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Old 2011-05-06, 02:25   Link #21
kujoe
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Originally Posted by raile View Post
I've seen the OVA.

But. As a self-respecting woman, I sure as hell would not be friendly with a man who almost or did violate me. I would not care how he remembered it.
I've seen the OVA episodes and the movie. I think I prefer the latter, if only because of the slightly longer ending.

But going back to your point...

Spoiler for Myung:
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Old 2011-05-06, 03:53   Link #22
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More power to you, then.
I think you misunderstood my meaning.
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Old 2011-05-06, 07:13   Link #23
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
I've seen the OVA episodes and the movie. I think I prefer the latter, if only because of the slightly longer ending.

But going back to your point...

Spoiler for Myung:
Spoiler for Myung:
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Old 2011-05-06, 10:16   Link #24
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Spoiler for Myung:
But that doesn't really fit with the scene in question...

Spoiler for Spoiler tags around a sixteen-year-old series? COME ON!!:
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Old 2011-05-06, 10:29   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
But that doesn't really fit with the scene in question...

Spoiler for Spoiler tags around a sixteen-year-old series? COME ON!!:
Spoiler for I know its kinda redundant come on people should know this already:
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Old 2011-05-06, 10:33   Link #26
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Spoiler for I know its kinda redundant come on people should know this already:
Spoiler for I know...it's totally dumb, right? Hell, we're not even spoilering the second Frontier movie anymore!:
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Old 2011-05-06, 10:46   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Spoiler for I know...it's totally dumb, right? Hell, we're not even spoilering the second Frontier movie anymore!:
Spoiler for Seriously...They don't even use spoiler tags for the other 10+ years old anime anymore so why use it for this one?:
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Old 2011-05-06, 10:51   Link #28
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Spoiler for Seriously...They don't even use spoiler tags for the other 10+ years old anime anymore so why use it for this one?:
I'm not sure. The scene in question is never shown in full...

Spoiler for but...:
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Old 2011-05-06, 11:18   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I'm not sure. The scene in question is never shown in full...

Spoiler for but...:
Spoiler for heh:
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Old 2011-05-06, 11:21   Link #30
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Spoiler for heh:
I'll have to check it again, since it's been a while...but perhaps there's a disconnect between what Guld remembers and what actually happened, and that's reflected in the flashbacks? I'm not sure about that, just tossing it in as a possibility.
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Old 2011-05-06, 11:41   Link #31
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You funny guys realize that the whole spoiler complaint from me happened when people were discussing this series all over the music videos thread, right? Right after someone said they JUST watched it? And despite that thread having a specific request not to post spoilers? Call me a prude, but just as I don't want to be spoiled about things I might yet see/read, I'd not like other people to feel the same way. Sorry if that offends anyone.

I mean, come on. Give me a break, will ya?

Now we're on the series own thread, after the helpful mods created it (we did not have a Plus thread, before. I checked).
No need for spoiler tags about it here, I'd think.
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Old 2011-05-06, 12:29   Link #32
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I'll have to check it again, since it's been a while...but perhaps there's a disconnect between what Guld remembers and what actually happened, and that's reflected in the flashbacks? I'm not sure about that, just tossing it in as a possibility.
Maybe I mean that was what Kawamori did in Sousei no Aquarion so it is a possibility that it was used here as well.
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Old 2011-05-06, 17:11   Link #33
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Spoiler for Myung:
(Ok, as requested, no spoiler tags this time...)

No, if I remember it correctly, she was torn between the two. Sharon Apple, whose emotional programming was based on Myung's emotions, confirms it when she goes crazy. According to her words, she loves Guld but loves Isamu more.

