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Old 2013-04-09, 11:34   Link #1421
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
You're all ragging on Moga for not being Jesus? Talk about he who is without sin, man.
Uh, there's a lot of ground to cover between Jesus and oh I dunno, an asshole who tourtures and kills children, and enslaves vast majority of the nation.
Not to mention, he's forcefully damning their souls to hell for eternity.

"OMG if you're not Jesus then you're no better than Mogamett!!!111"
That is the worst strawman I've ever seen.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:03   Link #1422
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I'd need more info on the "mental disturbance" spell before calling out Mogamett on being really twisted. Using mostly dead people for black rukh is pretty dodgy though. Magoi harvesting, sure, okay; but taking them when they're almost dead and doing some sort of brainwashing so you can get black rukh?

If only the guy hadn't completely snapped. Pulled a total 180 from "help all humans!" to "non-magi are insects!"

If Mogamett pulls another 180 because of Aladdin's wisdom of solomon, I'll get some good laughs. But I like Mogamett because of his younger idealism and the potential of the country. So it'll be fine with me. They need to get rid of the death pits though.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:30   Link #1423
Kanon
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His 180 hasn't been sudden though. It's the result of years and years of suffering.

I don't think Aladdin will be able to make him see the error of his ways unless something dramatic happens (like his djinns killing magicians). He's too far gone. He will probably still save him though. He managed to return Ithnan's rukh to the great flow, so no reason he can't do it for Moga and those other people.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:40   Link #1424
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
His 180 hasn't been sudden though. It's the result of years and years of suffering.

I don't think Aladdin will be able to make him see the error of his ways unless something dramatic happens (like his djinns killing magicians). He's too far gone. He will probably still save him though. He managed to return Ithnan's rukh to the great flow, so no reason he can't do it for Moga and those other people.
Um, he's dead. He said activating the Djinn would kill him. So unless he's inside one of them, redemption ain't happening.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:53   Link #1425
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Um, he's dead. He said activating the Djinn would kill him. So unless he's inside one of them, redemption ain't happening.
Not save his life. Save his afterlife. His rukh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
I wasn't really clear on my stance with Moga before, let me clarify

To sum it all up I think he's what would happen if Hitler was a wizard (in a way), I agree with the fact that his reasons for doing what he did are logically justifiable; he's also a respectable person, but there is just no way I can sympathize with someone who actively tortures people and drives them into despair.

What I like even less about Moga is that his way of thinking and/or methods seem to have become pretty popular among the high-ranking magicians, this is just my personal opinion but that sort of mindset is going to put the very people he wanted to protect on a self-destructive path.

Now I wonder how the hell Kouha can survive a massive djinn blast to the face, I bet 10 bucks he's gone full djinn equip and used that giant blade as a shield (somehow I'm scared to see his full djinn equip considering his djinn is female).
Eh. I don't have any issue with your view of Mogamett (save maybe for the Hitler comparison. It doesn't really fit).

My problem is when people forget that he's not the only bad guy around and start praising Kou or Reme. It doesn't matter how cool Kouha or the Fanalis look. Or how personally nice they are. They aren't there to serve justice or liberate the oppressed. They're there because they think that "the other guy's army is weaker than mine" is a perfectly good justification to conquer and enslave his people. Remember what Kou nearly did to Balbad? And while we haven't seen the the evils of Reme in as much detail, even Sheherazad is ashamed, even as she hopes it's just a phase.

Heck, if Kou and Reme hadn't come, Mogamett would have died of old age before killing the Fifth District as he did. (The criminals would still have been screwed, though. And his replacement might have been even worse.)

