and to live on welfare than the average native. But if we look at specific immigrant groups it's getting terrifying.

Here's a comparison which also includes Ireland, and violent crimes in Ireland have gone up by over 60% between 2002 and 2008:
http://www.bka.de/lageberichte/inter...st_58_2010.pdf

You think that's OK?
Why are you letting ANY group of people who are known to perform very poorly in your society stay in your country period? I am not just talking about foreigners, but your natural born citizens too.

What is good enough for an immigrant is good enough for a local. If a foreigner needs to uphold a minimum level of decency to become a citizen, then wouldn't it be better to make that a requirement for everybody?

Committing a violent crime = lose your citizenship and kicked out of your own country. Just take away the citizenship of all criminals in your prisons and dump them somewhere else.

If you are serious about removing bad influences from your society, you should not restrict the law to foreigners. Any less than that and you are just paying lip service.

Here in Australia there was talks of a "citizenship test" to make sure immigrants support Australian Values, but it is found that many local Australians can't even pass the test themselves. Hypocrisy at its best.
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2011-04-30 at 01:19.
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