So she loves both, but she chose Isamu. Guld's transgression sort of messed up their lives and drove them apart. Fast forward to the present, Isamu is lost and being a hot-headed player, Guld is angry and mistakenly thinks it's all Isamu's fault, while Myung is confused and tries to avoid all their past emotional baggage.
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Old 2011-05-07, 02:08   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
As for Zentradis, they are naturally aggressive. Guld had to take pills constantly in order to suppress his rage.
- Tak
Are you sure it's really correct to say that Zentraedi are "naturally aggressive"? Most of the ones living aboard the Frontier seemed to have no problem keeping their tempers in check. Hell, Nene is a shrinking violet (which makes me wonder why the heck she's part of a military units, but that's another issue).
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Old 2011-05-07, 07:10   Link #35
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Are you sure it's really correct to say that Zentraedi are "naturally aggressive"? Most of the ones living aboard the Frontier seemed to have no problem keeping their tempers in check. Hell, Nene is a shrinking violet (which makes me wonder why the heck she's part of a military units, but that's another issue).

Well that's what they say in both the OVA and the movie, plus the latter half of SDF Macross kinda proved this.

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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
(Ok, as requested, no spoiler tags this time...)

No, if I remember it correctly, she was torn between the two. Sharon Apple, whose emotional programming was based on Myung's emotions, confirms it when she goes crazy. According to her words, she loves Guld but loves Isamu more.

So she loves both, but she chose Isamu. Guld's transgression sort of messed up their lives and drove them apart. Fast forward to the present, Isamu is lost and being a hot-headed player, Guld is angry and mistakenly thinks it's all Isamu's fault, while Myung is confused and tries to avoid all their past emotional baggage.
Well then I'm out of excuses for her.
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Old 2011-05-07, 08:15   Link #36
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Oh sorry, because PLUS ya know... is a 10+ year old film. I'd think everyone here seen it already.

- Tak
Agreed.

But until a week ago, I hadn't seen it either. And plus, I'm amazed there was no thread for it. I mean, if you had stuff to say about it, where would you post it until this week?

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
He also dislikes Brera (I wouldn't go far as to say he hates him) for just being an antagonistic douche to him and the rest SMS, but outside of that its really nothing personal and not to the extent of Isamu's hatred for Guld.
Well, of course it is nothing personal. And I never said hatred in a context of them having a reason, but Alto's emotions towards Brera are described as hatred later on but distaste at first. Don't ask me why it's said that way. But Alto does admit to Michael (or Luca) that he hates Brera. This being after Brera has been with them for a while.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Because it was Guld's fault that Myung and Isamu could no longer see each other, so both Isamu and Myung hated him to an extent as they kinda viewed him as the cause of their problems (and he kinda was).
Agreed. But both kept quiet about it. Which brings up the question if they wanted to still remain friends despite what happened. We do see that Isamu was aware in the very first OVA of what happened "all those years ago" but Guld is not. It's obvious to me that Myung is also aware. But Myung doesn't slap Guld away or fight, so I wouldn't go as far to say he raped her because she doesn't show those signs. But if they wanted to hate Guld as "the cause of their problems," perhaps one of them should have illustrated that GULD was the one at fault.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
It certainly help matters that Guld was the one who ended up acting as though it was Isamu who raped Myung, and tried to keep apart. It didn't help matters that Guld was had a high and mighty attitude while getting the way of their relationship.
Can I say one thing here: I think that Guld sincerely does not remember. When he nearly killed Isamu, he was very upset when he recalled what REALLY happened. It's obvious to me that he probably blotted out the truth to protect himself from the reality that he lost his two best friends WAY back then.

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Originally Posted by Lancel View Post
Backstory-wise there are differences, but in characterization they have similarities, and certainly they all pretty quickly introduce themselves as The Rival. Also Guld and Brera both have memory issues, though Brera's doesn't necessarily involve Alto, even though his lack of memory may have colored his actions against Alto. Ranka is the only thing he actually feels he knows throughout most of the series, so he's understandably overprotective.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
It's been a while since I looked at it, and I don't have it handy, but as I recall, Guld goes into a kind of trance upon seeing Isamu and Myung together, knocks Isamu aside, and attacks Myung, but he's confused...is it Myung? Is it not Myung? While chocking her, he freaks out and runs away, forgetting that it ever happened.

