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Old 2014-01-21, 13:54   Link #2661
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
1.) We don't know if there are any side effects.
If there are, that would make the possession a one-time-use. A strange time to use it up.

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2.) Sinbad's violating her in mind and body. The same Kougyokou who expressed nothing but love and friendship for Alibaba and Sinbad is being used as a pawn against her own country without any consent on her part whatsoever.
Yes, Kougyoku's a nice girl. And very naive. She also happens to be an enemy princess.

People don't need to be bad, or to hate to hurt people. Soldiers who otherwise would get along quite well will kill each other because they wear different uniforms.

Sinbad knows that if Sindria's to survive, Kou and Reim will both have to change or be destroyed. Kouen doesn't even entertain the idea of peaceful coexistence. So when Sinbad saw an opening, he took it. That's all it is.

It sucks it happened to a likable girl with a face and name. Well, it sucks to be on the path of an invading army or taken by slavers, too.

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3.) It's made all the worse due to the fact that up til then Alibaba had nothing but confidence and trust in Sinbad. Kougyokou is probably the last person that should be used in such a way, yet here we are.
Yeah, Alibaba's also rather naive. No wonder he and Kougyokyu get along.


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Not even. Kouen may have threatened Alibaba, but at the same time he tried to bargain with him. Kouen also offered legitimate criticism of Alibaba and engaged him on a personal and intellectual level. In short, Kouen was respectful of Alibaba even if he was aggressive towards him.
Kouen hasn't been honest with his aims, either. Judging by his conversation with his brother, any "respect" for Alibaba is completely superficial. They just do the best they can with the means they have, like Sinbad. It just happens that Sinbad's means include some mind control mojo, while theirs is mostly about big armies.
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Old 2014-01-21, 17:01   Link #2662
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If there are, that would make the possession a one-time-use. A strange time to use it up.
There was a "constant buzzing" in Kougyokou's ear ever since leaving Sindria. Sinbad has been using her ever since she left, even if outright possession may be new. It might take a long time for the damage to accumulate as well.

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Yes, Kougyoku's a nice girl. And very naive. She also happens to be an enemy princess.

People don't need to be bad, or to hate to hurt people. Soldiers who otherwise would get along quite well will kill each other because they wear different uniforms.

Sinbad knows that if Sindria's to survive, Kou and Reim will both have to change or be destroyed. Kouen doesn't even entertain the idea of peaceful coexistence. So when Sinbad saw an opening, he took it. That's all it is.
Sinbad hadn't even met Kouen when he placed that spell on Kougyokou. In fact, he'd met the former Emperor, Kouen's father, and he seemed to have become quite fond of Sinbad during the months he'd spent in Kou. They'd become "friends" if I recall...until Judar showed up and declared war, and to this day we have no idea if he did that on his own or if someone from Reim told him to.

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It sucks it happened to a likable girl with a face and name. Well, it sucks to be on the path of an invading army or taken by slavers, too.

Yeah, Alibaba's also rather naive. No wonder he and Kougyokyu get along.
Kougyokou is not naive. She's optimistic about the peace summit and explained why she was. She knows about the "fate" of the metal vessel users, that they all have to fight each other, but she thinks it might be avoided. Truthfully, she is correct since the one major hurtle to the summit being a success is because Kouen, Mu, and Sinbad all seem to think the other guys can't be trusted and are planning around that "inevitability".

None of them are interested in being equals or think they can exist as equals, mostly because they're just too damn cynical.

Truthfully of all the characters in the manga, she'd make a good moderator for the peace talks. She'd wipe out her hairpin, Djinn-Equip, and tell everyone to SIT THE FUCK DOWN AND GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!

Alibaba's the same way, but he's being dragged down by all the political intrigue that he can't think straight anymore.

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Kouen hasn't been honest with his aims, either. Judging by his conversation with his brother, any "respect" for Alibaba is completely superficial. They just do the best they can with the means they have, like Sinbad. It just happens that Sinbad's means include some mind control mojo, while theirs is mostly about big armies.
Kouen said he wants to conquer the world and to know everything. He's also spelled out his motives for doing so. That's about as honest as you get. He can also be reasoned with, despite the impression he likes to make that he can't be.
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Old 2014-01-21, 17:14   Link #2663
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
There was a "constant buzzing" in Kougyokou's ear ever since leaving Sindria. Sinbad has been using her ever since she left, even if outright possession may be new. It might take a long time for the damage to accumulate as well.



