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Old 2012-11-13, 17:59   Link #541
LeaD36
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Aladdin didn't call Mogamett a good person, he called him a gentle one.
Mogamett isn't mislead by his ideals, since all he does is care for the people he deems most worthy. He isn't illnatured like the people who are guided by "black ruth".
The problem is that the difference between good and bad is a matter of perspective. The rukh aren't drawn to what we call the overall justice of the world, they are drawn to pure motives.
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Old 2012-11-13, 18:27   Link #542
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The rukh aren't drawn to what we call the overall justice of the world, they are drawn to pure motives.
True. Although ultimately it doesn't matter, since what he's doing is still a path that only leads to destruction as Aladdin noted at the end.
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Old 2012-11-13, 19:28   Link #543
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I just want to see Scheherazade vape Dumbodouche's ass for the insult of suggesting he's superior to her...
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Old 2012-11-13, 19:49   Link #544
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And so with Titus getting a new kitty to play with, he's suspicions on Dumblemort will quickly die down. It's actually a great play on his part, give the kid what he wants and he'll shut up, it's like a parent to a whiny child.

That said, Aladdin is now pretty much the only known one in that place that sees Dumblemort for what he really is. He was not wrong when he said the guy was a gentle person, he seems to truly love Magicians and has only thoughts of protecting and bettering them, the problem is simply how he views Goi as animals.
The way he treated those kids, it bothered me quite a lot...you cannot say a person is good and kind after treating children like that, even if they were really animals...

And one thing I noticed, Dumblemort referred to Magi as Legendary Magicians, in other words he considers Magi to be to same "species" as him, despite Magi being obviously superior (I really wanna see what Aladdin can do with his full power now, he should be quite devastating what with knowing how to properly work with magic but now without any magoi restrictions). I was actually expecting Magi to be placed above magicians in their mind...but I guess in Dumblemort's mind, Magicians are pretty much at the top of the food chain and anything stronger is simply a small and rare part of his species.

I really want to see how Aladdin solves this, his allies are diminishing and joining Dumblemort's belief's or being distracted like Titus (who I doubt with complain for a while having a new pet to play with).
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Old 2012-11-13, 20:15   Link #545
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And how old is Ren Gokyuen(their mother) supposed to be?
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:04   Link #546
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And how old is Ren Gokyuen(their mother) supposed to be?
Never commented, she Looks to be mid 30's, however and the brothers who were killed appeared to be 15-25 10 years ago.

So At the very youngest she would be 42. More likely she is in the 50's at the youngest. Probably keeps young with magic.

Or very good use of makeup.
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:43   Link #547
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For anyone interested in the ethical question of whether it could ever be acceptable to treat an innocent child horribly for the greater good, I recommend the award winning short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. LeGuin.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/du...nts.omelas.pdf

(It is an educational site so I assume linking to it is acceptable.)

Spoiler for Plot Summary from Wikipeedia:


Would you walk away from Omelas?
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:03   Link #548
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Originally Posted by Starshipw View Post
For anyone interested in the ethical question of whether it could ever be acceptable to treat an innocent child horribly for the greater good, I recommend the award winning short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. LeGuin.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/du...nts.omelas.pdf

(It is an educational site so I assume linking to it is acceptable.)

Spoiler for Plot Summary from Wikipeedia:


Would you walk away from Omelas?
Can I blow it up instead?

In all seriousness, it wouldn't work. It would only take a single person to start to fight against the cities way of prosperity to bring the whole thing down.
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Old 2012-11-13, 23:22   Link #549
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A perfectly reasonable desire, XFire, but would you really blow it up knowing tens of thousands might die in the upheaval, hundreds of innocent children starve to death, and whatever members of your family unlucky enough to survive would live out their days in abject poverty?
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Old 2012-11-13, 23:42   Link #550
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@Misconceptions of the system
Firstly, there is zero indication that most young ones die early like Marga. I am not sure where people pull that idea from, but the existance of young of non-dying young children is shown again and againm and the fact that there are actual youths (like in the teens) in the 5th would indicate that MOST 5th goi do not die young. Only people born with low Magoi, like Marga (or Morgiana if she was born here), would die young. Mogarett already said that death rates are far lower than it was before, this cannot be true of the young are dying en masse (considering the amount of screwing going on in the 5th, I doubt there is a lack of for such data to be "invisible").