Added canonicity value: The novel was written by Keiko Nobumoto, who also wrote the script for Macross Plus.
Thank you, Yot-chan.

I guess that explains a little bit more about why Guld said "you two kept it from me out of sympathy." I never understood how he would just have a memory lapse and blame Isamu for it. He was probably traumatized by realizing he had harmed his friend/love.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Wow that actually seems kind of different from how it happened in the OVA and movie. In the OVAs and movies Myung's clothes were in a disarray and Guld is attacking her, and then Isamu walks in on it, and knocks Guld aside, and then Guld comes to his sense and knocks Isamu aside thinking that Isamu hurt Myung. The novel seems kind of...out of order.
No, actually, Guld walks in. Isamu and Myung are on the couch, talking. She gets up, approaches him, says something to him, then they hug. And then they look towards the camera (Guld) with shock and fear. Isamu pushes Myung away (maybe seeing that Guld has gone insane?) and is punched by Guld. Myung is telling them to stop. Guld moves over, grabs Myung, tears her shirt and then notices it's HIM in the mirror, harming his friend/love. He freaks out just like in the cockpit, screaming at himself. Then we have the explosion above and Guld thinking he killed Isamu for false reasons.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I'm not sure. The scene in question is never shown in full...

But I'm pretty sure Guld walked in on Isamu and Myung together...at least, that's what I remember from Episode 4. Maybe my own memory is playing tricks on me...?
You are correct.

I've watched it on my computer via the R2 DVD rips AND the English dub. GULD walks in on Isamu and Myung together.

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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
(Ok, as requested, no spoiler tags this time...)

No, if I remember it correctly, she was torn between the two. Sharon Apple, whose emotional programming was based on Myung's emotions, confirms it when she goes crazy. According to her words, she loves Guld but loves Isamu more.

So she loves both, but she chose Isamu. Guld's transgression sort of messed up their lives and drove them apart. Fast forward to the present, Isamu is lost and being a hot-headed player, Guld is angry and mistakenly thinks it's all Isamu's fault, while Myung is confused and tries to avoid all their past emotional baggage.
Yes. But it was obvious to me from OVA 1 that whilst she seemed friendly with Guld, her affections for Isamu were deeper. Even Isamu showed it when they were together. They played a role (as Guld put it) so they wouldn't lose their friendship with Guld, but otherwise, in reality, they were torn apart BY the past. And Isamu couldn't bear it anymore (I suppose) so he left 7 years ago. It is stated by Sharon that Myung chose not to "choose" Isamu right away BECAUSE of the pain she held: "you gave it all to me. The fighting, the pain, all the things you could not handle and ran away from." But it is obvious from OVA 1 that Myung has STRONG feelings for Isamu, even that Isamu has STRONG feelings for Myung.

I think Sharon was actually talking about herself in that context. When she says she loves Guld but loves Isamu more, I mean. For one, she says it as SHE loves Isamu more and not that Myung does. And since Sharon thought she was human now (had a soul), she is referring to herself. So, the only obvious answer is when Myung is upset that Sharon is trying to seduce Isamu into his "dream."

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well that's what they say in both the OVA and the movie, plus the latter half of SDF Macross kinda proved this.
I think it's easy to say that not ALL Zentradi are violent. For one thing, Ranka is not naturally very violent, and she is 1/4 Zentrant just as Guld was 1/4 Zentrant. Perhaps it has to do with the sex and the genes inherited. Guld possibly came from the more aggressive side. It's easy to note this because if all Zentradi were aggressive to the point of where Guld was, then Max would've been in for a lot of abusive behavior from his wife. Then, we are led to wonder, what happened to split them up in Macross 7 but emotional issues? As far as I know, no violence befell either one.
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Old 2011-05-07, 11:08   Link #37
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Well, of course it is nothing personal. And I never said hatred in a context of them having a reason, but Alto's emotions towards Brera are described as hatred later on but distaste at first. Don't ask me why it's said that way. But Alto does admit to Michael (or Luca) that he hates Brera. This being after Brera has been with them for a while.
If its not personal then one can't say that Alto truly hates Brera to the extent that Isamu hates Guld, because it isn't personal.


