(L) Lupin the Third: Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna (2011)

[Archon_Wing]

LOL this episode has Okada written over it. It even had the sparkly things. At first I was wondering if they were stealing from Shoujo Sect, but really the evil crossdresser lololol. And Yuki Kaji lol

[GenjiChan]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

LOL this episode has Okada written over it. It even had the sparkly things. At first I was wondering if they were stealing from Shoujo Sect, but really the evil crossdresser lololol. And Yuki Kaji lol

Wow, it was Shoujo Sect then it's OtoBokuKoi....

[Zaresh]

I can't see why people didn't notice it was Kaji Yuki. I mean, maybe it's because I'm currently watching like 3 shows casting him, but I can tell it's him by his sighs. His voice it's like a flute, he can do a believable female... or something. But still it sounds like him (which is something good, because he's not bad; just stick to one kind of role). He surprised me last week: he sounded at some point nearly Fukujama Jun pitch voiced, which is, to say, a deep tone far from Kaji usual tone.

[Ermes Marana]

Poor Lupin. He's in the "friend zone" now.

Sipping his wine and patiently listening while Fujiko tells him about sex with Zenigata. No problems sharing the prize between them either.

As I said earlier, this show feels like Okada populating one of her stories with Lupin characters, rather than writing a story about Lupin characters. No real interest in the Lupin world comes across. That doesn't make it bad: this episode was pretty good, Fujiko was great as the teacher, the twist worked well, the scheme Fujiko used to get the code was clever. Much better than the last 2 episodes which were uninspired and boring.

However, I can't deny being disappointed just because of the potential I saw for a show that cared a bit more about the franchise.

[Master_Yoma]

Oscar is one creepy dude

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Poor Lupin. He's in the "friend zone" now.

The show's second title states it clearly that the focus belongs to Fujiko, as it's her story and how she got pretty intertwined with Lupin, both as a rival and an equal in terms of skills and wit.

If comic book superheroes have been given many liberal interpretations of their characters, settings and stories over the years, why it can't be done with iconic anime and manga characters?

Thanks to this show (and of late I'm into retrospect mode), I'm interested in picking up a copy of Castle of Cagliostro later.

[Toto y Moi]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Poor Lupin. He's in the "friend zone" now.

Sipping his wine and patiently listening while Fujiko tells him about sex with Zenigata. No problems sharing the prize between them either.

As I said earlier, this show feels like Okada populating one of her stories with Lupin characters, rather than writing a story about Lupin characters. No real interest in the Lupin world comes across. That doesn't make it bad: this episode was pretty good, Fujiko was great as the teacher, the twist worked well, the scheme Fujiko used to get the code was clever. Much better than the last 2 episodes which were uninspired and boring.

However, I can't deny being disappointed just because of the potential I saw for a show that cared a bit more about the franchise.

I don't think so. The fact that Lupin doesn't care about Fujiko's sexual activity with Zenigata says leagues more about his character than I would have expected. There's no shame in Fujiko's behavior (and there shouldn't be). The only person who tries to make Fujiko feel bad for her promiscuous nature is the overly moralistic (thus blind to his own immorality, as these types tend to be) Oscar, whom is clearly being portrayed as the villain. If any viewers find themselves having disliked her for what she does, then they are the same.

I believe that some need to reassess how they view Fujiko in this show. Anime series historically write women with subservient and submissive natures while coupling them with character designs intended to blatantly exude sexual appeal to men, basically portraying them solely as objects with a sort of infantile innocence contrasting with the raw sexuality of their appearances. Usually, this is to pander to insecure male fans for the sake of creating a character whom seems as though these same fans would have a potential shot in attaining (since all objects are attained). A silent bride; a "pure maiden." But Fujiko has no qualms about taking what she wants, using her charisma, charm, and body to do so. She seizes power through her sexuality, intentionally attacking the emptiness of lonely men whom are gullible enough to believe that a woman can fill that void (pun intended).

