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Old 2011-09-02, 22:59   Link #141
ahelo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Nah, I think the OP has a point. At least 90% of all shoujo has to do with a stupid high school girl that wants a boyfriend. She's usually dumb and the guy is smart, handsome, and rich so she has to listen to everything he says.
That's the stereotype people always gun in shojo. It is definitely true in a lot of cases though but not always. I highly doubt the 90% statistic since there are a lot of Shojo that I've read that aren't like this.
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Old 2011-09-03, 12:22   Link #142
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Nah, I think the OP has a point. At least 90% of all shoujo has to do with a stupid high school girl that wants a boyfriend. She's usually dumb and the guy is smart, handsome, and rich so she has to listen to everything he says.
90% With A Stupid Story Like THAT!?

That Is Absolutely Not True.

Because I'm so annoyed with that, I have half a mind to post every single series that Is NOT like that.
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:59   Link #143
DonQuigleone
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And for every 1 you post, we can probably find 9. Or at least 5.

I like a lot of Shojo, and I don't think feminist means women acting like men, feminism is all about women being equal to men after all, women being equal to men only by acting like them seems like getting the message wrong... And I don't think Shonen is guiltless either (in that it just at best ignores women).

But a lot of the shojo produced, and certainly most of the mainstream stuff is sexist. Shojo is a big enough genre that it's still easy enough to find non-sexist stuff, but it doesn't change that many of the underlying tropes of Shojo are sexist in themselves. I could go into further detail about the common sexist shojo details, but I'll leave it to someone with more time and better knowledge.

However, I do not mean this at all as an indictment of all shojo, just that most shojo is sexist. Just like a lot of teen magazines over here are often sexist as well, in their own way. But there are also good examples of both as well which aren't sexist.
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Old 2011-09-03, 23:05   Link #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
And for every 1 you post, we can probably find 9. Or at least 5.
Bet you can't. I've read and seen a TON of shoujo. It is my favorite genre. I read BOTH Ribon and Nakayoshi. We're talking several years' worth. Do you have any idea how many full, ongoing series, and one-shot short stories that would amount to? I've seen stuff aimed at girls from four years old to sixteen. I've seen mainstream, semi-popular, and classics to underground stuff nobody's ever even heard of (that includes scanlations). I've seen nearly every sub-genre-fantasy, romance, action, drama, horror, yuri, and slice of life. I have volumes and volumes of raw shoujo manga on my shelf. Do you want to try me? I'm up for the challenge. And I am always eager to crush a challenger who bites off more than they can chew and people who try debating with me over something they know less about will soon learn this.


Quote:
But a lot of the shojo produced, and certainly most of the mainstream stuff is sexist.
Sexist? How? Please explain.
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Old 2011-09-04, 05:36   Link #145
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Nah, I think the OP has a point. At least 90% of all shoujo has to do with a stupid high school girl that wants a boyfriend. She's usually dumb and the guy is smart, handsome, and rich so she has to listen to everything he says.
And a dumb guy surrounded by super-smart and super-powerful girls never happens in fiction aimed at guys, right?

1. Make the main character easier to empathize with by making them more than a little imperfect.
2. Make the secondary characters as attractive as possible.

This has been an established way of writing romance since forever. Apparently the number of people eating this up is larger than of those suspecting ulterior, sexist motives...
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Old 2011-09-04, 09:03   Link #146
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Bet you can't. I've read and seen a TON of shoujo. It is my favorite genre. I read BOTH Ribon and Nakayoshi. We're talking several years' worth. Do you have any idea how many full, ongoing series, and one-shot short stories that would amount to? I've seen stuff aimed at girls from four years old to sixteen. I've seen mainstream, semi-popular, and classics to underground stuff nobody's ever even heard of (that includes scanlations). I've seen nearly every sub-genre-fantasy, romance, action, drama, horror, yuri, and slice of life. I have volumes and volumes of raw shoujo manga on my shelf. Do you want to try me? I'm up for the challenge. And I am always eager to crush a challenger who bites off more than they can chew and people who try debating with me over something they know less about will soon learn this.
Individually we'd have trouble, but collectively, we probably would have no problems

Quote:
Sexist? How? Please explain.
Well first you have to look at the most common setups shojo manga tend to have.