Sinbad hadn't even met Kouen when he placed that spell on Kougyokou. In fact, he'd met the former Emperor, Kouen's father, and he seemed to have become quite fond of Sinbad during the months he'd spent in Kou. They'd become "friends" if I recall...until Judar showed up and declared war, and to this day we have no idea if he did that on his own or if someone from Reim told him to.
Even if they hadn't met, I'm sure he gathered intelligence on him. And even if he hadn't, the Kou empire, itself, is the issue. Balbad wasn't its first or even second or third step on the path to world conquest. And Judal, whom Sinbad did know, was officially their Magi.

So, yeah. No matter how well they personally got along, any peace was strictly temporary.

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Kougyokou is not naive. She's optimistic about the peace summit and explained why she was. She knows about the "fate" of the metal vessel users, that they all have to fight each other, but she thinks it might be avoided. Truthfully, she is correct since the one major hurtle to the summit being a success is because Kouen, Mu, and Sinbad all seem to think the other guys can't be trusted and are planning around that "inevitability".

None of them are interested in being equals or think they can exist as equals, mostly because they're just too damn cynical.
And she's naive if she thinks they're headed for conflict because of the Metal Vessels. They're headed for conflict because at least two of them serve a world conquering empire, and the third at the very least doesn't want to be conquered.

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Truthfully of all the characters in the manga, she'd make a good moderator for the peace talks. She'd wipe out her hairpin, Djinn-Equip, and tell everyone to SIT THE FUCK DOWN AND GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!
And they'd all be utterly unimpressed with her display. None of them respect her intelligence (why would they?) and none of them fear her personal power.

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Kouen said he wants to conquer the world and to know everything. He's also spelled out his motives for doing so. That's about as honest as you get. He can also be reasoned with, despite the impression he likes to make that he can't be.
But he hasn't told Alibaba why he really wants him.
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Old 2014-01-21, 17:44   Link #2664
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And she's naive if she thinks they're headed for conflict because of the Metal Vessels. They're headed for conflict because at least two of them serve a world conquering empire
Isn't that the same thing. If Yunan is to be believed, there can only be one king and the fate of the Metal Vessels is to fight and decide who gets the crown. And that's basically what Koen and Sinbad are doing. They have their own particular way of doing things, but both are ultimately following Solomon's script and aiming to be the one king.
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Old 2014-01-21, 17:55   Link #2665
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Isn't that the same thing. If Yunan is to be believed, there can only be one king and the fate of the Metal Vessels is to fight and decide who gets the crown. And that's basically what Koen and Sinbad are doing. They have their own particular way of doing things, but both are ultimately following Solomon's script and aiming to be the one king.
We don't really know what Sinbad's aiming for.

And what I meant is that even if we took all the Metal Vessels out of the equation, they'd still be enemies. It's not about "fate", or some external force controlling them. They're all just acting as kings (or generals or whatever) of powerful nations do in that particular world.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:30   Link #2666
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Even if they hadn't met, I'm sure he gathered intelligence on him. And even if he hadn't, the Kou empire, itself, is the issue. Balbad wasn't its first or even second or third step on the path to world conquest. And Judal, whom Sinbad did know, was officially their Magi.

So, yeah. No matter how well they personally got along, any peace was strictly temporary.
There's nothing wrong with the Kou empire.

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And she's naive if she thinks they're headed for conflict because of the Metal Vessels. They're headed for conflict because at least two of them serve a world conquering empire, and the third at the very least doesn't want to be conquered.
Kou is the only one conquering anyone and their reasons for doing so are grounded in the idea that it's for the best. Strictly speaking, the only reason they desire world conquest is because of an overly cynical (though not ungrounded) political theory, borne out of what they believe to be necessity. They don't want wealth, power, or glory for personal fulfillment.

Reim hasn't expanded it's borders in 200 years. Despite waging wars with other countries, who'd violated their borders and attacked their people, Reim hasn't attempted to take any territory until the issue with Magnostadt, which was an exceptional circumstance if ever there were one.

And she's not the first one to allude to a confrontation between metal vessel users. En expressed the same thoughts 60 chapters ago, saying that he did not want to fight with his brothers to bring about the one king.