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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Agreed. But both kept quiet about it. Which brings up the question if they wanted to still remain friends despite what happened. We do see that Isamu was aware in the very first OVA of what happened "all those years ago" but Guld is not. It's obvious to me that Myung is also aware. But Myung doesn't slap Guld away or fight, so I wouldn't go as far to say he raped her because she doesn't show those signs. But if they wanted to hate Guld as "the cause of their problems," perhaps one of them should have illustrated that GULD was the one at fault.
Umm actually if they told him then that would totally defeat the purpose of the hiding the fact what he did in the first place. Also I don't you were paying attention but Isamu and Myung do in fact give off hints that Guld was the one that attacked Myung that day. Isamu even at one point in time accuses Myung of being Guld's girlfriend when he sees her talking to Guld, and for a second Myung looks upset at Isamu saying that. But they knew it was a mental problem so they kept it hidden from him.


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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Can I say one thing here: I think that Guld sincerely does not remember. When he nearly killed Isamu, he was very upset when he recalled what REALLY happened. It's obvious to me that he probably blotted out the truth to protect himself from the reality that he lost his two best friends WAY back then.
That doesn't change the fact that Guld was the one who hurt Myung and then started to behave like he was high and mighty after wards, which in turn upset both Isamu and Myung, even if he didn't know. And that attitude was what Isamu off. Guld was the one who blotted the truth from himself and then took up a high and mighty attitude which probably caused them to despise him, with Guld not realizing the reason for Myung's sudden distance from him, and outright acting high and mighty towards Isamu.


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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Actually, Brera has a distaste for Alto after he first meets with Ranka. It's obvious that Brera wants to know more about Ranka from the first episode they meet, but Alto stands in his way. Meanwhile, Alto stands over her like a father to his daughter and guards her - doing poorly too. Brera shows he can provide for her better and then we return to the old caveman issue where both men try to show they are stronger than the other for a woman who is actually not aware (Ranka). But why ALTO is reacting like that towards Brera over RANKA is beyond me, as it should be Sheryl he is more concerned over. Which, once again, I mention he might've loved (note the "ed" again) Ranka and didn't notice it until it was too late to salvage it, as he had fallen for Sheryl. The whole issue leads me up to believing that the relationship between them was similar to Hikaru and Minmei's relationship in this way.
But its still not like Isamu, Guld, and Myung. Simply because there is no love triangle, Ranka and Brera are siblings, the three of them are not childhood friends, and there is no drama.

Maybe Alto behaves that way towards Brera because Brera is one that continually attacks Alto and his comrades unprovoked, or maybe its the fact that Brera almost killed his comrades, and then acts like a douche on top of it? Yeah Alto has plenty of reasons to dislike Brera, that isn't really personal and isn't linked to Ranka.

You really need to take Ranka, and the finished love triangle off of your brain when viewing other Macross series, or just Frontier in general, cause otherwise you will miss out (I mean you couldn't even tell when Frontier launched though they said it in the show, nor could you tell how folding works, or even the bare bones facts in the series).


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I wouldn't go that far now. As I mentioned above: they both are fighting over Ranka. Whenever Brera does something right and saves Ranka, he rubs it in Alto's face: saying he's not fit for Ranka or to protect her. It leads one to ask: why is he talking about Ranka if they are rivals for "whose the better pilot?" Then it becomes obvious that whilst Ranka shouldn't be considered either boy's romantic interest, she is the REASON they are arguing. THEN it becomes a confusing love triangle, as Brera and Alto fight over who is better fit as a pilot and who can protect Ranka better yet Alto loves Sheryl. So, once again, it's obvious that Alto LOVED Ranka but didn't notice it until he felt his feelings for Sheryl triple.
You're wrong as they started fighting before Ranka even came into the equation. She's just an addition to their rivalry not the primary reason why dislikes Brera.