Seeing her having sex with Zenigata was not only surprising, but empowering. She escaped the police and prison solely because she is one that is desired--and she knows it. Fujiko faked the entire time. Instead of being an object to be dominated, she controlled the entire situation. Contrast this to just about every other animated series airing this season and you'll notice how different Fujiko is from other female protagonists.

As far as the franchise goes, I think that this series portrays its characters in an extremely faithful light. Lupin plays the suitor attempting to woo Fujiko over, but his actions have no bearing on her own. Fujiko does what she wants and has no obligations to anyone.

Moreover, I'm interested in her affect on all four male leads. Despite ration and observation clearly telling these men to steel their hearts, they cannot. And Fujiko takes full advantage of this. She is ruthless, cunning, and calculating. No other anime series writes its women like this. They should.

[Arabesque]

I'm more or less on the same page as you with regards to how the show treated Fujiko's sexuality, Toto (though my reasons for disliking Fujiko has more to do with the same reason I find myself unable to like anyone in the show and that is that they are a group of people willing to ruin someone else in order to get what they want without a single hint of remorse, made no easier by the fact the show keeps on trying to delve into pretty dark depths ...) and I do think that the show presenting that aspect without shame is a defining strength for it and a positive for Fujiko Mine's character, especially when you consider that how her classic interpretation was closer to a male fantasy of a strong women than an actual one. So I don't really have an issue with the show on that front.

That said

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

As far as the franchise goes, I think that this series portrays its characters in an extremely faithful light.

Well, not entirely. Zenigata had been changed to be a corrupt cop who is willing to let a criminal go with the right price (as well as using a women under his mercy, even if she was faking it to get out of that bind, that doesn't look good at all in his record ) and is willing to kill a man the second he sees him just because of personal vendetta. I don't like it when the show takes a character and drastically changes them just in order to present another one in a better light/make them use the situation to their advantage. Yes I know this isn't the same Lupin of old, and I said that before that I don't mind these different interpretations, but for me, I just am unable to like it or accept it fully.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Terrific episode. This is one case where so much happened that I thought it was over when it was only halfway through -- and that was a good thing. Strong stuff.

For sure, this is now one of Sawashiro Miyuki's signature roles. One of the ways I judge OPs is whether or not I always watch them or just skip to the beginning of the show. This is one of the OPs I don't skip, even though the "music" is mainly in Miyukichi's spoken words.

This show is one of my favorites of the season, precisely because of what its female director, writer, and star are doing with it. I've never seen anything quite like this. I understand the various criticisms, but none of those things really bother me.

Director Yamamoto Sayo is 35 years old. She directed Michiko to Hatchin, and has done storyboards and episode direction for shows like Texhnolyze, Samurai Champloo, Eureka Seven, Death Note, and Panty & Stocking: (click images to enlarge)

[Toto y Moi]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

my reasons for disliking Fujiko has more to do with the same reason I find myself unable to like anyone in the show and that is that they are a group of people willing to ruin someone else in order to get what they want without a single hint of remorse, made no easier by the fact the show keeps on trying to delve into pretty dark depths ...

This is actually one of the reasons why I like the show. The characters aren't friends. They're thieves and they're uncompromising in getting what they want. They'll betray each other and only offer assistance when either necessary or in order to receive some boon. Second series Lupin is too vanilla. This series? From the very opening, you take notice of how different this is. The style, the setting, the art, the jazz, the characters' unique dispositions, the dialogue...this is cool.

Masaaki Ozumi had the right idea. I love Miyazaki, but he really made Lupin III into a program for children. Though I had heard of the green jacket series before, Lupin fans typically dismiss it as a worthless product. I no idea that it would be so sophisticated.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Well, not entirely. Zenigata had been changed to be a corrupt cop who is willing to let a criminal go with the right price (as well as using a women under his mercy, even if she was faking it to get out of that bind, that doesn't look good at all in his record ) and is willing to kill a man the second he sees him just because of personal vendetta. I don't like it when the show takes a character and drastically changes them just in order to present another one in a better light/make them use the situation to their advantage. Yes I know this isn't the same Lupin of old, and I said that before that I don't mind these different interpretations, but for me, I just am unable to like it or accept it fully.

