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Old 2011-08-03, 03:47   Link #41
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludrio D. Zoki View Post
I do not think American television is practical enough to make good TV shows.
They can barely handle anime.

So I doubt anybody watching those networks would expect something so different.
I am afraid I disagree, and believe that if crappy shows are going to be made, why not just let the producers learn their lesson when all their retirement funds dry up?
The industry model of japanese animation is not better. Otherwise why would more of those subpar bishoujo game ports still get churned out, instead of learning from Kanon 2006, Clannad and ef how to do it right? Let's not get started on shounen adaptations, light novels adaptations or wrecks like C.
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Old 2011-08-03, 04:22   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
The industry model of japanese animation is not better. Otherwise why would more of those subpar bishoujo game ports still get churned out, instead of learning from Kanon 2006, Clannad and ef how to do it right? Let's not get started on shounen adaptations, light novels adaptations or wrecks like C.
Eh, those "Subpar Bishoujo Game Ports" tend to sell well enough, certainly to cover their own production cost. They have such a low budget that they don't need to move many units to get in the black.

As for the likes of C, well that's just stright forward incompetence. There's always going to be series that are failures. Can't stop it.
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Old 2011-08-03, 10:00   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Eh, those "Subpar Bishoujo Game Ports" tend to sell well enough, certainly to cover their own production cost.
IIRC, they don't sell as well as Clannad or Kanon 2006 did, though. Sheba has a point there.

The anime industry changed how it does VN adaptations when the Clannad/Kanon method worked and sold perfectly fine seems highly questionable to me.

I'll take unified format over omnibus any day.
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Old 2011-08-03, 13:10   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
IIRC, they don't sell as well as Clannad or Kanon 2006 did, though. Sheba has a point there.

The anime industry changed how it does VN adaptations when the Clannad/Kanon method worked and sold perfectly fine seems highly questionable to me.

I'll take unified format over omnibus any day.
As far as I'm aware, Amagami SS is the only "Omnibus" show. Also it's not neseccary for every show to be as succesful as Clannad/Kanon. For one thing, most studios don't want to put in that much effort to VN adaptations, for them it's something they do to pay the bills. Most VN adaptations are produced quick and cheap, and they're happy so long as it sells. Also, most VNs are not as good as Key's stuff, and there's not much point in going to a great effort.

Another thing to consider is that I don't think VN sales particularly vary. Most VNs cater to a hardcore crowd who'll buy it regardless of it's quality, along with their figurines and body pillows...
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Old 2011-08-03, 16:05   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
As far as I'm aware, Amagami SS is the only "Omnibus" show.
Yosuga no Sora is also omnibus, albeit in a slightly different way than Amagami SS is.


Quote:
Also it's not neseccary for every show to be as succesful as Clannad/Kanon.
Nobody said it was "necessary". But if the Clannad/Kanon approach is what sells best, and what tends to bring with it the highest degree of viewer satisfaction, then there's no good reason to deviate from it, if the goal is to satisfy your customers as much as possible. And that should be the goal of just about any commercial industry, in my view.


Quote:
For one thing, most studios don't want to put in that much effort to VN adaptations,
"That much effort" makes a real positive difference, in my opinion. It makes for a better product. Why shouldn't Sheba, myself, and other anime fans, support that, if this is our honest opinion on the matter?

It seems very counterproductive to me for anime fans to casually excuse poor or mediocre efforts on the part of any anime production, really.


Quote:
for them it's something they do to pay the bills.
All anime talked about on this site is produced, at least in part, as a commercial product.


Quote:
Most VN adaptations are produced quick and cheap, and they're happy so long as it sells. Also, most VNs are not as good as Key's stuff, and there's not much point in going to a great effort.
Simply comparing Kanon 2002 to Kanon 2006 disproves your point here. Same VN source material, but one adaptation clearly has much more effort put behind it, and that same one sold much better and (generally speaking) receives much higher reviews and fan appreciation.

The great effort may very well be worth it.