So I wouldn't say that Alto loved Ranka romantically at all, as he made no real effort to spend any time with her. You keep forgetting that Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl met at exactly the same time. And even if Sheryl wasn't there there simply is no evidence that Alto would have fallen in love with Ranka, hell the movie even makes so that Ranka gets a head start and Alto still didn't fall in love with her. Then there is the added fact that Alto can't understand Ranka without Sheryl's involvement, heck Alto probably wouldn't have seen Ranka again without Sheryl's involvement. Denial must be pretty strong with you.


[QUOTE=LoveMeKags;3602865]
Not really talking about best friends turned rivals, more of the rivals in love bit. And, since Brera and Alto are fighting over who can protect Ranka properly, they fit into the category of "rivals in love." Too bad Brera never acknowledged that Ranka loved Alto - although he does seem to show it, as he tries to push Alto to realize she's in love with him.[/quote[

No they do not, because neither Brera nor Alto are in love with Ranka, therefore they are not "rivals in love". Though if want to continue arguing it I could just as easily point out that the scene when Guld walks in on Myung and Isamu was just like the scene when Ranka walked in on Alto and Sheryl, except that instead of falling into a fit of rage, Ranka fell into a fit of depression and self-pity.




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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
No, actually, Guld felt he was STRONGER than Isamu. Brera doesn't actually win ALL the time, but actually beats him to the chase. Meanwhile, Isamu and Guld were actually fighting each OTHER. Only in Ep24 does Alto fight Brera in a competition to see who's better, and even then, he doesn't want to fight him.
Actually that is incorrect the only time Alto ever beat Brera was when Brera was told to back down or when Brera wasn't taking the dogfight seriously.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
No, actually, Guld walks in. Isamu and Myung are on the couch, talking. She gets up, approaches him, says something to him, then they hug. And then they look towards the camera (Guld) with shock and fear. Isamu pushes Myung away (maybe seeing that Guld has gone insane?) and is punched by Guld. Myung is telling them to stop. Guld moves over, grabs Myung, tears her shirt and then notices it's HIM in the mirror, harming his friend/love. He freaks out just like in the cockpit, screaming at himself. Then we have the explosion above and Guld thinking he killed Isamu for false reasons.

Ah that's right I just re-watched it.


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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I think it's easy to say that not ALL Zentradi are violent. For one thing, Ranka is not naturally very violent, and she is 1/4 Zentrant just as Guld was 1/4 Zentrant. Perhaps it has to do with the sex and the genes inherited. Guld possibly came from the more aggressive side. It's easy to note this because if all Zentradi were aggressive to the point of where Guld was, then Max would've been in for a lot of abusive behavior from his wife. Then, we are led to wonder, what happened to split them up in Macross 7 but emotional issues? As far as I know, no violence befell either one.
Well you can't argue with facts, they actually do say that all Zentrans are violent when they're enraged, and for an example of that in MF look at Klan when Michael died. Its not just that Guld was aggressive its that he was aggressive and culture shock no longer worked on him like it did on other Zentrans. The reason you could give for Millia never being shown to be aggressive could easily be that she was never shown to get that mad, but she certainly was aggressive towards Max when they first met.
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Old 2011-05-07, 17:03   Link #38
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Yes. But it was obvious to me from OVA 1 that whilst she seemed friendly with Guld, her affections for Isamu were deeper. Even Isamu showed it when they were together. They played a role (as Guld put it) so they wouldn't lose their friendship with Guld, but otherwise, in reality, they were torn apart BY the past. And Isamu couldn't bear it anymore (I suppose) so he left 7 years ago. It is stated by Sharon that Myung chose not to "choose" Isamu right away BECAUSE of the pain she held: "you gave it all to me. The fighting, the pain, all the things you could not handle and ran away from." But it is obvious from OVA 1 that Myung has STRONG feelings for Isamu, even that Isamu has STRONG feelings for Myung.