I don't think of Zenigata as corrupt; he had no intention of letting Fujiko escape. And Zenigata didn't "use" Fujiko--she seduced him. They were using each other. She got her freedom and he gained a pawn.

If this series follows Monkey Punch's intent, then I'd really like to take a look at the first manga series.

[Ermes Marana]

Toto: I mostly agree with you about Fujiko's portrayal. In fact, that is what I expected from the show in the first place.

Let me just say once again, that this episode was well written, and I definitely appreciated that. Fujiko was portrayed very well. It was fun to see her bully Oscar after taking all those insults. The style was great. Those are not what I am criticizing.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

The fact that Lupin doesn't care about Fujiko's sexual activity with Zenigata says leagues more about his character than I would have expected.

Ep 5: Lupin is upset and demands to know what happened with Jigen and Fujiko, Jigen tries to say it was nothing
Ep 6: Lupin sips his wine and doesn't react at all about what happened with Zenigata and Fujiko, Lupin doesn't appear to make a move on Fujiko, and there is no competition between the two for the prize

Ep 4: Lupin treats Zenigata like "good old Pops" while Zenigata tries to kill him

What I'm getting at is the inconsistent, false reactions between these characters.

If you are going to make Zenigata a cold, prisoner exploiting killer, then don't go halfway. Have Lupin see him for what he is, a deadly enemy and rival, not as Pops who he can't get mad at and doesn't even react to.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

Seeing her having sex with Zenigata was not only surprising, but empowering. She escaped the police and prison solely because she is one that is desired--and she knows it.

If you want surprising pairings, fanfiction has you covered.

As for Fujiko "escaping", you can't really say that yet. Zenigata was using her against Lupin (who he cares more about killing), so did she really need to "escape"? Maybe having sex with a prisoner under his control (corruption regardless of who initiated), making her think it was the only way to freedom, was just an added bonus for Zenigata. He certainly treated her coldly afterward. That's the way the Z-man rolls.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

As for Fujiko "escaping", you can't really say that yet. Zenigata was using her against Lupin (who he cares more about killing), so did she really need to "escape"? Maybe having sex with a prisoner under his control (corruption regardless of who initiated), making her think it was the only way to freedom, was just an added bonus for Zenigata. He certainly treated her coldly afterward. That's the way the Z-man rolls.

Yeah but she used a recording of their sexy time to trick Oscar, so, regardless of Zenegata's intentions, Fujiko ended up coming on top.

Considering that, I agree with Toto that it was an empowering moment for her. She knew exactly what she was doing and she got what she wanted.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

This is actually one of the reasons why I like the show. The characters aren't friends. They're thieves and they're uncompromising in getting what they want. They'll betray each other and only offer assistance when either necessary or in order to receive some boon. Second series Lupin is too vanilla. This series? From the very opening, you take notice of how different this is. The style, the setting, the art, the jazz, the characters' unique dispositions, the dialogue...this is cool.

I disagree with the second Lupin series being vanilla, but fair enough on the rest. I had already said that I don't have a problem with them going for a different route with this series (see my post history in the thread) and I certainly like how Fujiko is portrayed as a powerful women compared to the weaker version we had of her in some of the old shows. The sexual aspect of this show remains to be well presented (well, when the writer isn't trying to be too erotic that is like in some scenes in episode 6 for the sake of it) and it still feels natural and not tacky or shameful at all. That said, I still find my self unable to attach myself to the show, mainly due to the reason of how everyone in it being so self centered. I know, this was the same even in the older Lupin, but there was still a code-of-honor-between-thieves in those shows. It's why Lupin is the Gentleman Thieve afterall ...

But this is a different show, and a different setting for these characters with a different goal and purpose. I get I need to shake off my bias, but even then, I can't help how I feel.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

Masaaki Ozumi had the right idea. I love Miyazaki, but he really made Lupin III into a program for children. Though I had heard of the green jacket series before, Lupin fans typically dismiss it as a worthless product. I no idea that it would be so sophisticated.