Secondly, I don't really see the chancellor as a "Nazi". Again, he is more of a colonialist who thinks that the "barely human savages" should live under the "enlightened rule" of their betters. Replace "Magicians and Goi" with "Americans/Europeans and Rest of the World", and you have the thinking that still persists in some circles till this day. I think there should be clarity on the difference between "Colonialist" thinking and actual "Nazi" thinking. Mostly because, Nazi is such a loaded word that it becomes thought terminating these days. He already said he is not out to abuse or kill all the Goi (that would make him Nazi), he merely thinks that the Goi are not capable of ruling themselves and needs to be kept down permanently for the good of everyone, including the Goi themselves (that is Colonialist thinking).

Thirdly, Mogarett doesn't have black rukh because he seriously believed in what he is doing. He does sincerely want a place for Magicians. The girl from Kou already said how she is seen as a freak back at home, while Sphintus showed us how Magicians are being used by non-Magicians for political purposes, then discarded. All I can say again, is that Mogarett is basically what Magneto is originally, before they watered down his character. I don't see how he mentions he is "superior of Scheherazade", he merely says that he wants to help people with magical potential like Yamu and Scheherazade to avoid the fate of being exploited by the Goi for their own ends. Note that if Yamu really IS burning her own lifespan to help Sinbad, I would consider Sinbad to be as horrible as the Mustaphim nobility in terms of exploitation. And from what I see of Sinbad, that is totally within what he is capable of if it protects his Kingdom.

Of course, his view of seeing Goi as merely animals is detestable. But as Aladdin said, this makes him beyond good and evil...just...well...crazy...with some good intentions and alot of trauma from his own past.

@How to solve the problem

Ultimately, the question is really complex here. "Blowing shit up" isn't going to save anyone. To save everyone, the real difficult questions are as follows.

1) Without the magoi contributions to the magical devices, how is the nation supposed to maintain the level of crop production that made it possible to feed everyone? Remember, the 5th Goi are no longer subjected to things like famine, despite their unproductivity. One of the defining features of the current regime is that the Goi basically pay for their own food with their Magoi (which is actually fairer than forcing magicians to use their Magoi on crops for the sake of the Goi). Blowing stuff up merely will cause mass famine for everyone, including the Goi that such an action is meant to help.

2) Despite the unhappiness of some of the young 5th at a destiny they never chose for themselves. A large population of the 5th do not want to be productive, as seen on the "field trip" of the magician students. They will never get such an impression if most of the 5th Goi actually want out.

More problematically, they had been unproductive for a long time (10 years). That amount of time being unproductive make people lose essential skills that are needed for work. Especially if a majority had not farmed in years? More importantly, the young of the 5th have absolutely ZERO skills to speak of. By releasing them from this system, how are they suppose to find employment or be productive when they don't even know how to farm?

Everyone can say that everybody can pick up themselves by their bootstraps, but people who think like that never saw people who have been out of the labour market for decades. In reality, "going back to work" after a prolonged period of "not working" is difficult. This is due to the suden liefstyle change and the fact that these people do not possess the skill that is in demand by the economy by then.

3) The 5th Goi youths might be unhappy with their current existance. Yet the real question is that under the old Mustaphim, would their lot really be any different? Right now, they are fed, given medical care and kept warm, but are condemned to a life of unproductivity and zero opportunity. Under the old monachy, they would be hungry, vulnerable to disease and cold, while still being condemned to a life of slaving in the fields with almost no other opportunity. Any "blowing up" of a system like this requires answering how are things such as opportunity are supposed to be afforded to the youths of 5th?