I think Sharon was actually talking about herself in that context. When she says she loves Guld but loves Isamu more, I mean. For one, she says it as SHE loves Isamu more and not that Myung does. And since Sharon thought she was human now (had a soul), she is referring to herself. So, the only obvious answer is when Myung is upset that Sharon is trying to seduce Isamu into his "dream."
The part of whether Myung has been raped or only if an attempt has been made isn't so clear, though I do believe Guld has done the crime. We're more or less the same with regard to our understanding of the story, except for the second part about Sharon Apple.

Sharon Apple isn't just speaking for herself, but she also reflects Myung's inner turmoil and emotions. Originally, Sharon Apple was meant to be a straightforward artificial idol who appears as a hologram, but Myung infuses her with emotional traits via an illegal chip that was provided by the original lead scientist of the program. When Sharon Apple goes berserk, it's as if she's also acting like Myung's crazed id—and upon hearing Sharon Apple's confession, Myung is also reminded of her own true feelings. It's not as if Myung wants the whole city destroyed, but as far as the music and her feelings are concerned, Sharon Apple is Myung.

Here is the basic plot rundown with Sharon Apple at the centre:

Spoiler:

wikipedia

Last edited by kujoe; 2011-05-07 at 17:15.
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Old 2011-05-07, 22:55   Link #39
LoveMeKags
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If its not personal then one can't say that Alto truly hates Brera to the extent that Isamu hates Guld, because it isn't personal.
Alto described his distaste for Brera as "hate."

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Umm actually if they told him then that would totally defeat the purpose of the hiding the fact what he did in the first place. Also I don't you were paying attention but Isamu and Myung do in fact give off hints that Guld was the one that attacked Myung that day. Isamu even at one point in time accuses Myung of being Guld's girlfriend when he sees her talking to Guld, and for a second Myung looks upset at Isamu saying that. But they knew it was a mental problem so they kept it hidden from him.
I think I was in more reference to the "Myung holds feelings for Isamu" bit. But yes, I had that feeling when Guld touched her shoulders and she looked frightened.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
That doesn't change the fact that Guld was the one who hurt Myung and then started to behave like he was high and mighty after wards, which in turn upset both Isamu and Myung, even if he didn't know. And that attitude was what Isamu off. Guld was the one who blotted the truth from himself and then took up a high and mighty attitude which probably caused them to despise him, with Guld not realizing the reason for Myung's sudden distance from him, and outright acting high and mighty towards Isamu.
Well that doesn't excuse them from not telling him he was the one at fault. Though I agree that unless Myung was the one to tell him, he wouldn't trust ISAMU's words.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Ah that's right I just re-watched it.
Yep.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well you can't argue with facts, they actually do say that all Zentrans are violent when they're enraged, and for an example of that in MF look at Klan when Michael died. Its not just that Guld was aggressive its that he was aggressive and culture shock no longer worked on him like it did on other Zentrans. The reason you could give for Millia never being shown to be aggressive could easily be that she was never shown to get that mad, but she certainly was aggressive towards Max when they first met.
Like I said, it could be the difference in the gender. Women are obviously more prone to be understanding and calm unlike men. Why do you think women are more level headed in stressful situations regarding work whilst men tend to fly off the handle? Ranka is much more understanding than Guld could ever be. She was also calmer. When it came to fighting against her best friend for Alto's heart, she did so fairly and accepted her defeat. Guld did not do this and flew off the handle.
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Old 2011-05-07, 23:07   Link #40
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Location: Idaho, USA
Age: 22
I think I'll be re-watching the movie & OVAs once exams are over, at least for the beautiful Sharon Apple~
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