Generally speaking the main points of commonality shojo manga posseses is the male lead. Almost all Male leads contain most of these traits:
*Smart
*Attractive
*Rich
*Domineering
*"Troubled"
*Exploitative of women

Usually the Shojo lead is average, poor and balanced. Usually they are also pretty submissive, and even if they start off domineering, they usually end out submissive to their man by the end (a good is example is Kaichou wa Maid sama).

In fact, this pattern of the smart confident girl being "domesticated" by the guy is probably the most sexist part, it basically says that girls have to change themselves to suit a guy, and girls are naturally submissive around men.

You get trouble from the male lead's side as well. Firstly the "Smart, Attractive and Rich" Male lead automatically puts the male on a superior level to the girl. In itself this isn't so bad, you often see the same pattern repeated in Shonen manga but reversed. But it usually establishes an implicit "inferiority" of the female lead, that she is "lucky" to get his attention.

The other problem is the fact that a lot of these male leads are Domineering, Troubled and broaddly exploitative of women. Generally the guy is a big giant dick in the early portions, often dating multiple girls at once. Not only that but usually the guy actually forces himself on the girl towards the beginning, even almost raping her. Generally his misbehaviour is somehow justified by the fact that he has a "troubled past" usually involving issues with his mother. In the course of the manga the girl "heals" him, and gradually tames him, in return for submitting herself to him. This encourages a very disfunctional fantasy that is very frequent among women with abusive boyfriends, IE that his abusiveness is somehow her fault for being a bad girlfriend, and that if she stays with him she can "heal" him, when in reality her behaviour actually just continues to feed into his domineering personality and justifies his abusiveness, when he's abusive it's "her" fault. This abusive pattern can also be prominently seen in Twilight.

Generally a lot of Shojo manga perpetuates sexist gender roles by always assigning the girl the passive role in the relationship. It's almost always the guy with the initiative, the guy "seducing" her, and the guy pushing the relationship to the next level, be it kissing, groping or sex. How often does Shojo Manga feature the girl seducing the guy? You will see the girl try and please her potential target (usually by making lunch or something...) but rarely do you see the girl actively seduce the guy. The girl rarely pushes the relationship towards kissing, groping or sex. All the initiative comes from the male side.

Now not all shojo contains those properties, but most shojo contain a substantial proportion of them. I would put at the extreme sexist end manga like Honey X Honey Drops and Kyou Koi wa Hajimemasu (both by Minami Kanan...), where the male leads pretty much do rape the female leads, and at the extreme unsexist end I'd put something like Kimi no Todoke, where I can't really think of anything objectionable occuring.

Usually the worst Shojo Manga is also in the "smut" category.
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Old 2011-09-04, 15:21   Link #147
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Well first you have to look at the most common setups shojo manga tend to have.

Generally speaking the main points of commonality shojo manga posseses is the male lead. Almost all Male leads contain most of these traits:
*Smart
*Attractive
*Rich
*Domineering
*"Troubled"
*Exploitative of women
One who has not read more than one or two subgenres of shoujo manga is not permitted to use the words "almost all" when it comes to anything. I'm sorry.


Quote:
The other problem is the fact that a lot of these male leads are Domineering, Troubled and broadly exploitative of women. Generally the guy is a big giant dick in the early portions, often dating multiple girls at once.
I have read probably ONE shoujo manga where the guy is like that: Moe Kare. It was an entertaining read nonetheless. Just not realistic because dating a boy like that is just way too dangerous. Actually Moe Kare is an odd one. It has a ton of cliches that I dislike. Yet I really enjoyed reading it. Why did I like it so much? *shrugs*

Quote:
Not only that but usually the guy actually forces himself on the girl towards the beginning, even almost raping her.
I do my best to stay away from that crap.

Quote:
This abusive pattern can also be prominently seen in Twilight.
I f*cking hate Twilight with the burning passion of a thousand suns for the record. It disgusts and worries me to see it being as popular as it is. Every parent of a teenaged girl who owns a copy of that filth should immediately snatch it away and throw it in an incinerator.

