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Old 2011-05-22, 09:03   Link #61
BChoinski
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Well, a bit different so far.

I certainly don't miss the narrator from RT.

1) Interesting how Hikaru was, from the outset, chafing at being in Roy's shadow. He certainly was a cocky punk right from the start.

2) I like how Roy had to stop himself from saying "When did you get so good!". And unless I am misremembering, in RT "Rick" only won the competitions 4 years (when he counted out the fingers), but here it's presented as four MORE years, making him even more of a hotshot.

3) Breetai (sorry, don't know proper v-name spelling) is certainly more of a hard-ass in this text. "Crush them".
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Old 2011-05-22, 16:41   Link #62
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Episode 2 Notes.

I hope I'm not early...I checked and this was set for this weekend. I'll just get my notes in early so I can bunker up properly.

1) The Valk is face-planted and pretty much top of head is top of the third floor roof...I thought a valk was suppose to be on par with the 50' aliens, so does that mean that Japanese "stories" are 15'?

2) After the failed launch they made it sound like they purchased a junker at a used car lot.

3) Roy must have been slacking...only 10 kills, given that mass of enemy sent down?

4) Roy's Gerwalk landing down the street must have been the genesis of my Gerwalk love.

5) Minmei must be a track star. Something back at the house? looks like a few miles away, easily a couple hours trip back and forth. Meanwhile, people are streaming AWAY from the city. A good hike in the middle of a crisis.

6) The one thing that has always seemed odd about the ships in this show -- every ship has a double crap-load of guns all pointing forward. Now, given this was in the 80's, even battleships at the time had a good set of guns out front, but a much better broadside (including front and back turreted). Perhaps my view is tempered by the Honor Harrington books, where even given the high tech it was still like old "wood and sail" tactics. for all those guns we never see much side firing in the series, always nose to the enemy. It made sense with the big "mouth cannon" from DYRL, but unless the ships are shaped like balls you would think that the mount points forward would be limited. I'll grant you it does make sense, to have a smaller target to shoot back at (front vs. side).

7) "What was that?", asked Hikaru. Meanwhile, the street around you is smoking...

8) Gerwalk skating dodge FTW!...but not always.

9) Gerwalk block, Roy in the house!

10) Gah, perspective bug...Hikaru's cockpit is HUGE compared to Roy's right next to him, like his fighter got the mumps!

11) Thanks sempai, good to know where your priorities are. Women > Hikaru

12) Minmei used industrial grade hair gel...the hand is in the middle of a missile fire storm and she does not come out bald or with a heat-frizzed afro.

13) Tough cockpit glass, skidding many lengths over chewed up road. Interesting to see how the Regults can rocket-up when tipped over. Those long ostrich legs would seem to be a big problem if you get knocked on your back, since those things have no arms. Good to see the animators put that detail in there, rather than having it do some sort of ninja backflip or something.

14) Hikaru...worst aim ever, or that gun was loaded with rock salt. I grant it was his first time operating the thing, but one would think the HUD would show where the hell he was shooting and he would at least try to correct. I guess he never played video games.

15) And the enemy climbs out. I never liked the regult...it seemed so horrible a design where they must have had to be curled up like a shrimp to fit in there...oh, so comfy. I like the DYRL battle suit designs MUCH better. I have not seen any of Macross: the First; which way did they go here, and did the scaling look better?

16) He flattens that car. Again, rotten perspectives, but I'll forgive it for the rule of cool. It practically fits under the arches of his boots, which is like me stepping on a hot wheels car. Given that scale he must have been 100+ feet tall.

17) I can't remember if they "erased" the blood from the dead giant in RT. Nice touch here to keep it real. I thought it was so stupid they way they colorized it in the version of "Saint Seiya" that played on cartoon network, where it was green so it would not look like blood (squirting green goo, like the slime from Nickelodeon's shows is better?). Given the attempt to not "kiddy" it up and show some of the horrible sights of war just makes this show all the better, for something of that era.

18) I know it's not rocket exhaust like a Saturn V launching, but the Macross engines should have turned that launch area to a bubbling mire, with more than just smoke drifting past Roy and Hikaru, especially since the rockets "were made on earth". Since the Macross is not mostly fuel tank, the engines have to either be something nuclear, or the reaction power system is propelling some smaller amount of reaction mass at much higher velocity.