I wouldn't dismiss the Green Jacket series at all, or any of the older Lupin shows in fact. I recommend that you read some of what Ben Ettinger wrote about the older series, since it made me appreciate just how much value in the diversity between each show (and the reason why I'm trying to accept this one despite not liking the ''Adult and Dark'' image it's trying to give)

Also, I don't think Miyazaki made a mistake with his vision of Lupin. I think that because of how he made Lupin a show that children can watch, that it gave the franchise it's longevity and iconic status. Castle of Cagliostro is a movie made with a younger audience, however it is without a doubt one of the best, if not the best, animated feature that has Lupin it. Anyone can watch it and like it if not love it by the end, and the fact that it's for kids makes all the better since there is no age restriction to whoever wants to see it. It's a piece that can be appreciated no matter how old you are.

Not to knock this show for what it's doing either, it's honestly doing a fantastic job at portraying Fujiko Mine as a strong, intelligent and resourceful women who is able to turn the tables to her advantage and use her abilities to get what she wants. There is great value in that, and I have no issue with them going down that route.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

I don't think of Zenigata as corrupt; he had no intention of letting Fujiko escape. And Zenigata didn't "use" Fujiko--she seduced him. They were using each other. She got her freedom and he gained a pawn.

I agree that they were using each other, and in the end she came out the stronger one from the ordeal, but that doesn't change that Zenigata is 1) a cop who used his position to sleep with a prisoner and then let her out of captivity and 2) he done so for selfish reasons. That's makes him a dirty cop in my book.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

I can't see why people didn't notice it was Kaji Yuki. I mean, maybe it's because I'm currently watching like 3 shows casting him, but I can tell it's him by his sighs. His voice it's like a flute, he can do a believable female... or something. But still it sounds like him (which is something good, because he's not bad; just stick to one kind of role). He surprised me last week: he sounded at some point nearly Fukujama Jun pitch voiced, which is, to say, a deep tone far from Kaji usual tone.

Probably cause Oscar doesn't spend 90% of the time whining and talking about how much life sucks and how much he hates himself.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Terrific episode. This is one case where so much happened that I thought it was over when it was only halfway through -- and that was a good thing. Strong stuff.

For sure, this is now one of Sawashiro Miyuki's signature roles. One of the ways I judge OPs is whether or not I always watch them or just skip to the beginning of the show. This is one of the OPs I don't skip, even though the "music" is mainly in Miyukichi's spoken words.

This show is one of my favorites of the season, precisely because of what its female director, writer, and star are doing with it. I've never seen anything quite like this. I understand the various criticisms, but none of those things really bother me.

Director Yamamoto Sayo is 35 years old. She directed Michiko to Hatchin, and has done storyboards and episode direction for shows like Texhnolyze, Samurai Champloo, Eureka Seven, Death Note, and Panty & Stocking: (click images to enlarge)

And what of it's male art director, does he get any love? I know you're big on females making a name for themselves in the industry, but to me he has by far the biggest influence on this show and is what separates it from everything else that is airing this season.

[Toto y Moi]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I disagree with the second Lupin series being vanilla, but fair enough on the rest. I had already said that I don't have a problem with them going for a different route with this series (see my post history in the thread) and I certainly like how Fujiko is portrayed as a powerful women compared to the weaker version we had of her in some of the old shows. The sexual aspect of this show remains to be well presented (well, when the writer isn't trying to be too erotic that is like in some scenes in episode 6 for the sake of it) and it still feels natural and not tacky or shameful at all. That said, I still find my self unable to attach myself to the show, mainly due to the reason of how everyone in it being so self centered. I know, this was the same even in the older Lupin, but there was still a code-of-honor-between-thieves in those shows. It's why Lupin is the Gentleman Thieve afterall ...

But this is a different show, and a different setting for these characters with a different goal and purpose. I get I need to shake off my bias, but even then, I can't help how I feel.