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2013-04-09 at 18:15.
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Old 2013-04-09, 18:00   Link #1426
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Um, he's dead. He said activating the Djinn would kill him. So unless he's inside one of them, redemption ain't happening.
I'm talking about his rukh. Unless I misunderstood, it's inside the black djinns right now and that's how he controls them. He said his rukh would keep existing as hatred for eternity. Aladdin will save him from that fate.
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Old 2013-04-09, 19:42   Link #1427
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vol 17

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Old 2013-04-09, 19:46   Link #1428
Grey
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I'm talking about his rukh. Unless I misunderstood, it's inside the black djinns right now and that's how he controls them. He said his rukh would keep existing as hatred for eternity. Aladdin will save him from that fate.
I wonder if that means the black rukh from the other people sent down there exists as hate in the djinns too. That would be...really weird.
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:23   Link #1429
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Wow, that's a happy family right there isn't it?
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Old 2013-04-09, 23:07   Link #1430
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post
Such a happily looking cover for a volume full of controversial topic: race discrimination, torture, slavery, genocide, war...I guess this is what people called: "Don't judge a book by its cover." ^^
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Old 2013-04-09, 23:58   Link #1431
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I sstill find it funny that hardly no knows gives schezarede shit for invading another country because her spy was caught. . .especially given that she is a magi herself, lived for hundreds of years. . .built her own country with her king etc, shes responsible for killing people (the wizards) too. . .

but oh no when mogamett does something bad, lets all jump on him.

If only mogamett were a cute loli, I'm pretty sure all would be forgiven!

Am I right or am I right?

really there is no arguement to excuse shez if you don't offer that same argument to moga. shez killed people for a lot less than having the world shit on her(moga) her whole life.

aohige always comebacks with some b.s. like "oh magnoschnatt invaded other countries in the past, so its ok that schez invaded mangoschnatt"

which is basically saying "yeah, one country invaded others many many years ago and conquered them, killed their people, and that was bad but its ok for schez NOW to invade another country, conquer them(almost anyway), kill their people because magnoschnatt did it in the past.

yeah this is stupid and doesn't work.

but it does since it was a cute loli that did it, so lets beat up on the old man and praise the cute loli, because she's cute and underage (looking).

hell even the author has seemed to have given her a pass with no consequences to invading a country and killing its people.

oh wait shes going to die in a few days. . .

so you're telling me that basically there was no point to her invading the country? I mean if she did it to take back titus, and not really for the"wmds" which weren't that big of a problem . . .which she could have probably just talked to magno about instead of ...killing them. so really there was no point to kill the mages at all schezarade, hell titus AND schez probably would have died during the war if aladdin didn't save them, and then BOTH countries would have been screwed, millions of lives lost for nothing, and the aggressor: the cute loli that you guys give a pass to.

yes mogamett is a tool, but so is schez, and really is shez had just let titus do what he wanted, she would not have had to kill people, she wouldn't have to be a murderer. THEN once moga revealed his dark djinn thing, I'd be like "damn this guy is an ass and needs to be stopped"(which is what I thought before schez decided to butt in!)

NO ONE GETS A PASS EVEN IF THEY ARE A CUTE UNDERAGED(LOOKING) LOLI

seriously guys. . .seriously.really there is no argument here, both of these people are bad news and a needless war happened which will probably end up in reim being destroyed by Kou's OTHER armies since you know, ALL of reims forces are in magnoschnatt and only one of kou's forces is there...where do you think the rest of their armies are for a country that wants to take over the world, just sitting idly at home playing Mahjong?

really there is no redemption for schez, just like there is none for mago, but at least mago willing paid the price, while shez gets a free pass.

but hey, schez is a cute underaged loli, she could wipe out the entire planet due to her actions, but hey, its ok! she's cute!
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Old 2013-04-10, 00:30   Link #1432
Anh_Minh
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Two points:
- the beautiful people of Kou also get a pass. Yeah, I don't know how that happened either.
- where did you get the idea that all the armies of Reme was in Magnostadt? There's just an expeditionary force led by what's been implied is a relatively low status general (because he's of mixed blood).
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Old 2013-04-10, 02:03   Link #1433
aohige
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1. Magnoshutatt being absorbed by the Kou Empire was the biggest concern for Scheherazade, who was about to reach the end of her life. She needed to remove that threat as soon as possible before she died.
2. Magno's smuggling of magic items were already threatening the safety of her citizens.