SUMMARY:
Given the two episodes to date, I like this one better, but then I have always been more of a mecha-head. Lots of good action. The show is still doing the setup on the core characters, and I like how Misa is not the "by-the-rules" b*tch in the original like they made her in RT. Thinking back, I figured Hikaru was the main, but had no inkling of any triangle at this point, but I was pretty neutral about Minmei here...no spark of like or dislike for the character at this point. In terms of Misa at this point (in RT) I sort of disliked the character, but seeing her here in the original has her also sort of neutral.

Character design-wise, I liked Vanessa, but I've always like girls in glasses.

Last edited by BChoinski; 2011-05-23 at 07:34. Reason: I hate typos, some rewrite for clarity
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Old 2011-05-22, 21:04   Link #63
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Episode 2

Oh man. Macross Frontier pales in comparison right now, pales. Hikaru's rescue of Minmay is so much better than Alto's of Ranka. It's more realistic and he didn't hesitate or anything. Once again, Hikaru > Alto

I love how the anti-gravity engines just ripped through the ship. Talk about shoddy workmanship.

I counted three times where we would have seen Minmay's panties this episode, haha.

And I have to say how awesome the idea of planes turning into robots is. Not to mention the awesome gerwalk mode. Genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BChoinski View Post
I'm sure I'll be seeing some interesting differences, though I rewatched Robotech/Macross saga about 6 years ago, at least. I'll be hard pressed to remember details, only seeing jarring differences where memory clashes with current.
Just remember we're watching Macross, not Robotech.

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Originally Posted by BChoinski View Post
5) Minmei must be a track star. Something back at the house? looks like a few miles away, easily a couple hours trip back and forth. Meanwhile, people are streaming AWAY from the city. A good hike in the middle of a crisis.
Why'd she go back? Why'd they let her go back!? It would been so much more plausible for her and her family to be ambushed as they ran away and Minmay needed special saving or something.

Quote:
14) Hikaru...worst aim ever, or that gun was loaded with rock salt. I grant it was his first time operating the thing, but one would think the HUD would show where the hell he was shooting and he would at least try to correct. I guess he never played video games.
I don't think he put the auto lock feature on. Oh I know, maybe it broke.
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Old 2011-05-22, 21:13   Link #64
BChoinski
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Episode 2
Just remember we're watching Macross, not Robotech.
Oh, I know. It's just that I first watched it as RT, I rewatched as RT 6 years ago, so as "least mangled" of the 3 shows (barring RT inventions) It's interesting to see the differences made for US broadcast. Some (like the bi-plane dream rememberance) were cut for time, in others stuff like blood was likely erased so as to not "traumatize" the kids. And in still other cases, language and terms were likely dumbed down.

I'm watching in terms of pure Macross, and any snark is based on present viewing of a nearly 30 year show and animation, but I thought a few side comments as to how things were altered might be interesting as a means to highlight the "pure" show.
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Old 2011-05-22, 21:18   Link #65
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Episode 2
I love how the anti-gravity engines just ripped through the ship. Talk about shoddy workmanship.
That was always a strange thing. One would think that the people reworking the Macross would use good steel instead of duct tape and copper plate to hold those suckers down.

And anyways, presumably they are original equipment -- wouldn't the exiting brackets be pretty strong, and even if damaged shouldn't the engineers have done some reienforcement work given the obvious purpose? It's like tying down a balloon with twine, knowing full well the purpose of the gas bag is to lift 500# of weight.
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Old 2011-05-22, 21:51   Link #66
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Originally Posted by BChoinski View Post
And anyways, presumably they are original equipment -- wouldn't the exiting brackets be pretty strong, and even if damaged shouldn't the engineers have done some reienforcement work given the obvious purpose? It's like tying down a balloon with twine, knowing full well the purpose of the gas bag is to lift 500# of weight.
Well, after it was shot, burnt and crashed, one can only wonder how much of its original equipment were salvageable. If we use Insurance Language, the SDF in 1999 would have been considered a total loss and sent to a junk yard

Necromancy was cast upon the fallen vessel, followed by a surgery procedure that could only been Frankenstein. Human artifacts were used to replace what was missing, and to make things worse, the vessel never had a chance to be tested prior to the Zentradi attacking.

Thus in the famous words of Global, "what a piece of junk!"