Quote:
How often does Shojo Manga feature the girl seducing the guy?
I've seen it QUITE A BIT.
And it's awesome. Very hot stuff. Watashi Ni XX Shinsai takes the crown jewel for this:
Spoiler:

Don't believe me?
Spoiler:



Quote:
Now not all shojo contains those properties, but most shojo contain a substantial proportion of them.
Now you really can't convince me that you've even READ "most shoujo" with that above post.

Quote:
I would put at the extreme sexist end manga like Honey X Honey Drops and Kyou Koi wa Hajimemasu (both by Minami Kanan...), where the male leads pretty much do rape the female leads,
Thank you, I now know which titles to avoid like the plague.

Quote:
Usually the worst Shojo Manga is also in the "smut" category.
Um........duh?

All of the bad cliches you have stated mostly refer to shoujo targeted at an older demographic a.k.a. SMUT.

I am going to educate you, my friend. I figured it would have to come to this.

Grade School Shoujo Genre: This genre involves little girls aged from 5 to 12.
The themes of this genre focus mostly on friendship. There may be a bit of a puppy romancewith either her childhood friend, a boy she fights with, or a rival of the opposite sex. But the story certainly does not FOCUS on the girl's love life. She is usually too young and is still trying to figure out her identity and understand the challenges that are thrown at her.

Nurse Angel Ririka SOS
Card Captor Sakura
Fushigiboshi Futago Hime
Shugo Chara
Full Moon Wo Sagashite
Kodomo No Omocha
Fancy Lala
Aishiteruze Baby
Gakuen Alice
Otona Ni Nattsu
Akazukin ChaCha


Middle School Shoujo Genre:
Girl is a bit more aware of boys now, however, she spends more time arguing with him because they are both too immature to just come out and say they like each other. Depending on the genre, this girl also has lots of boy-unrelated problems. Some of these titles do not contain romance AT ALL.

Daa!Daa!Daa!
Ashita No Nadja
Kaitou Saint Tail
Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon
Princess Tutu
Watashi Ni XX Shinasai!
Koko Ni Iru Yo
Magic Knights Rayearth
The Thirteenth is Friday?
Peter Pan Syndrome
Kero Kero Chime
Maigo No Kemono-tachi
Mama Colle
Ahiru
Million Girl
Kamichama Karin
Love Wan
MagicalxMiracle
Sakurahime Kaden

High School Shoujo Genre:
There are wrong ways to do this genre and there are RIGHT ways when
it comes to the sexist stereotype: "All I want is a boyfriend who is superior to me".
THESE particular titles avoid this stereotype:
HARD.

Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne
Time Stranger KYOKO
Lovely Complex
W-Juliet
Kareshi Kanojo No Jijou
Momo
Nagatachou Strawberry
Saboten No Himitsu
Shin Shirayuki Densetsu Pretear
Petite Princess Yucie
Shoujo Kakumei Utena
GDGDOGS
Tears of a Lamb
Bloody Kiss
Mugen Spiral
Fruits Basket (YES, TOORU DAMN STRIGHT AVOIDS THIS STEREOTYPE. READ THE ENTIRE MANGA PLEASE)
Ouran High School Host Club
Skip Beat
V.B. Rose
Kaleido Star
Star Blacks

Hopefully this will open up everyone's minds a bit. It is COMPLETELY unfair to say "Most shoujo is anti-feminist" when all you have read is SMUT.
YES, shoujo smut titles I have read are anti-feminist. Hell if I know why it's so freakin' popular. I'll never understand.

For the record, here are some authors I do not particularly care for:

Shinjo Mayu
Yuu Watase
Wataru Yoshizumi (she's not that bad but her heroines are annoying. lol)
Whoever wrote Hot Gimmick
Whoever wrote Love Monster

*Pretty much whoever writes about a girl trapped in what is clearly an abusive relationship, yet she claims to "love" him so much.
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Old 2011-09-04, 17:55   Link #148
DonQuigleone
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I'll admit to not being an avid reader of Shoujo (which is why I declined to go much further earlier).

That said, I think when most of us are here referring to Shojo we aren't referring as much to Shoujo aimed at younger readers, so much as Shoujo aimed at older readers, the ones that you have noted can be quite sexist. Certainly that was what I meant, in this context I wasn't referring as much to the Cardcaptor Sakuras and Shugo Charas of Manga.