Quote:

Another thing to consider is that I don't think VN sales particularly vary.
Sure they do. Clannad averaged about 20,000 sales per volume. Some VN adaptations have sold at less than 5,000 sales per volume. That's a significant degree of sales variety, imo.


Quote:
Most VNs cater to a hardcore crowd who'll buy it regardless of it's quality, along with their figurines and body pillows...
It's entirely possible to create a VN adaptation that appeals to wider audiences than this hardcore crowd alone. I loved Clannad, and I liked Kanon 2006. At the time that I watched them, I had not played/read a lone VN in my life.
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Old 2011-08-03, 16:16   Link #46
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Well, not every VN adaptation sells well regardless of quality even if there are hardcore fans. Umineko *cough*

So apparently they do have standards somewhere.
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Old 2011-08-03, 16:47   Link #47
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Yeah, their standards is enough to deny an animated adaptation of a well known VN to have existed.

As far as I am concerned, if the adaptation can stand on its own and not scream LOL BUY THE VN/LN it did its job. Which is what Kanon 2006, Clannad AND now, so far, steins,gate accomplishes.
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Old 2011-08-03, 16:49   Link #48
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Also, most VNs are not as good as Key's stuff, and there's not much point in going to a great effort.
Uh wut. There are plenty of really good VN's out there. I think KEY VN's in fact represent some of the wors tof the upper tier VN's. KyoAni made the Clannad and Kanon2006 VN's much much better in the anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Most VNs cater to a hardcore crowd who'll buy it regardless of it's quality, along with their figurines and body pillows...
Depends really. Quality really does sell better. It accounts for the popularity of VN's like Ever17 which has zero echi/ero/fanservice/etc.

Seriously. There are tons of good VN's out there, in an array of genres waiting to be adapted if a studio is willing ot put in a little effort that I'M SURE could sell very well.

Just look at the shitty adaption of Fate/Stay Night that is making some very good sales by DEEN. Imagine if actual effort was put into it.
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Old 2011-08-03, 18:11   Link #49
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What if it's the exact opposite?

What if I was watching AMC one night, saw Breaking Bad, and was like "Hey, this is how anime should be written!" ?
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Old 2011-08-03, 18:25   Link #50
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As a big a fan of VN anime as I am(I do like be them bad or good) even I will admit that they probably shouldn't be shown on western TV simply cause alot of them are infact poorly done.
Not so much a issue with ero stuff but simply cause ont he whole they generally just lack.

But then I think that can be said for alot of anime even for stuff I really like.

However how they fare against western cartoons I couldn't compare since I haven't watched cartoons since like forever.

Still part of me would like to see anime shown here just for the sake of it, just make it easier for me to watch

The iplayers for the channels are a great thing.
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Old 2011-08-03, 20:15   Link #51
DonQuigleone
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[QUOTE=Triple_R;3715286]
Nobody said it was "necessary". But if the Clannad/Kanon approach is what sells best, and what tends to bring with it the highest degree of viewer satisfaction, then there's no good reason to deviate from it, if the goal is to satisfy your customers as much as possible. And that should be the goal of just about any commercial industry, in my view.


Quote:
"That much effort" makes a real positive difference, in my opinion. It makes for a better product. Why shouldn't Sheba, myself, and other anime fans, support that, if this is our honest opinion on the matter?

It seems very counterproductive to me for anime fans to casually excuse poor or mediocre efforts on the part of any anime production, really.
Some source material just can't be significantly improved, and it isn't worth expending significant resources to do so. No amount of polishing would make, say, Shuffle any better. Sure the Animation might be nicer, but it doesn't change the fact that the source material is shallow. But they know that Shuffle fans will buy the DVD, so they make it.




Quote:
Simply comparing Kanon 2002 to Kanon 2006 disproves your point here. Same VN source material, but one adaptation clearly has much more effort put behind it, and that same one sold much better and (generally speaking) receives much higher reviews and fan appreciation.