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-05-22 at 22:52.
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Old 2011-05-22, 22:12   Link #67
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Old 2011-05-23, 07:12   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Well, after it was shot, burnt and crashed, one can only wonder how much of its original equipment were salvageable. If we use Insurance Language, the SDF in 1999 would have been considered a total loss and sent to a junk yard
Yea, but I don't think we had anti-grav tech in 1999, so that original equipment had to still be operational. They obviously puzzled out what those things did, and if too many of them were damaged the Macross would not have budged.

Looking back after 30 years, it really looks sloppy. If they had the ability to cut away damaged internal hull and outer armor in order to rebuild the ship, they should have been putting those generators under some serious load-bearing beams, not the apparent sheet metal. Again, since I don't have the books, how was this scene handled in Macross: the first?

Tech question...I realize it's a component of Earth technology since at least Macross 7 (armor strength reinforced by the fighter power systems); was this tech in play with SA ships or zentradi ships, or was this a new innovation from the incidents that happen in a few episodes further on?
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Old 2011-05-23, 08:48   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BChoinski View Post
14) Hikaru...worst aim ever, or that gun was loaded with rock salt. I grant it was his first time operating the thing, but one would think the HUD would show where the hell he was shooting and he would at least try to correct. I guess he never played video games.
I got the impression that Hikaru's apparent lack of aim is due more to his hesitancy to take up arms rather than from any lack of skill. After all, this is his first time flying a military aircraft, and it isn't as if he's expressed any interest whatsoever in joining the military. It is nice to see a lead character who doesn't automatically gain unbelievable proficiency right from the start. This leads to more believable character growth, IMHO, and therefore makes it easier to sympathize with the character.
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Old 2011-05-23, 09:20   Link #70
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Oh man. Macross Frontier pales in comparison right now, pales. Hikaru's rescue of Minmay is so much better than Alto's of Ranka. It's more realistic and he didn't hesitate or anything. Once again, Hikaru > Alto
I loved both shows. Am planning to get my own copy of the good old school SDF.
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Old 2011-05-23, 10:40   Link #71
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Yea, but I don't think we had anti-grav tech in 1999, so that original equipment had to still be operational. They obviously puzzled out what those things did, and if too many of them were damaged the Macross would not have budged.
Well, it did lift off for just a bit before falling flat on its face again

Besides, they had no way of knowing it would turn out like that, with engines suddenly protrude from the ship's hulls and go floating into the air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BChoinski View Post
Looking back after 30 years, it really looks sloppy. If they had the ability to cut away damaged internal hull and outer armor in order to rebuild the ship, they should have been putting those generators under some serious load-bearing beams, not the apparent sheet metal. Again, since I don't have the books, how was this scene handled in Macross: the first?
I really don't know how much of the original vessel was salvageable, since it was full of holes to begin with. With no way to completely replicate the materials found on the original, the humans had to muster with whatever they can make, which were obviously pretty shoddy compared to the original.

Even after it was deemed operational, the SDF still had numerous faults, which will gradually be revealed as the series progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BChoinski View Post
Tech question...I realize it's a component of Earth technology since at least Macross 7 (armor strength reinforced by the fighter power systems); was this tech in play with SA ships or zentradi ships, or was this a new innovation from the incidents that happen in a few episodes further on?
Believe it or not, Zentradi vessels were actually more durable and powerful than the SDF when the latter first launched. These ships had been the staple of the Zentradi warfleet for the past hundreds of thousands of years. Theoretically, any frontline Zentradi battleship can take out the SDF without much difficulty. They didn't, because Breetai wanted to study these humans.

The humans learned a great deal after Space War I, and the capturing of a Zentradi factory satellite proved invaluable to the advancement of human understanding of how Protoculture technology worked.

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Old 2011-05-23, 11:06   Link #72
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Well, it did lift off for just a bit before falling flat on its face again
Actually, taking the Macross toy on my desk, laying it down (I have it in Battle mode), it technically was a "face-plant".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Even after it was deemed operational, the SDF still had numerous faults, which will gradually be revealed as the series progress.
Your government contractors in action, lowest bidders, etc.

Please don't think I'm just picking nits...I love the original, and I know lots of stuff just got done for the "Rule of Cool" and to push the story forward. Personally, I'm not sure how much the scene really added. I suppose it's good if you want to give the impression that the Macross is a junker, but if the purpose was to give plausible reason why Hikaru, Minmei and Roy had all that time on the ground I think it could have been done differently.