Oh, let me apologize. I'm not trying to dismiss how you feel at all. Rather, I was trying to include my own perspective to offer a different view to anyone reading. Whenever I visit a message board, I really like to read each post to get a feel for what viewers are thinking/feeling about the episode. Let me preface by saying thank you for the long and detailed reply

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I wouldn't dismiss the Green Jacket series at all, or any of the older Lupin shows in fact. I recommend that you read some of what Ben Ettinger wrote about the older series, since it made me appreciate just how much value in the diversity between each show (and the reason why I'm trying to accept this one despite not liking the ''Adult and Dark'' image it's trying to give)

Sounds interesting! I'll see if I can find it. Last night, I watched some review of the first series on Youtube. The reviewer's summary of the first half of the green jacket show made it seem like it was more akin to this series, so I sort of see it as a return to form? Or at the very least, a return to Lupin's roots. While I still love most of red jacket Lupin III (I could watch episodes for hours), I think it's good that there's a sort of duality now. I hope that in the future, Lupin III media will continue to explore this side of the series while also exploring the other.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Also, I don't think Miyazaki made a mistake with his vision of Lupin. I think that because of how he made Lupin a show that children can watch, that it gave the franchise it's longevity and iconic status. Castle of Cagliostro is a movie made with a younger audience, however it is without a doubt one of the best, if not the best, animated feature that has Lupin it. Anyone can watch it and like it if not love it by the end, and the fact that it's for kids makes all the better since there is no age restriction to whoever wants to see it. It's a piece that can be appreciated no matter how old you are.

Not to knock this show for what it's doing either, it's honestly doing a fantastic job at portraying Fujiko Mine as a strong, intelligent and resourceful women who is able to turn the tables to her advantage and use her abilities to get what she wants. There is great value in that, and I have no issue with them going down that route.

I don't think that Miyazaki made a mistake either--I very much love his interpretation of Lupin III and the Castle of Cagliostro is a fantastic film. When I say that he made the show a program for children (or perhaps I should have said "child-friendly"?), I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense.

What I was getting at is that Miyazaki's Lupin III overshadowed Ozumi's take on Monkey Punch's manga. I think Ozumi's version disappeared from history much too soon. But I'm glad that TMS is willing to re-explore that ground in this version.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I agree that they were using each other, and in the end she came out the stronger one from the ordeal, but that doesn't change that Zenigata is 1) a cop who used his position to sleep with a prisoner and then let her out of captivity and 2) he done so for selfish reasons. That's makes him a dirty cop in my book.

I suppose this comes down to personal preference. I like seeing characters with flaws. Zenigata, while a man with justice on his mind, seems to have bended the rules for the sake of catching a notorious thief. An action like this seems more realistic and human to me than the Zenigata whose honor code was unflappable.

[sa547]

Okay, the ED now has a PV:
http://www.tokyohive.com/2012/05/nik...r-duty-friend/

[Arabesque]

Thanks for the link, though why do I get the impression that the entire thing was just cuts they got from that last filmed party at the directors home?

(Still a pretty cool song)

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

Oh, let me apologize. I'm not trying to dismiss how you feel at all. Rather, I was trying to include my own perspective to offer a different view to anyone reading. Whenever I visit a message board, I really like to read each post to get a feel for what viewers are thinking/feeling about the episode. Let me preface by saying thank you for the long and detailed reply

No problem, I actually like going into detailed discussions about these shows, and part of the reason why I come to AS is because there is a good chance I can get into write and read these replies (when time permits of course )

There is no need for that ^^; the bit about my personal feelings had to do with me trying to be more accepting of the image the show is giving of trying to be Too Adult, not that you were trying to dismiss me feelings that wasn't my intention at all. If anything, I should be the one apologizing for the misunderstanding

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

Sounds interesting! I'll see if I can find it. Last night, I watched some review of the first series on Youtube. The reviewer's summary of the first half of the green jacket show made it seem like it was more akin to this series, so I sort of see it as a return to form? Or at the very least, a return to Lupin's roots.

