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Old 2011-05-03, 13:04   Link #1
Tenken's Smile
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Chauvinism, patriotism, nationalism

I really don't see why many people say "I'm proud to be, say, Italian/ Chinese/French" blah... To me it's just vanity. You can't control where you're born or what you are. If someone bears excessive pride in his origin/nationality, it only alienates them from other people.
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Old 2011-05-03, 13:19   Link #2
Ithekro
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I would suppose so that one feels they have a sense of self identity and a connection with something larger than themselves.
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Old 2011-05-03, 13:26   Link #3
Raiga
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Even if you can't control where you're born, it's still the culture, community, and people that you grew up with and have known all your life. Why wouldn't people be attached to them?

Not that excessive nationalism doesn't exist, but I see nothing wrong with a sense of community/national identity. Otherwise, you'd be alienating yourself not just from the global scene, but also from your next door neighbors.

... also, where does chauvinism come into this?
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Old 2011-05-03, 13:32   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
... also, where does chauvinism come into this?
This.

I myself don't see anything wrong with patriotism. It is wrong when you try to force it on others because it is your home you're proud of, but others have a home of their own. Regardless of whether or not it's your choice, wouldn't you be proud of the home you live in? Regardless of whether or not it's your choice, don't you love the family that gave birth to you and raised you with their utmost care? I already have a family, so I can appreciate it when someone speaks fondly of their family. It's the same for someone else's country, and I can appreciate it if someone from another country speaks fondly of their origins. However, I would not appreciate it if someone tried to force me into their family, tried to enforce their culture onto me and forget that with which I grew up.

P.S. I'm mighty proud to be Italian
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Old 2011-05-03, 13:39   Link #5
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
I really don't see why many people say "I'm proud to be, say, Italian/ Chinese/French" blah... To me it's just vanity. You can't control where you're born or what you are. If someone bears excessive pride in his origin/nationality, it only alienates them from other people.
So being proud of your home (whether it be country, state/province, city/town/village/etc, and neighborhood/house) is vanity?

You shouldn't be unnecessarily proud of something you have no real control over (I'm not proud of the evolutionary/genetic advantage I have over lesser mammals, but I am damn happy for said advantage), but being proud or even excited over something you can change (who doesn't like remolding or helping to remodel their "home"? ) is very different. Fact of the matter is, we can change our homes (whether by moving, or enacting social change, etc), and any changes we create are worthy of pride (or shame).

That being said, excessive pride in anything will alienate you from others.

(p.s. don't confuse pride with arrogance.)

Last edited by james0246; 2011-05-03 at 14:53.
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Old 2011-05-03, 13:57   Link #6
Blaat
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... also, where does chauvinism come into this?
Chauvinism in original French means jingoism, not male chauvinism like it's associated with in English.
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Old 2011-05-03, 14:02   Link #7
Ithekro
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Oh, jingosim...that makes more sense in context.

It is easier to be proud on a national or regional scale than on a planetary scale....also there is no one else (currently) that wouldn't be classed as a Terran, Earther, or whatever term you want to use for a human from Earth.
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Old 2011-05-03, 15:02   Link #8
ChainLegacy
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I love and enjoy my ethnic (Irish) and national (American) identities... but yes, I agree that the term 'pride' is silly. I don't see why someone would be proud of something they didn't accomplish themselves. But having solidarity, interest, and passion for your roots/family history is just fine by me and helps bring people together imo.
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Old 2011-05-03, 16:46   Link #9
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in response to Bin Laden's death, an online friend of mine said "Americans are childish, petty" and she's "sooooooo proud I'm XYZ and not a ton of idiotic Americans" knowing I'm an American. how would you react?
I'd probably list a string of equally "childish petty" incidents in her country's history that she probably doesn't know about because she didn't pay attention in her history class. Baka....
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Old 2011-05-03, 17:03   Link #10
DonQuigleone
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God-damned British! Occupies our Island for hundreds of years, and their "famine queen" commits de facto genocide by doing nothing to stop a famine that killed 1 million.

Then they split our country in 2 by not granting independence to the northern counties.

And they wipe out our native language.

Meanwhile our culture produces great music, poetry and literature. So great that it fills half the national curriculim! No greater country then Ireland. We have Joyce, Shaw, Wilde, Heaney, Kavanagh, and more!

And the British? Evil Bastards, all of em.

Or so the rhetoric goes...
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Old 2011-05-03, 17:06   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
I really don't see why many people say "I'm proud to be, say, Italian/ Chinese/French" blah... To me it's just vanity. You can't control where you're born or what you are. If someone bears excessive pride in his origin/nationality, it only alienates them from other people.
Be lucky that the year isn't 1914.

Ask yourself. Why do borders exist? They exist everywhere. National borders. Local borders. Heck, even your own house has borders - either unmarked or marked by something (fences, shrubbery, etc.). The Internet itself is no exception to the natural tendency of establishing borders.