So I should correct my earlier statement to be "90% of Romantic Shoujo Manga is sexist". I made a somewhat noobish mistake of making the assumption that all Shojo Manga is Romantic, which is, of course, not true, just like not all Shonen Manga is action.

You also would have to agree that even if the above is incorrect (maybe it's not 90%, maybe it's 50%, maybe 30%), there is still a substantial portion of sexist shoujo romance manga out there, and further more, many of those titles are disturbingly popular, like Twilight. I'd also contend that these titles form a majority of the shoujo titles that end out being licensed for distribution in the US.

I do think it is a significant problem in Shojo manga. And I find it strange that so many girls like to read such things.
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Old 2011-09-04, 20:37   Link #149
Morisato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cytrus View Post
And a dumb guy surrounded by super-smart and super-powerful girls never happens in fiction aimed at guys, right?

1. Make the main character easier to empathize with by making them more than a little imperfect.
2. Make the secondary characters as attractive as possible.

This has been an established way of writing romance since forever. Apparently the number of people eating this up is larger than of those suspecting ulterior, sexist motives...
Who said there weren't shounens with role reversals? The difference being only a fraction of shounen are like that compared to most of shoujo.

It's hard to find a shoujo that's not a romance... and even hard to find one that doesn't have a dumb girl with a smart guy.

There's also to consider that most shoujo take place in a high school setting with very generic character designs (I think there's maybe 4-5 styles that make up 90% of shoujo with a few exceptions that have unique art). Shounen has a lot more varied art styles, plot, mythos, setting, etc.
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Old 2011-09-04, 22:23   Link #150
DonQuigleone
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I don't know, 3/4 of Shonen consists of some hot blooded kid saying "I WANT TO BE STRONGER! I MUST BE THE STRONGEST NINJA/PIRATE/FOOTBALLER/MANGAKA EVER!"

I'll give you that there is more varied art styles in Shonen, but when you go beyond the aesthetics Shonen is very repititive. Introduce new Rival-> fight rival and lose -> train -> Fight rival again, tensely -> Talk about Power of friendship -> Win -> Introduce New Rival etc. Rinse and Repeat.

That's not so say Shojo is immune from formula either, but I wouldn't really elevate one above the other. In the end it really comes down to taste.

Myself, I like neither and prefer Seinen and Josei. There's the occasional Shonen or Shojo that elevates itself above the pack, otherwise I prefer fare aimed at older people.
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Old 2011-09-05, 01:11   Link #151
Chiibi
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Quote:
I'll admit to not being an avid reader of Shoujo (which is why I declined to go much further earlier).
...............
*facepalm*
Then it is best to not get involved in such discussions at all.....

Why do members here insist on debating about things on which they have limited knowledge to begin with!? All that does is piss off the folks who actually know the material!
If you really want to share your opinion, you should express it in this way:

"90% of Shoujo Manga that I've read is sexist".
See? Sounds much better now that you've included your personal experience.

Quote:
"90% of Romantic Shoujo Manga is sexist"
That's STILL going overboard.

Romantic=/=smut.

"90% of SMUT Shoujo Manga is sexist"

There you go. Now it actually holds some truth to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post

It's hard to find a shoujo that's not a romance... and even hard to find one that doesn't have a dumb girl with a smart guy.
Not true at all. I just listed a bunch.
Take only ONE example: Saboten No Himitsu. The girl is brilliant and her boyfriend is an idiot. Not only does it take him forever to realize she likes him and he likes her but she even has to tutor him. But he hates studying and he has no plan for his future. In the end they separate when the girl decides to go to a major university...however they still keep in touch with a long-distance relationship. The manga ends there.

Like I said, that is only ONE example. There are lots of others.


Quote:
There's also to consider that most shoujo take place in a high school setting with very generic character designs
That's not really true either.
Quote:
I'd also contend that these titles form a majority of the shoujo titles that end out being licensed for distribution in the US.
Which titles are you talking about? o_o The only ones that fit your description of "sexist" that come to my mind are Kaikan Phrase and Hot Gimmick.

I don't know what you guys have been reading nowadays but I think you need to read better shoujo manga titles that don't suck. o_O lol I highly recommend all the ones I just listed.