The great effort may very well be worth it.
Not at all. My point is that no matter how good an adaptation is, it can't make up for bad source material. Of course, good source material can be ruined by a bad adaptation (EG Kanon 2002, Umineko etc.)

Quote:
Sure they do. Clannad averaged about 20,000 sales per volume. Some VN adaptations have sold at less than 5,000 sales per volume. That's a significant degree of sales variety, imo.
That's not what I mean. I mean on an individual title basis. For something like, again, Shuffle, the people who are going to buy it are core fans of Shuffle. So long as their adaptation is decent, they have those sales pretty much in the bag. Now I suppose they could put more work in, and hope for sales outside the core Shuffle group, but I think they'd reserve that effort for Ideas (and other VNs even) with more potential.

Quote:
It's entirely possible to create a VN adaptation that appeals to wider audiences than this hardcore crowd alone. I loved Clannad, and I liked Kanon 2006. At the time that I watched them, I had not played/read a lone VN in my life.
Yeah, but did you rush out to buy the 50$ DVDs? They're aiming to make sales to core fans. Just because you watched and liked it doesn't really factor into the equation, though it benefits the original VN makers for a good adaptation to serve as "advertising".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Uh wut. There are plenty of really good VN's out there. I think KEY VN's in fact represent some of the wors tof the upper tier VN's. KyoAni made the Clannad and Kanon2006 VN's much much better in the anime.

Depends really. Quality really does sell better. It accounts for the popularity of VN's like Ever17 which has zero echi/ero/fanservice/etc.

Seriously. There are tons of good VN's out there, in an array of genres waiting to be adapted if a studio is willing ot put in a little effort that I'M SURE could sell very well.

Just look at the shitty adaption of Fate/Stay Night that is making some very good sales by DEEN. Imagine if actual effort was put into it.
I didn't say that there aren't other good VNs outside of Key, just that the vast majority of VNs aren't very good. I mean that as no slight to VNs, the majority of everything is bad too. A lot of these adaptations are not made to create the next big thing, they're made because they know that fans of VN X will go out and pay absurd amounts of money for Anime DVDs of their favourite VN adaptation. The money is just waiting there to be collected.

Not everything has to be great work. If I'm walking on a street, and I'm feeling hungry, if I spot a food place nearby, so long as it looks half decent I don't care that much whether the food is Fish and Chips, or Fillet Mignon, I'll buy it either way. These lackluster VN adaptations are the proverbial Fish and Chips of the Anime world. They get made because a group of people can be depended on to buy them, regardless of how good they are, so long as it's coherent.

So why spend 300,000 per episode trying to take a risk on my show being a hit, when I can spend 100,000 per episode and still be guaranteed to get a healthy return? Meanwhile I can put that 200,000 in to making 2 other lacklustre VN adaptations that will also sell decently.

So it's the choice between making 3 lacklustre VN adaptations that will be pretty much guaranteed to make a modest profit each, or 1 good adaptation which may not be pulled off. Even if you put the resources in it may still turn out to be a dud. Look at Fractale. If studios had a definite formula for success they'd be milking it for all it's worth. The fact is, no one really knows ahead of time which shows are going to make it big. Some hits have come out of nowhere, while some highly anticipated shows fizzled out. In such an environment a show that guaranteed to make a modest return is a nice thing to have.
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Old 2011-08-03, 21:29   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post

Another thing to consider is that I don't think VN sales particularly vary. Most VNs cater to a hardcore crowd who'll buy it regardless of it's quality, along with their figurines and body pillows...
While I'll admit that some early titles like Tsukihime and Kanon 2002 sold pretty well despite their reputations, this isn't 02/03 anymore... its pretty common for VNs to sell only 1.5-2K copies the last few years. Heck, To Heart 2's adaptation sold under 3K despite being based on a huge game and that was in 2005. Granted, 1.5-2K is a far higher sales "floor" than for a few other genres, but its still not very good. I thinkUmineko showed that even hardcore VN fans have standards nowadays.