4) What kind of status should the Magicians have in this new system? While I do not buy Mogarett's idea that they are fundamentally a different species from the normal humans, the fact is that their abilities already make them functionally different from normal humans. As a result, equality of treatment is nearly impossible, in the light of their natural abilities that normal humans do not have. Are they obliged to help the Goi at the expense of their own lives when there are natural disasters (like in the old Monarchy), just because they have the power to? How are we supposed to prevent the exploitation of the magicians by the masses? Right now the system basically make every 5th Goi "substitute" the livelihood of other 5th Goi by draining Magoi indiscriminately, instead of the old way of making the Magicians "substitute" the livelihood of the Goi by burning down their lives. In some sense, it is actually fairer than it was before.

If it was up to popular vote, the Magicians would almost always be outvoted on situations in which the magicians would sacrifice for the "greater good". Democracy does not necessary solve that problem, without basic decency from the electorate (which is lacking, seeing how they behaved in the old Kingdom). In a non-magician-ruled kingdom, the Kings/Aristocrats would always monoplize and oppress the Magicians as they are the key to political power, which would have led us back to the Mustashim situation. So, how do we make sure there is no repeat of such shit?

I am interested to see what kind of proposal people who want to "blow up the system" have to answering such issues.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-13 at 23:53.
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Old 2012-11-13, 23:46   Link #551
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And how old is Ren Gokyuen(their mother) supposed to be?
I don't have the scan of the image that cites her age, but she's 48.

Yay for Al-Sarmen plastic surgery.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:00   Link #552
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A perfectly reasonable desire, XFire, but would you really blow it up knowing tens of thousands might die in the upheaval, hundreds of innocent children starve to death, and whatever members of your family unlucky enough to survive would live out their days in abject poverty?
That brings up an interesting philosophical argument. Should I destroy the city, driving the people away for the sake of a single child, and slaughtering hundreds in an instant? Or should I turn my back and simply allow the continuation of a system literally built on human suffering?

Though to be perfectly honest, I'd probably forgo physical destruction as opposed to freeing the child and leaving the city to it's fate. Either they abandon or die with the city, or they try to get someone else to replace the child. And I'm sure that wouldn't start a civil war or anything.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:03   Link #553
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I just want to see Scheherazade vape Dumbodouche's ass for the insult of suggesting he's superior to her...
He went waaaay over his head when he started talking about OH NOES THAT POOR GIRL
Dude she's like, two hundred years old.

I'm not certain Dumberdumb realize just how Magi is on a totally different plane of existence.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
I don't have the scan of the image that cites her age, but she's 48.

Yay for Al-Sarmen plastic surgery.
Yeah that's what they say.
I'm willing to bet her REAL age is in triple digits, if not quad.
I mean, the Al-Sarmen in meetings talked centuries like it was mere week ago, not to mention one of the magician when confronted with Aladdin pretty much verified he existed since the ancient days of Solomon.

"did I say 48? Whoops, I meant 2048."
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:17   Link #554
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Depends on what the intention is in behind 'blowing up the system'. It's easy to say, 'Kill em all and let God sort them out' - it denotes a lack of wanting the responsibility for all the lives ruined by that act. It's one thing to lack a certain basic skill because of being lazy and slothful and it's one's own damn fault. It's another thing to place the same sort of blame on someone who doesn't know anything else BUT to be slothful because that's all they've ever known. On a black and white scale, both are still wrong. Question is, what to do about it?

To get a truly perfect system on this earth is impossible all because 'someone' will buck it. Yet, to have a nigh perfect system rest upon someone who has NO chance of escaping having the weight of living negatively from everyone one else, or even receiving relief from it can't be a truly perfect city.

I can only suggest broad things to do for 5th and unfortunately, many people will not survive the change. Only those who want to change themselves will find the strength to move past it. You won't be able to save everyone in that city because not everyone wants to be saved. Does it make you wrong that you will basically let them die in favor of the others that will follow? It's common sense to do it - salvage what you can and count your losses. Saving everyone is impossible, even God won't be able to save everyone in the end (Hell exists for a reason, ya know). It might seem callous but only if you don't put our upmost effort into trying to save as many as possible.