I have only seen the short game video of the launch and fold out, just prior to the island getting nuked; It may have had the whole scene with the anti-grav tear away, or just pure rockets from the start.

Thinking back, I think it would have been more tense to see them rush to beat the clock to get unready engines up to speed; rather than the "Try the new stuff, find out it sucks, switch to backups". That also avoids the however many huge holes over the length of the hull as they head into vacuum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Believe it or not, Zentradi vessels were actually more durable and powerful than the SDF when the latter first launched. These ships had been the staple of the Zentradi warfleet for the past hundreds of thousands of years. Theoretically, any frontline Zentradi battleship can take out the SDF without much difficulty. They didn't, because Breetai wanted to study these humans.
Oh certainly; by all rights the second episode should have happened as fast as the Meltran ship blast in DYRL, only with a more thorough beating, if all they wanted was to just crush the ship. However, wishing to recover the "lost" technology is really the only thing keeping this ship in one piece at this point. The pin-point saturation blasting from high orbit all around the Macross without touching it could easily have been squeezed in and reduced it to a stain.

Last edited by BChoinski; 2011-05-23 at 11:43. Reason: clarification, smack typos
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Old 2011-05-23, 11:22   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Episode 2

Oh man. Macross Frontier pales in comparison right now, pales. Hikaru's rescue of Minmay is so much better than Alto's of Ranka. It's more realistic and he didn't hesitate or anything. Once again, Hikaru > Alto
Yes, because Alto was so incredibly hesitant when he decided to rescue Ranka.

Seriously dude, give it a rest. I'd kind of like to show some respect for the older Macross material since I think the newer stuff I love so much owes a lot to it. But showing respect for the older material may be kind of difficult if I have to spend too much time doing things like explaining why I think Hikaru is an irresponsible douchebag compared to Alto.
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Old 2011-05-23, 11:53   Link #74
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Episode 2

Oh man. Macross Frontier pales in comparison right now, pales. Hikaru's rescue of Minmay is so much better than Alto's of Ranka. It's more realistic and he didn't hesitate or anything. Once again, Hikaru > Alto
It is easy to forget that at the time, Alto really had little means to save Ranka. In contrast to Hikaru, Alto was neither a pilot nor had he ever been prepared to counter an invasion. If he hesitated, it was for good reason, because there was little he could do other than get in the way and make situation worse for the two.

Remember, although Alto eventually hopped into the VF-25, he was of little help and almost got himself killed if not for the timely intervention of Ozma.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-05-23 at 12:04.
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Old 2011-05-23, 12:04   Link #75
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SDFM Series in Review: Episode 2, “Countdown”

I spent a good part of this episode having a laugh. It starts off with a lot more in the way of overt slapstick, which is just fine--watching Hikaru’s Valkyrie stumble around and crash into buildings never gets old, and later on there’s more of that darker Murphy’s Law humour, as the gravity pods rip away at the worst possible time.

We’re introduced to a lot of things in this episode, and the one that I most remember is Lynn Minmay. I’m not actually a fan of Minmay, in terms of holding any affection for her as an individual character, but I don’t hate her, either. The thing about me is that I love the human-allied male Zentradi, and their character arc, so I seem to have to hold some regard for Minmay on some level. I default to giving her the benefit of the doubt in most cases, and, as I said, don’t dislike her. This episode doesn’t really show much of Minmay’s characterization. So far she’s just the generic cute girl, but that will soon change.

Roy and Hikaru’s banter is pretty fun, though the exposition about how the Valkyrie works loses me. The Valkyries are great designs, but talking about their nuts and bolts just isn’t that exciting.

The animation in this episode is pretty bad. You see wonky character art, miscoloured bits, and so on. Bad animation doesn’t get to me that much, so I only notice it when I slow down (except in “Virgin Road”, where it’s impossible not to).

However, the shot of Minmay falling and Hikaru catching her is a wonderful piece of animation, especially when you think about the effort needed to create the rotating effect frame by frame. They way they fall tangled back into the cockpit is also a very natural-seeming way to cap it off.

For some reason, watching those Regults jump along amuses me. Regults in general are funny mecha, aren’t they?

The scene where the Zentradi soldier climbs dazed from his crashed Pod is an image that sticks. The characters are just as surprised as the audience, and it’s one of the key conceits of the original SDF Macross: that these Zentradi are, in the end, simply human, and that makes them far more interesting.