Contrast Steins;Gate. Like Umineko its a very plot centered VN, but Steins;Gate is being much more successful as an anime. And I'm really hoping that the industry is getting the message that high quality VN adaptation can be profitable from it.
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Old 2011-08-04, 08:11   Link #53
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
While I'll admit that some early titles like Tsukihime and Kanon 2002 sold pretty well despite their reputations, this isn't 02/03 anymore... its pretty common for VNs to sell only 1.5-2K copies the last few years. Heck, To Heart 2's adaptation sold under 3K despite being based on a huge game and that was in 2005. Granted, 1.5-2K is a far higher sales "floor" than for a few other genres, but its still not very good. I thinkUmineko showed that even hardcore VN fans have standards nowadays.

Contrast Steins;Gate. Like Umineko its a very plot centered VN, but Steins;Gate is being much more successful as an anime. And I'm really hoping that the industry is getting the message that high quality VN adaptation can be profitable from it.
It would be plausible that initially the novelty alone of their favourite VN getting an anime would have guaranteed sales. Perhaps after so many adaptations being released, the audience now demand some higher standards, it's likely the case that a given Otaku is devoted to several VNs, and so they'll buy the best adaptation out of those. Or simply that their VN getting an adaptation is no longer "special".
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Old 2011-08-05, 14:46   Link #54
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It's funny, I am of the other opinion. I only recently went into western live action shows and it's making hard to watch animes for me.

When I watch Walter White, Omar Little, Jimmy McNulty and many others, I think "this is what the animes studios should be doing" instead of feeding us with more lolis and middle schoolers ... (but then, if the lolis and kids were that well written, I probably wouldn't mind ...)
I am of the same camp as you sir.

Don't get me wrong there is a lot of crap on Western TV, but there is just as much crap within the genre of anime.

When measuring the greats from both groups I tend to find myself enjoying the western shows much more. I find the acting, cinematography, plot and character development (and just much better written characters), and overall structure and execution in the western shows to be much much better.

There is more substance and wonderment, I find, in shows like Breaking Bad, LOST, Deadwood, The Wire, etc. when compared to shows like Code Geass, Neon Genesis, K-on!, Haruhi, and such.

However its not like I don't find any anime shows ever reach such a level of quality. Heck I find Mushishi, Cowboy Bebop, and Spice and Wolf to be very great in many of those mentioned elements in my first paragraph.

I used to be of the same mindset when I first got into anime, I thought it was so much better than western TV, but when I actually developed my tastes and perspective of the art involved in visual storytelling/writing and looked more into other american TV shows, I found myself finding the great Western shows to beat out the great anime shows in most categories.
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Old 2011-08-05, 15:44   Link #55
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Western TV and anime really do two different things, so it's hard to compare. There are definitely good western shows, as there are good animes out there.

Are good western shows superior to good anime shows? I don't really feel this is the case. Western shows have different focuses in their writing than in anime, and it's hard to replicate both.

Is western TV more mature? If sex, drugs, and violence is maturity I guess so . But that's not all there is to maturity. Show me a show like Wandering Son in western television because as far as I know, it doesn't exist.

People should just learn to appreciate what each medium has. I do think I am able to find much more animes that I can enjoy than western television shows though.
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Old 2011-08-05, 21:17   Link #56
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My problem with western TV is that it lacks a certain sense of cohesion. The individual elements are often well done, but I don't like how western shows are more "serial". Basically a show will only end when it's been run into the ground. So it's rare for a western show to end on a "high note".

Meanwhile Anime rarely goes over 24 episodes, so you know going in that you're going to have a "beginning, middle and end". When you finish the final episodes you'll get a sense of closure. Now obviously, there are plenty of Anime with bad endings, but American dramas usually do pretty poorly on endings too...

I think British television is actually better then American Television. I quite liked House of Cards, for instance. The good thing about british shows is their brevity. In Britain they don't run shows a long time until it's run out. There are some exceptions of course.