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And they'd all be utterly unimpressed with her display. None of them respect her intelligence (why would they?) and none of them fear her personal power.
They would if she were only one holding a metal vessel at the summit. That's what moderators do, bring order to forums and meetings so as to not lose perspective on the matter at hand.

As for her intelligence, she's plenty smart. She didn't understand the nonsense about Alma Toran, but neither did Alibaba when Aladdin explained it to him directly. Despite not even being expected to do anything other than marry someone, she was tutored by her Household user, Ka Koubun, and was smart enough to cut through Alibaba's bullcrap in Balbaad.

Obviously, if she's given the chance, she can really impress people.

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But he hasn't told Alibaba why he really wants him.
Did I miss something? En seemed pretty up front about what he wants from Alibaba.
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Old 2014-01-22, 01:59   Link #2667
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
There's nothing wrong with the Kou empire.
Except for the world conquering, slavery, and Al Tharmen's place in it.


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Kou is the only one conquering anyone and their reasons for doing so are grounded in the idea that it's for the best. Strictly speaking, the only reason they desire world conquest is because of an overly cynical (though not ungrounded) political theory, borne out of what they believe to be necessity. They don't want wealth, power, or glory for personal fulfillment.
That's just Kouen's rationalization for it. It probably wasn't his father's, it's not his men's.

Besides, it doesn't change the fact that he wants the world, and doesn't look inclined to change the world.

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Reim hasn't expanded it's borders in 200 years. Despite waging wars with other countries, who'd violated their borders and attacked their people, Reim hasn't attempted to take any territory until the issue with Magnostadt, which was an exceptional circumstance if ever there were one.

And she's not the first one to allude to a confrontation between metal vessel users. En expressed the same thoughts 60 chapters ago, saying that he did not want to fight with his brothers to bring about the one king.
Either you're right and they'll fight because that's what Metal Vessel holders do, or I'm right and they'll fight because in that world, that's what rulers do. Either way, they'll fight.

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They would if she were only one holding a metal vessel at the summit.
And why would they agree to that? Why wouldn't Mu or someone snap her neck the moment she shows up with one to threaten them?

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That's what moderators do, bring order to forums and meetings so as to not lose perspective on the matter at hand.
If she needs the threat of violence to do it, she's unsuitable to the role. Especially in a peace summit.

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As for her intelligence, she's plenty smart. She didn't understand the nonsense about Alma Toran, but neither did Alibaba when Aladdin explained it to him directly. Despite not even being expected to do anything other than marry someone, she was tutored by her Household user, Ka Koubun, and was smart enough to cut through Alibaba's bullcrap in Balbaad.
Even her brother considers her to be on the dumb side. Maybe not in absolute terms, but compared to him. And of course, she's from Kou. So, really, none of them has reasons to value her opinion. That's especially true since she's too dumb to see the writing on the wall.

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Obviously, if she's given the chance, she can really impress people.
She hasn't so far. Not being as dumb as a sack of bricks doesn't mean rulers with proven intelligence themselves will listen to her. Or should.

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Did I miss something? En seemed pretty up front about what he wants from Alibaba.
He pretended to want things from Alibaba. And yes, he has uses for him. But all he really wants is to take assets from Sinbad, especially Aladdin.
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Old 2014-01-22, 02:33   Link #2668
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Except for the world conquering, slavery, and Al Tharmen's place in it.
I don't think conquering the world is a bad thing. Practically every nation has those kinds of designs. Slavery is overrated, since most people don't even appreciate the freedom they have to begin with. Al Tharem is an anomaly that should be easy to exorcise...at the right time.

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That's just Kouen's rationalization for it. It probably wasn't his father's, it's not his men's.
Actually it was his uncle's. The Kou Empire really kicked off 30 or so years ago when the previous emperor conquered the warring tribes near Kou's territory, which lead to the development of Kou's current foreign policy. They have good intentions and so far those intentions have been vindicated, or so it would seem.

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Besides, it doesn't change the fact that he wants the world, and doesn't look inclined to change the world.
I don't think he does.

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Either you're right and they'll fight because that's what Metal Vessel holders do, or I'm right and they'll fight because in that world, that's what rulers do. Either way, they'll fight.
No, I don't think they'll fight. That's probably what Alibaba's role in the current arc is. To prevent that sort of tragedy from happening.