Quote:
There's the occasional Shonen or Shojo that elevates itself above the pack, otherwise I prefer fare aimed at older people.
I dunno....>_> it seems like the older the shoujo demographic gets, the smuttier it gets, and the more it sucks.

Quote:
I do think it is a significant problem in Shojo manga. And I find it strange that so many girls like to read such things.
I agree, like I said, I really don't get it myself. But shoujo is not the only thing to blame. Like we covered, there is also the Twitlight garbage but even before that, lots of romance novels for women are just plain trashy.
I guess they like it because it excites them? Dunno. I guess it's women's version of porn. As for me, I need way more than fictional, over-exaggerated sex to charm me into reading anything.
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Old 2011-09-05, 01:37   Link #152
Morisato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't know, 3/4 of Shonen consists of some hot blooded kid saying "I WANT TO BE STRONGER! I MUST BE THE STRONGEST NINJA/PIRATE/FOOTBALLER/MANGAKA EVER!"

I'll give you that there is more varied art styles in Shonen, but when you go beyond the aesthetics Shonen is very repititive. Introduce new Rival-> fight rival and lose -> train -> Fight rival again, tensely -> Talk about Power of friendship -> Win -> Introduce New Rival etc. Rinse and Repeat.

That's not so say Shojo is immune from formula either, but I wouldn't really elevate one above the other. In the end it really comes down to taste.

Myself, I like neither and prefer Seinen and Josei. There's the occasional Shonen or Shojo that elevates itself above the pack, otherwise I prefer fare aimed at older people.
Although it's true that most shounen consists of hot blooded main characters fighting to protect the world, friends, defeat evil, etc. The general formula is relatively repetitive as well. There are a lot of the same character archetypes.

The bolded part is key. Ninja, pirate, footballer are distinct. Average high school girl and super rich bishounen is not.

Do you know what sets one shounen from the other? It's the world that they reside in (the mythos). Let's take Bleach, Naruto, One Piece as examples. Yes, they all have the hot blooded main character and some special organization. But the backstory and history of the worlds are so different. Shinigamis, Zanpakutou and Soul Society, Ninjas, various jutsus and references to Shinto/Buddhism/Taoism, Pirates and some other stuff (I don't read One Piece). The expansive worlds that the authors create with the various powers/abilities, character relationships with each other, etc. take a lot of imagination to create and keep consistent.

Air Gear with their world of suped up roller skates, D.Gray-Man with the Church and Noah thing, Fairy Tail with the mages and guilds, Beelzebub and the demons, Shaman King with the shamans, etc. You know what I mean.

But shoujo? 90% of it has the same or similar art, high school setting, generic character designs, etc. Backstory or mythos? Maybe the school is for super rich elite kids (that's unique...). The setting is forgettable and has nothing to build upon. You're don't really have a reason to care about the "world". One could say that shoujo is more "character driven" which is why the setting is so generic and forgettable (basically, there's no plot, it's all drama between characters). But then again, most of the drama is pretty repetitive.
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Old 2011-09-05, 02:15   Link #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
But shoujo? 90% of it has the same or similar art, high school setting, generic character designs, etc. Backstory or mythos? Maybe the school is for super rich elite kids (that's unique...). The setting is forgettable and has nothing to build upon. You're don't really have a reason to care about the "world". One could say that shoujo is more "character driven" which is why the setting is so generic and forgettable (basically, there's no plot, it's all drama between characters). But then again, most of the drama is pretty repetitive.
Now I've read far fewer shojo series than Chiibi. (And almost half of them are from Arina Tanemura).
But plenty of shojo series have unique settings.

Like the Legend of Princess Sakura is a magical girl series set in the Heien period with links to the Story of the Bamboo Cutter.
Full Moon has Shinigami like Bleach and serious stories about grief and death but it's afterlife makes far more sense.
Time Stranger Kyoko is set in a fantastic future and Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne was a serious magical girl series years before Madoka was ever conceptualized.