It's not justified, but it's basically US-style preemptive strike on a nation.
It's like what if JFK had cancer, and a month to live and he took action on Cuba preemptively.

Scheherazade's hasty decision is not to be praised, but WHY it was necessary for her empire is clear.

I can't say the same about a man who mindrapes people's soul into eternal damnation in the darkness, or a man hellbent in conquering the entire world.
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Old 2013-04-10, 02:30   Link #1434
Seitsuki
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Isn't it bloody obvious why Moga has to do that? Cos if not the other countries would stomp right over them. Heck, they would have done so regardless if it weren't for Aladdin's divine intervention. Let's analyse what Moga's options were:

Moga kept loving and serving 'humanity' (never orchestrated the coup)-- Magicians keep being used and abused, treated like cattle, discarded on a mass basis. It's far worse than Level 5, where the goi at least get to live their lives, so if everyone feels righteous indignation at that already then we can safely rule this out. Heck, it's worse than Moga's black rukh farm because if you don't think the magicians forced to endure that shit wouldn't curse their fate then there's nothing else to say. Moga 'only' damns a few, this is all of the freaking magicians! That's like eternal genocide. No.

The coup occured, then Moga went back to being nice/tried to initiate equality/whatever-- No. We all saw that the coup only happened because of peoples greed, ambition, and cruelty. The problem wasn't the leadership, it was the society. Even if the magicians had wanted equality- why should the goi give it to them? They're just fine as rainmakers and meatshields! Equality cannot be achieved if only one side desires it. Slavery never went away until the Europeans themselves opposed it; apartheid because the international community condemned it; it's a fact. Just the magicians wanting it would have done jack shit. Unless they turned to violence, and then what? Mutual annihilation? I think we can rule this out too.

Which leaves establishing a magician's country as Moga's only solution. Unless you believe the goi are just that much more important than magicians, the manga has clearly portrayed that with the society as it was there was no other way for magicians to improve their lot. Valuing them both equally, which is a grace the goi certainly never gave, leaves simply 'history is decided by the victors'. Works for goddamn everyone in our world, why not theirs?


Which brings us back to why they're creating black rukh: they need everything they can get to survive. It's just as necessary, and not even pre-emptive. Probably still not enough anyway. But ok for lolis and not for old geezers? Who woulda thought?
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Old 2013-04-10, 02:43   Link #1435
Anh_Minh
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After Mogamett became king, he could have (tried to, at least) built a kingdom where everyone, goi and magicians, had hope, and could work together. Sinbad did.

Though I'd point out it's not that black in Magnostadt - a fair number of Goi seemed quite willing to fight to defend their country, and to respect the magicians (rather than fear them), so it can't have been that bad for them.
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Old 2013-04-10, 10:23   Link #1436
Kanon
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Oh please, not the "You're harsher on Moga because he's not a cute loli" defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Which brings us back to why they're creating black rukh: they need everything they can get to survive. It's just as necessary, and not even pre-emptive. Probably still not enough anyway. But ok for lolis and not for old geezers? Who woulda thought?
When did Scheherazade ever create black rukh and condemned countless people to eternal damnation? I must have missed that. Moga crossed a line that should never be crossed in this chapter. It doesn't matter how justified he was, his actions are morally wrong.

That's not to say Scheherazade is an angel. Moga and her were on the same level before this chapter, neither was worse than the other. They both undertook questionable actions to protect their country. However, this time, Moga went too far. I don't see what's so hard to understand. I would give Sche as much flak if she had done the same. Thing is, she hasn't.
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Old 2013-04-10, 11:57   Link #1437
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Oh please, not the "You're harsher on Moga because he's not a cute loli" defense.