However American and British TV never comes out with the levels of weirdness I consistently get with Anime. Some Anime is just ... really out there. Really inventive visuals and story telling. You just don't get that kind of thing here very often, and it's something you can't really get outside animation.
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Old 2011-08-05, 22:21   Link #57
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DemiSoda once wrote to me that western TV does action/thrillers better, while anime does daily living (i.e. "slice of life") better. Of course, he was speaking in a general sense.

I'm inclined to think there's a fair bit of truth to that, although there's probably a couple exceptions on both sides.


Anime often has a hard time building "intellectual suspense" for lack of a better term. Just compare 24 or The Wire to, say, Gosick and Kamisama Memochou.

The only anime I've recently watched that could build up "intellectual suspense" at the level of a truly good western TV show or movie is Madoka Magica.


On the flip side, though, I much prefer how anime handles average everyday moments. Even as a westerner myself (Canadian, specifically), I find that anime nails what average everyday life is really like more than most western shows do. Of course, this will vary from person to person depending on what the viewer's own life is like (or was like), but for me, I oddly enough find it a lot easier to relate to daily life in anime than to daily life in North American TV shows.


Aside from all of that, I agree with what DonQuigleone and Reckoner said. I actually think that anime's penchant for short set runs is a real strength for it. It focuses writers, and often helps to ensure that shows don't spiral out of control.

I don't want to get into a long discussion about it, but I was a regular viewer of the TV show Smallville for awhile, but I think that show has been running on fumes for awhile now, and probably would have benefited a lot from having a set episode count to better focus its writing staff on the "big picture" for the show.
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Old 2011-08-05, 22:32   Link #58
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There was a period when American tv experimented with mini-series - its how we got "Shogun" and "Roots". As Don says, British tv is much better about fixed-length series that actually tell a story.. .or at least series in which actual serious relationship changes happen in a remotely realistic pattern (Doc Martin and New Tricks, for example).

The set length of anime series (especially ones that *had* a beginning and an end) is one thing that really attracted me. The other was just the attitude towards life in the "daily life" series... it evokes principles and morals I would like to see more of.
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Old 2011-08-05, 23:51   Link #59
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Aye. My view is that TV series can feel like one of 2 things:

1. "A televised novel", whereby each episode is like a chapter out of a book.
2. "A continuing serial", whereby it's something that's supposed to air every week and you watch for a dependable bit of entertainment every night.

From a viewing perspective the televised novel has advantages over a serial, and it allows for a deeper immersive story.

Historically Japanese television drama and Anime has been dominated by the Televised novel format, very few Drama in japan last longer then a single run, quite a bit like Anime.

Historically American Television has been dominated by Serials, and only recently(last 10 years) has American TV started to experiment with televised novel formats (to great success). However I think TV producers have been producing the televised novel shows with a serial mindset. IE "we can stretch this plot until our ratings plumment", so they didn't really "get it", in Japan (and other television markets) they have a better understanding of how to use the form, and also how to build franchises out of otherwise limited and isolated storylines (EG, Noitamina is a kind of franchise, and gets higher ratings off the backs of previous series in the slot, and with the "brand").

Other countries have been similiar, Britain for instance has a long history of very short episode count series.
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Old 2011-08-08, 07:27   Link #60
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Anime often has a hard time building "intellectual suspense" for lack of a better term. Just compare 24 or The Wire to, say, Gosick and Kamisama Memochou.
I came here to post my opinion and I have a hard time labelling Gosick and Kamisama Memochou as intellectual suspense. They just happened to have some suspense and thrill, and more well-known maybe because of the lolis as the characters or as the main characters are teenagers.

I'd say Death Note and Shiki have more suspense and actually build up as good as live-action series, and also Paranoia Agent. Rather than using coincidences and cheap gimmicks to build the plot, it makes almost full use of each characters.

The real problem is that anime is still stuck in the old notion that the main demographic for it is otakus and teens. When there's a large amount of potential already untapped, the most production studios are reluctant to experiment outside their comfort zone, the only exceptions are Madhouse and Noitamina. Anime has just as much resources to build something intelligent if only there were more audiences for it.
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