Even manga set in schools like La Corda d'Oro are unique in their themes such as music and what it means to enjoy music.
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Old 2011-09-05, 07:02   Link #154
Irenicus
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I may not completely accept Chiibi's defense of the shoujo manga -- there are indeed repetitive themes that run across many of them that can irk pretty horribly if you read a lot of them at once, and there are many generic shoujo manga out there, perhaps a bit overexposed too (someone seems to make it their biz'ness scanlating as many as possible, lol) -- but she is essentially right. There's plenty of diversity in shoujo manga, and someone who hasn't read many of them has no right to criticize it with that broad stereotyping so many of the fellow otaku posting here like to do.

Seriously, do you like it when some idiot says anime is nothing but hentai, boobs and tentacles and shit? Do you think that's fair?

Do you think that's true?

You people are arguing with the arrogance -- pardon, confidence -- of the ignorant, in the same way that, I suspect, you do not at all appreciate when an outsider insults anime, or shounen manga, or whatever it is you like and is experienced in.
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Old 2011-09-05, 08:36   Link #155
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Although it's true that most shounen consists of hot blooded main characters fighting to protect the world, friends, defeat evil, etc. The general formula is relatively repetitive as well. There are a lot of the same character archetypes.

The bolded part is key. Ninja, pirate, footballer are distinct. Average high school girl and super rich bishounen is not.

Do you know what sets one shounen from the other? It's the world that they reside in (the mythos). Let's take Bleach, Naruto, One Piece as examples. Yes, they all have the hot blooded main character and some special organization. But the backstory and history of the worlds are so different. Shinigamis, Zanpakutou and Soul Society, Ninjas, various jutsus and references to Shinto/Buddhism/Taoism, Pirates and some other stuff (I don't read One Piece). The expansive worlds that the authors create with the various powers/abilities, character relationships with each other, etc. take a lot of imagination to create and keep consistent.

Air Gear with their world of suped up roller skates, D.Gray-Man with the Church and Noah thing, Fairy Tail with the mages and guilds, Beelzebub and the demons, Shaman King with the shamans, etc. You know what I mean.

But shoujo? 90% of it has the same or similar art, high school setting, generic character designs, etc. Backstory or mythos? Maybe the school is for super rich elite kids (that's unique...). The setting is forgettable and has nothing to build upon. You're don't really have a reason to care about the "world". One could say that shoujo is more "character driven" which is why the setting is so generic and forgettable (basically, there's no plot, it's all drama between characters). But then again, most of the drama is pretty repetitive.
The settings in a lot of Shonen are pretty interchangeable. If you switch the setting in a lot of Shonen Manga, and just change the words a little, you come out with essentially the same thing every time. The settings themselves are often extremely similiar where one particular thing is taken ultra seriously (some frivolous game) OR where there is some form of organisation fighting some other greater Evil, or where they're searching for some kind of macguffin. However the setting is formulated, it always comes down to a "I must get stronger" cycle.

That's not to say the variety of settings isn't a plus in Shonen's favour, but I'd much prefer more variety in Characterization, Language, Themes and Plot. Too many Shonen don't budge from the Shonen Line when it comes to the above, in particular titles from Jump! Some other magazines are a bit better about it (like Shonen Sunday)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
...............
*facepalm*
Then it is best to not get involved in such discussions at all.....

Why do members here insist on debating about things on which they have limited knowledge to begin with!? All that does is piss off the folks who actually know the material!
If you really want to share your opinion, you should express it in this way:

"90% of Shoujo Manga that I've read is sexist".
See? Sounds much better now that you've included your personal experience.
It is my perception that Shojo contains a lot of latently sexist elements. Shrug, perhaps it's just my reading too many of the most popular shojo titles on mangafox...
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Old 2011-09-05, 14:29   Link #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town View Post
Now I've read far fewer shojo series than Chiibi. (And almost half of them are from Arina Tanemura).
But plenty of shojo series have unique settings.
Thank you. Btw Arina Tanemura f**king owns my shoujo world. She's my hero and I even stalk her on Twitter haha
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Old 2011-10-08, 00:18   Link #157
Kaoru Chujo
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Personally, I enjoy most shoujo manga and find most shounen manga unreadable. They seem emotionally shallow to me. Shoujo manga are almost universally explorations of people's feelings and relationships, and tend to make emotions complex and subtle. Shounen manga are about conflict and confidence, and any feelings they may involve seem pretty one-note to me.