So, what would I do? Make them uncomfortable - take away their comforts that they've come to rely on. Break them off at a measured pace that gets them agitated enough to start questioning and wondering. You then show them what is needed for them to get the food that they are hungry for. You show them the work that needs to be done. Yes, many of them will turn their noses up and refuse to work but the age-old trial of 'No Work, No Eat' hasn't become out-dated. If they don't at least attempt to help, then they won't eat. They'll probably need a lot of time to get used to that concept. Good work is rewarded with a simple wage of having enough to eat, bad work is corrected/retrained and cheating/laziness is punished severely. I'm not suggesting a completely totalitarian or a socialist state - there are so many little tweaks that need to be in there that should be applied, but it's late and I don't want to go into that right now.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:22   Link #555
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
He went waaaay over his head when he started talking about OH NOES THAT POOR GIRL
Dude she's like, two hundred years old.

I'm not certain Dumberdumb realize just how Magi is on a totally different plane of existence.
He didn't say OH NOES THAT POOR GIRL.

He said:
"But...It doesn't matter if she is Magi or not"
"That's right, what that matters is that she thinks she must sacrifice herself (for the sake of the Goi) due to her "special powers", thinking that it is what she wants and what she must do."
"I am sad is for these magician children (that think this way)..."
"I am anxious for them.."
"I want to help them!"

I don't think he is under any illusion that the Magi are far stronger than he is. However, what he wants to free them off is the idea that they (meaning all Magicians, including the Magi) should sacrifice themselves for the Goi, just like he did in the past. It is a ideology thing than a superiority thing. To him, it is like stopping a person from doing a suicidal attempt to help a lost/stupid cause. Note that he also refered to Yamu and other magician children towards the end.

We all know that he already dropped the bomb that Yamu could possibly die young from how she helps Sindaria. From what we know of Sinbad, I think he would totally do that if it means further securing Sindaria. Then there is always the possibility that Yamu simply keeps it from Sinbad that she is burning her own lifespan to help a nation she loves.

I think you are making it sound more unreasonable then it is.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:27   Link #556
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
He didn't say OH NOES THAT POOR GIRL.

He said:
"But...It doesn't matter if she is Magi or not"
"That's right, what that matters is that she thinks she must sacrifice herself (for the sake of the Goi), thinking that it is what she wants and what she must do."
"What I am sad is for these magician children (that think this way)..."
"I am anxious for them.."
"I want to help them!"
In other words, "OH NOES THAT POOR GIRL".

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I think you are making it sound more unreasonable then it is.
And I think you completely missed my point.
He's over his HEAD. If I pity Zeus on his position, and Zeus actually exists, I'm pretty sure I'd be over my head too.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:32   Link #557
Rainrir
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In other words, "OH NOES THAT POOR GIRL".
Well, if you want to be that reductionist and simplify everything, then yeah...there is an element of that. However, do note that he also referred to other magicians, who do not have the ability to draw Magoi from the air, that are right now burning themselves out due to what he thinks is a misguided sense of duty towards the Goi. This includes Yamu, who isn't a Magi (and who he acknowledges as incredible talented).

Heck, even Scheherazade isn't fully confirmed to be a Magi yet at this stage. Who knows the reality behind that?

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He's over his HEAD. If I pity Zeus on his position, and Zeus actually exists, I'm pretty sure I'd be over my head too.
You can be concerned for people more capable/intelligent/powerful than yourself making bad choices, that's not being over your head. Just because they have "X" or "Y" or "Z" trait that makes them "better" than you, does not mean you cannot have a point or that they cannot be misguided on certain things. Unless of course, you just shut up when confronted by someone better than you in real life....