When did Scheherazade ever create black rukh and condemned countless people to eternal damnation? I must have missed that. Moga crossed a line that should never be crossed in this chapter. It doesn't matter how justified he was, his actions are morally wrong.

That's not to say Scheherazade is an angel. Moga and her were on the same level before this chapter, neither was worse than the other. They both undertook questionable actions to protect their country. However, this time, Moga went too far. I don't see what's so hard to understand. I would give Sche as much flak if she had done the same. Thing is, she hasn't.
Black rukh is a product of despair. The kind of things that happen when a country is conquered and its population enslaved, which is how the Empire became an empire. You don't need to actually have a use for it. You don't need to be a magician.
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Old 2013-04-10, 19:31   Link #1438
vickie7
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Am I the only one who started seeing similarities between Kouha and Alibaba, even with their contrasting personalities?

Spoiler for why:
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Old 2013-04-10, 23:06   Link #1439
aohige
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@Seitsuki

Moga forced unwilling people into depravity, dooming them to eternal suffering. Any and all argument ends right there.
You're trying to justify something that cannot be justified.

Hitler can't send people to hell. Moga did exactly that. To countless people. He is worse.

The author is definitely not justifying his actions, so you're probably gonna get even more upset if you continue with this hard-on for Mogadick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Black rukh is a product of despair. The kind of things that happen when a country is conquered and its population enslaved, which is how the Empire became an empire. You don't need to actually have a use for it. You don't need to be a magician.
No, the term depravity (actually it's a fictional fantasy word in the original Japanese, daten, which is a different spelling of fallen, spelt to mean fallen and turned) is not a real-life status. It's kinda lost in the translation, but it's an actual mystical, magical form of turning evil. It is the "Dark side of the Force". It's not something that can normally happen to anyone suffering, it is a specific, mystical state of depravity.

Being depressed can create black rukh with the help of Al Sarmen and the dark Magi, Judal. But it is not a normal, natural state.
A simple despair of mortal kind does not cause one to fall into depravity, otherwise the slum residents of Balbaad would have been condemned to hell already.
Suffering alone does not cause depravity, it is a state of mind, becoming the embodiment of hate itself (by hating the world and his/her fate)

Like I said, it's a translation loss - it is in fact, a state of mystical qualities. An eternal condemnation of the soul.
Which is why it required sorcery to create the dark farms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Though I'd point out it's not that black in Magnostadt - a fair number of Goi seemed quite willing to fight to defend their country, and to respect the magicians (rather than fear them), so it can't have been that bad for them.
Yeah, the few Goi who were NOT thrown into the fifth district.
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Old 2013-04-11, 00:43   Link #1440
marvelB
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This is a bit off-topic, but the re-emergence of the "lolimagi is an evil tyrant" discussion reminded me of one of the rare few examples of a truly menacing female villain in a shounen series: Dakki from Houshin Engi. Now SHE was a damned good example of cruel dictator with a cute face (and she wasn't a loli either, heh ). Not only was she powerful, manipulative, and cunning, but she also had some rather extreme methods of punishing her enemies. Now it's been a good while since I last read the series, but a couple of punishments that I recall from the top of my head was this tiger beer garden thing (where a bunch of roaming tigers killed the kings she invited to her palace), and her literally turning a prince into a hamburger and feeding him to his father. That right there should tell you how much of a sadistic bitch she was.....


And even crazier is that despite all of the cruel things she did, she never had any proper comeuppance (at least in the manga..... if I recall, she actually DOES get killed in the anime version). I mean, sure, lolimagi rushed straight to war with barely any attempt at negotiation, but at least she had a noble cause. Dakki, on the other hand, would be more prone to invade a neighboring country just for the heck of it! Man, was she an awesome villain..... I wish we had more like her.



Uh, so back on topic: Dumberdork is still the bigger douche!
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