The ending of the episode is a nice subtle look into Hikaru’s shocked psyche. He’s got the survival mechanism to fight when danger comes at him, but afterwards, it sinks in, and it’s far more effective when the Zentradi looks like a king-sized, armoured version of a guy you’d meet on the street. The narrator says little, Hikaru says nothing, but the idea is conveyed clear and sharp. It reminds me of Shinji Ikari’s reaction to his flashback of Sachiel’s defeat: Shinji simply turns over in bed, but that small move speaks volumes.

I…don’t have much to say about this episode, actually. It’s a place-setter in a lot of ways, and while that doesn’t preclude it from being fun, going through the episode piece-by-piece doesn’t yield much material. We’re all still waiting for the payoff.
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Old 2011-05-23, 16:03   Link #76
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It is easy to forget that at the time, Alto really had little means to save Ranka. In contrast to Hikaru, Alto was neither a pilot nor had he ever been prepared to counter an invasion. If he hesitated, it was for good reason, because there was little he could do other than get in the way and make situation worse for the two.

Remember, although Alto eventually hopped into the VF-25, he was of little help and almost got himself killed if not for the timely intervention of Ozma.

- Tak
I think they refer to when she was falling and he reached for her hand was much better animated than Alto reaching for Ranka's hand and then jumping headlong into the vortex to save her with a very small lifeline.
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Old 2011-05-23, 18:23   Link #77
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My first time posting outside my usual haunting grounds... so bear with me.
I have to thank DragoZERO for getting me hooked on Macross in the first place... thanks for having such a useful sig!
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Yes, because Alto was so incredibly hesitant when he decided to rescue Ranka.
I actually remembered wrong, sorry. He hesitated with Michael. But Hikaru's still wins since it's more believable.
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Old 2011-05-24, 00:13   Link #78
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The animation in this episode is pretty bad. You see wonky character art, miscoloured bits, and so on. Bad animation doesn’t get to me that much, so I only notice it when I slow down (except in “Virgin Road”, where it’s impossible not to).
Really...I was going to say that this episode had some of the BEST animation in the whole series. Compared to clunkers like, as you say, "Virgin Road," this episode had a wonderful look from start to finish. For me, the NEXT episode is where the cracks start to show.

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However, the shot of Minmay falling and Hikaru catching her is a wonderful piece of animation, especially when you think about the effort needed to create the rotating effect frame by frame. They way they fall tangled back into the cockpit is also a very natural-seeming way to cap it off.
One of the books I have shows two different storyboard sequences for this scene: one by Itano, concentrating on the missiles and the Valkyrie, and one by Mikimoto, concentrating on the characters. As such, I believe they animated this scene together.

The combat animation near the end of this episode is also spectacular, and I believe that's Itano as well.

Oh, and, uh...
Spoiler for Panty Flash:
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Old 2011-05-24, 06:29   Link #79
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It's subjective but in terms of animation quality I feel it matters which version to watch. If I see the ADV version with it's subdued colors and accented lines and contrast get to me and makes the whole feel more dated. However the Bandai remaster with it's more vivid colors and softer lines manages just makes the whole a more enjoyable experience for me.
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Old 2011-05-24, 07:54   Link #80
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The scene where the Zentradi soldier climbs dazed from his crashed Pod is an image that sticks. The characters are just as surprised as the audience, and it’s one of the key conceits of the original SDF Macross: that these Zentradi are, in the end, simply human, and that makes them far more interesting.
That's a good point. Roy comments as to "that's why we have the valkyries, to fight these giants".

So, they had to have hints of this in the Macross (huge doors, lockers with big space suits, mammoth urinals, whatever). Yet given 10 years of work on the ship, by thousands of people of all disciplines (steelworker to computer tech and everything between), info and rumors and didn't slip out? Talk about tight information security. We have leaky projects nowdays, and they are usually dealing with fewer people and a lot less visible subject (much less the biggest change to man's mind set -- there are aliens out there! -- having a huge, obvious presence).

We still have the area 51 watcher (fewer today than decades ago), but I can imagine the nerd-swarms if a Macross-equivalent (hell, even something "tiny" like a scout boat) crashed with a location known by everyone.

hell, I'D be trying to get a peek inside.
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