Sure, Zeus can vaporize me in a instant if he exists, doesn't stop me from still thinking or even saying that he shouldn't have f***ed around left and right. If I actually challenged him to a duel, then yeah I am in over my head. However, commenting/calling him out on what I think he does wrong? Not so much.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:34   Link #558
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He thinks Yamu is supplying the magoi herself.
He's not even aware that Sindbad, you know, the friggin' MAGOI TANK SUPERSTAR is actually pitching in.

What are you, Magnostatt worshipper?

These defenses are just as weak as Dumberdouche's goi-be-animals logic!
(and I mean Dumberthandumb's defenses, that you're for some reason devilsadvocating, not necessary your own)


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You can be concerned for people more capable/intelligent/powerful than yourself making bad choices, that's not being over your head. Just because they have "X" or "Y" or "Z" trait that makes them "better" than you, does not mean you cannot have a point or that they cannot be misguided on certain things. Unless of course, you just shut up when confronted by someone better than you in real life....

Sure, Zeus can vaporize me in a instant if he exists, doesn't stop me from still thinking or even saying that he shouldn't have f***ed around left and right. If I actually challenged him to a duel, then yeah I am in over my head. However, commenting/calling him out on what I think he does wrong? Not so much.
Zeus isn't some "person" better than me.
He is a freaking GOD. You know, not human? Deities?

You're talking like Zeus is a CEO of some company.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:37   Link #559
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@Misconceptions of the system
Does all that even matter? Whether Mogamett is evil or not is besides the point. Even Aladdin himself finally understood that. It doesn't matter. What matters is that his prejudice is going to draw the world into darkness, even if that's not his intention at all.

As for how to stop him... you don't need to blow up his whole city. You just need bring him down. Once Aladdin or someone else defeats him, things will move from there. With some modifications to make things more fair for the goi the system could even be left in place. After the all, they don't need to treat them like livestock and force them to stay there for the system to work. They do that right now just due to Mogamett's prejudice.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:39   Link #560
Rainrir
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
He thinks Yamu is supplying the magoi herself.
He's not even aware that Sindbad, you know, the friggin' MAGOI TANK SUPERSTAR is actually pitching in.

What are you, Magnostatt worshipper?

These defenses are just as weak as Dumberdouche's goi-be-animals logic!
Where did it say Sinbad is pitching in? As far as I know, Sinbad only uses the barrier to find and kick Elsnan's ass after he tried to escape. Sinbad is a super Magoi Battery, but that doesn't mean he is actively maintaining the barrier. He could have helped make it, but not sure on the maintainace part. Can he even do that without his Metal Vessels? Does that mean that Sindaria is defenseless when he isn't wearing his metal vessels? I don't think they will live that big a hole in Sindaria's defenses.

Also I am not a Mognostatt worshipper. I just don't like reductionist arguments.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Does all that even matter? Whether Mogamett is evil or not is besides the point. Even Aladdin himself finally understood that. It doesn't matter. What matters is that his prejudice is going to draw the world into darkness, even if that's not his intention at all.
Yeah. It doesn't matter. However, it matters when we are looking at how we view a character. Most arguments I see just paints a simplistic black/white carciturre which really limits the interpetation of Mogarett's character. In the process, it makes the whole issue much less interesting. (Just look at some other forums that are already complaining that "why is the author reexplaining what we already know..QQITSUX".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
As for how to stop him... you don't need to blow up his whole city. You just need bring him down. Once Aladdin or someone else defeats him, things will move from there. With some modifications to make things more fair for the goi the system could even be left in place. After the all, they don't need to treat them like livestock and force them to stay there for the system to work. They do that right now just due to Mogamett's prejudice.
I am not really interested in the "what ought to be" than "how we should we achieve what ought to be". It is easy to say "let's make it fair for the 5th Goi", however I think it basically understates the difficulty of actually doing it. Killing Mogamett will achieve what? Especially when you have a system where most of the ruling elite buys his ideology. Not to mention that Mogarett's ideology is actually based somewhat in reality (instead of you know Nazi ideology that basically is based totally in fantasy). Even reasonable people like Sphintus thinks that a Magician Nation is necessary, and the Goi do exploit the magicians if they can.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 00:54.
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