People do take pride in the community aspect of being... "whatever".
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Old 2011-05-03, 17:37   Link #12
solomon
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You can be proud of your country without being jingoistic. They don't have to be one in the same. But this is rather subjective you know.

Patriotism does not always equal chauvanism and jingoism. You don't need to go around brandishing the flag or give absolute deference to your military and government to be a patriot.
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Old 2011-05-03, 17:59   Link #13
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Your identity is partially defined by where you live, so it's only natural to appreciate it. One way to develop it is to associate with a group.

Now, when nationalism is taken to the extreme and there arises a desire to subjugate others or to cause hostility, that can be a problem and really does happen. But this can happen with any group.
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Old 2011-05-03, 18:00   Link #14
MinuSeveN
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Nationality is and... identity. You're born somewhere, raised somewhere, taught somewhere. And somewhere happens to have a society, a culture and a history attached to it. So you live somewhere, a land with it's own identity and somehow, you belong to/in it. You're "of" it.
It's associating yourself with a land, a origin and a group of individuals united by a national identity. When proud of something your country's scientist or football players did because (supposedly) they did it for your country and you all share the same trait being "X"ese.

This doesn't always apply, everything has exceptions.

It was more important a century back, at least in Europe, when losing a war meant the country/kingdom lost and the people of the country would be subjugated by the conquerors. (WWII, France, La Résistance Française) Nowadays, it's common for people to give their nationality importance, specially if they had to recently fight for it.

My case: I'm Portuguese and guess what, our country is probably has useless and worthless as you can get, we're Europe's idiots... You get the picture. So I can't say I'm proud of my country. However, I fell some pride, deep inside of me, of what my ancestors did centuries past because (probably) I recognize this present was only possible because of them and I'm sure that at the time they did it for their country.

It's kinda of irrational, isn't it? Humans are like that...

But being excessive in one's pride can only end badly, worst case, xenophobia.
After all: Your freedom ends where the other's begins.
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Old 2011-05-03, 18:07   Link #15
Vexx
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I think its amusing and entertaining to study and enjoy the culture my dna pool (or the pools of others) spawned from. And if there are festivals and holidays involved, so much the better. Its fun to live a city with a panoply of various cultural festivals.

And that's about as serious as I think it should get My DNA pool is the result of a "rich history" of various people stealing cattle, land, and women from each other and arguing over who had the shiniest sword all across western and northern Europe. Every so often some grander thug would crown themselves a king in the mudfight. So its nice to pick out the bits that are fun and go with those.
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Old 2011-05-03, 22:32   Link #16
SaintessHeart
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With regards to nationalism, I find it rather lacking in where I live - the general opinion seems like "let's run if Malaysia invades us". For the past 40 years, there has always been this sentiment that the state next door is our enemy, but given our size, we should just give up.

Besides, we are already fighting amongst ourselves as of late. I am more inclined to think that in an event of war, our standing army will only be 30% of what can be mobilised.

The rest will just hide in their homes or run elsewhere.
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Old 2011-05-04, 01:55   Link #17
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
With regards to nationalism, I find it rather lacking in where I live - the general opinion seems like "let's run if Malaysia invades us". For the past 40 years, there has always been this sentiment that the state next door is our enemy, but given our size, we should just give up.

Besides, we are already fighting amongst ourselves as of late. I am more inclined to think that in an event of war, our standing army will only be 30% of what can be mobilised.

The rest will just hide in their homes or run elsewhere.
Heh, why would Malaysia annex Singapore, when it was the malaysian end that rejected Singapore from being part of Malaysia in the first place?
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Old 2011-05-04, 10:27   Link #18
SaintessHeart
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Heh, why would Malaysia annex Singapore, when it was the malaysian end that rejected Singapore from being part of Malaysia in the first place?
Actually we look quite delicious now considering that Malaysia is going into sovereign debt, while Singapore has tons of cash surplus. Back then when we were ejected. we are nothing but a small fishing village.

And their military is bigger than ours, have better rifles, and commandos who have seen real combat experience.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-05-04, 10:48   Link #19
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Actually we look quite delicious now considering that Malaysia is going into sovereign debt, while Singapore has tons of cash surplus. Back then when we were ejected. we are nothing but a small fishing village.

And their military is bigger than ours, have better rifles, and commandos who have seen real combat experience.
lol the whole of Southeast Asia ought to be part of China, along with Korea and the border with Russia should be restored to what it was in 1700. Japan, Indonesia, and the Philippines can have the honor of being vassal states paying annual tribute.

How's that for nationalism?
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Old 2011-05-04, 11:13   Link #20
SaintessHeart
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lol the whole of Southeast Asia ought to be part of China, along with Korea and the border with Russia should be restored to what it was in 1700. Japan, Indonesia, and the Philippines can have the honor of being vassal states paying annual tribute.

How's that for nationalism?
Given how China treated the Uighur minorities last year, I don't think that Malaysians and Indonesians are going to take that lightly.

I don't think I would have a bone to pick if they cleaned up their corrupted political system. Otherwise, I'd join the anti-China side of SEA.
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