Well, it can be seen in that light, yes. I haven't read the original manga, but from what I read and heard this series is arguably the closest one in tone with Lupin's origin. I would say that Green Jacket's first half is somewhat similar in tone to the 2011 series, but even then this show is on a different level and gives off a complete different feeling. It's still worth a watch if your a Lupin fan or your interested, and I would recommend trying to hunt it down some time later.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

While I still love most of red jacket Lupin III (I could watch episodes for hours), I think it's good that there's a sort of duality now. I hope that in the future, Lupin III media will continue to explore this side of the series while also exploring the other.

I hope so as well, and in fact that would be the best case scenario I would think.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

I don't think that Miyazaki made a mistake either--I very much love his interpretation of Lupin III and the Castle of Cagliostro is a fantastic film. When I say that he made the show a program for children (or perhaps I should have said "child-friendly"?), I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense.

Then I guess this is where I apologize this time

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

What I was getting at is that Miyazaki's Lupin III overshadowed Ozumi's take on Monkey Punch's manga. I think Ozumi's version disappeared from history much too soon. But I'm glad that TMS is willing to re-explore that ground in this version.

Ah, then I would tend to agree with you on this. I do think that even Red Jacket had it's share of dark moments (though it was overshadowed by the general lighter nature of the show) but I would agree that in the case of Lupin III that it is important if not necessary to explore previously abandoned grounds, especially since this franchise had been built on on diversity and creativity.

My issue is that I think this show is at times tries to be too erotic or appear more mature when it shouldn't be, since it disturbs the balance that the series has and on a more personal level I feel that it might be doing a disservice to some of the characters, but on the latter I'm trying to push aside my bias and be more open minded about it, since I think it's a silly reason tbh.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

I suppose this comes down to personal preference. I like seeing characters with flaws. Zenigata, while a man with justice on his mind, seems to have bended the rules for the sake of catching a notorious thief. An action like this seems more realistic and human to me than the Zenigata whose honor code was unflappable.

Hmm, I never really thought of Zenigata as being someone with a strong code of honor, but rather as someone who is very naive and just extremely persistent in his quest, though he still really remained a police officer at the end of the day and tried to do the right thing. He was still flawed, but it was his own ego and lack of attention that made things go wrong for him.

With this Zenigata, I got the impression someone of was after fulfilling his role in a blood feud, on a quest for vengeance to bring down a single man, not capture him but shoot him dead, and is willing to use any dirty method to get his way. I don't know is that makes him more interesting, certainly it gives him a different character and different possibilities, and I suppose it makes him more human than the classic interpretation. Like I said, I'm trying to be more open minded about it, but I will admit I had cringed a little seeing him be shoot Lupin in that manner.

[cheshire]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Probably cause Oscar doesn't spend 90% of the time whining and talking about how much life sucks and how much he hates himself.




And what of it's male art director, does he get any love? I know you're big on females making a name for themselves in the industry, but to me he has by far the biggest influence on this show and is what separates it from everything else that is airing this season.

I don't know man, I mean I dig Koike too but if anything this show is closer to Michiko to Hatchin (which was Yamamoto's first major directorial work) as compared to Redline/Afro Samurai.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

For sure, this is now one of Sawashiro Miyuki's signature roles. One of the ways I judge OPs is whether or not I always watch them or just skip to the beginning of the show. This is one of the OPs I don't skip, even though the "music" is mainly in Miyukichi's spoken words.

While I agree that Sawashiro is doing a terrific job with Fujiko's role, the opening narration is not spoken by her. According to ANN the singer is Ichiko Hashimoto, whose most significant contribution to the anime world is Rahxephon's OST.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And what of it's male art director, does he get any love? I know you're big on females making a name for themselves in the industry, but to me he has by far the biggest influence on this show and is what separates it from everything else that is airing this season.

Gonna nitpick a bit and say that Koike is the animation director.Art director is Seiki Tamura who's doing a great job as far as I'm concerned, I love the stylish backrounds in this anime.

Honestly I feel it's the inverse,not enough credit given to Yamamoto who's the actual director of this project,not Koike. While he's done some cool chara design and supervised the animation (under what seems like a shaft level kind of scheduling mess) he hasn't storyboarded or directed an episode yet.