Just giving them various settings doesn't make them any different. Usually, I find the complex plots and situations of the most respected shounen works merely intellectual exercises. If a work of art doesn't have deep emotion, it is dead, for me.

Now, it is true that shoujo manga are often about romance, as shounen manga are about physical conflict. Both are making their appeal to deep drives within us humans, and succeeding mainly by scratching the right itch. They are popular entertainment, not high culture.

And I am not going to claim that the basic themes are not sexist, in either shoujo or shounen manga. Shoujo tries to get past that by having strong women or gender-role shifting, shounen by having female shounen heroes. But women and men do differ, physically and psychologically, so it's reasonable for the two genres to differ, too. Not that men and women can't read and enjoy manga created for the other gender.

I would like to mention the anthropological theory that human intelligence developed with the complexities of our social relations. The very thing that shoujo manga address.
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Old 2011-10-20, 18:28   Link #158
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Sex sells. What worked on men worked on women too. Both sexes are just as shallow.
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Old 2011-10-21, 19:13   Link #159
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Originally Posted by Fuyuno View Post
Sex sells. What worked on men worked on women too. Both sexes are just as shallow.
Uh....what does this have to do with shoujo and feminism?
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Old 2012-02-06, 06:03   Link #160
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Originally Posted by Cytrus View Post
And a dumb guy surrounded by super-smart and super-powerful girls never happens in fiction aimed at guys, right?
Wrong actually. Stories about dumb guy surrounded by perfect girls happens in male-oriented stories, which means that males can emphasize with these ideal girlfriends.

Last month, I read a manga called Upotte!! in which we saw a male teacher being surrounded by a large pack of super-perfect girls.

As a shounen romance fan, I'm telling that male-oriented stories are more sexist than the female ones, and the only genre that can reach a concrete label is harem : Any title featuring dumb guy surrounded by strong females are male-oriented stories, while any title featuring a female surrounded by handsome-looking perfect males with more diverse personnalities than a usual shoujo are female-oriented stories.

There's also the fact that shounen/seinen stories are more diverse in everything (stories, characters, artsyles, settings...) than the shoujo/josei ones for some reasons.

However, in many countries, shounen is extremely misclassified as nekketsu (one of its subgenres). Actually, I've read/watched a fair amount of shounen series with more girly themes (romance as a example) and generally sets in real world, like the shoujo school romance titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morisato View Post
Although it's true that most shounen consists of hot blooded main characters fighting to protect the world, friends, defeat evil, etc. The general formula is relatively repetitive as well. There are a lot of the same character archetypes.

The bolded part is key. Ninja, pirate, footballer are distinct. Average high school girl and super rich bishounen is not.

Do you know what sets one shounen from the other? It's the world that they reside in (the mythos). Let's take Bleach, Naruto, One Piece as examples. Yes, they all have the hot blooded main character and some special organization. But the backstory and history of the worlds are so different. Shinigamis, Zanpakutou and Soul Society, Ninjas, various jutsus and references to Shinto/Buddhism/Taoism, Pirates and some other stuff (I don't read One Piece). The expansive worlds that the authors create with the various powers/abilities, character relationships with each other, etc. take a lot of imagination to create and keep consistent.

Air Gear with their world of suped up roller skates, D.Gray-Man with the Church and Noah thing, Fairy Tail with the mages and guilds, Beelzebub and the demons, Shaman King with the shamans, etc. You know what I mean.
I've seen many shounen when the world build-up isn't so important, like Rurouni Kenshin and a large amount of shounen romance (minus the more-action oriented like Negima! or Qwaser).

Quote:
But shoujo? 90% of it has the same or similar art, high school setting, generic character designs, etc. Backstory or mythos? Maybe the school is for super rich elite kids (that's unique...). The setting is forgettable and has nothing to build upon. You're don't really have a reason to care about the "world". One could say that shoujo is more "character driven" which is why the setting is so generic and forgettable (basically, there's no plot, it's all drama between characters). But then again, most of the drama is pretty repetitive.
There's lot of shoujo that really focuses on the plot. About the world build-up ? Many shoujo that are focused on action (especially the magical girl) has more world build-up : you can look at PreCure and 07-Ghost.
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