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And why would they agree to that? Why wouldn't Mu or someone snap her neck the moment she shows up with one to threaten them?
Because she was the appointed moderator to which they all agreed to, invested with enough power to adequately perform her job! Besides, Mu isn't going to break his future wife's neck.

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If she needs the threat of violence to do it, she's unsuitable to the role. Especially in a peace summit.
Hey, violence is always implied. Always. There's never been a conflict anywhere where violence wasn't a concern. Besides, I didn't say she'd attack them. Just scare them a bit so they'd sober up a bit and actually talk about what they're supposed to. She is a water user after all. Think of it was dunking them in water. Only it's a threat of a tsunami raining down on their heads.

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Even her brother considers her to be on the dumb side. Maybe not in absolute terms, but compared to him. And of course, she's from Kou. Slyo, really, none of them has reasons to value her opinion. That's especially true since she's too dumb to see the writing on the wall.
I don't think En thinks his baby sister is stupid. He wouldn't have promoted her to general if she couldn't perform all of the tasks that that role entails.

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She hasn't so far. Not being as dumb as a sack of bricks doesn't mean rulers with proven intelligence themselves will listen to her. Or should.
Actually, she has. She conquered a dungeon. The Djinn don't pick slackers to be their users. Obviously Veina was more impressed with Kougyokou than she was with Ka Koubon that conquered the dungeon with her, and Ka Koubon isn't stupid. He might be a little too wormy and a schemer, but the one that came out of the dungeon a King's Candidate was Kougyokou.

I think Kougyokou's development will be one of the best things to come out of the upcoming arc.

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He pretended to want things from Alibaba. And yes, he has uses for him. But all he really wants is to take assets from Sinbad, especially Aladdin.
So they didn't tell Alibaba just how valuable he was to them exactly? Nothing particularly sinister or dishonest about that.
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Old 2014-01-22, 14:58   Link #2669
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I don't think conquering the world is a bad thing. Practically every nation has those kinds of designs. Slavery is overrated, since most people don't even appreciate the freedom they have to begin with. Al Tharem is an anomaly that should be easy to exorcise...at the right time.
I could answer a lot of things, but whatever. If that's really what you think, it seems rather pointless.
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Old 2014-01-24, 13:55   Link #2670
CBredbeard
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Raw's out.
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Old 2014-01-24, 14:08   Link #2671
Breimoon
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yeah, alibaba seems really down
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Old 2014-01-25, 09:20   Link #2672
Avaricia
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Illuminati
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Old 2014-01-25, 18:46   Link #2673
marvelB
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Spoiler for Magi 212:
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Old 2014-01-25, 22:06   Link #2674
Bakaizer
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isn't the Kou Empire opposed to Al Tharmen?
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Old 2014-01-25, 22:26   Link #2675
CBredbeard
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isn't the Kou Empire opposed to Al Tharmen?
They are. Presumably Gyokouen and the priesthood have their own supporters among the royal court, the military, and the populace. They probably don't share Al Tharem's goals either.
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Old 2014-01-25, 23:30   Link #2676
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by nikohowell View Post
isn't the Kou Empire opposed to Al Tharmen?

Right now the emperor of the Kou Empire is the Gyokuen, who is the leader of Al Tharmen, so I wouldn't say they're opposed. Koen has considerably political and military power but I'm not sure it's enough to confront Gyokuen just yet.
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Old 2014-01-27, 02:27   Link #2677
hamazura
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this chapter is too godlike, will the next chapter become like summit of five kage and then sasuke hakuryuu and his friends will invade them?
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Old 2014-01-27, 06:15   Link #2678
Breimoon
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if sinbad used brainwashing on 3 persons, who are the other two? Could hakuryuu be one ?
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Old 2014-01-27, 22:36   Link #2679
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Breimoon View Post
if sinbad used brainwashing on 3 persons, who are the other two? Could hakuryuu be one ?
To me it is obvious that the other two must be from Reim and Magnostadt (this one is probably atm living in Sindria), from a resources mangagement point of view it would be dumb to have them getting info from only one country.
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Old 2014-01-27, 22:43   Link #2680
kyou13
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I hope Muu isn't controlled by Sin.
He's the main fighting force of Reim. If he's got by Sin then it's basically game over for them.
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