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Old 2011-11-19, 00:14   Link #2461
Tiresias
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About the hate exhibited toward Shu, I think this quote from a certain Vampire Slayer series is quite appropriate:

But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.

But that's only half the reason. There are many other stories where the protagonist started as "normal", and only got story-changing powers at the end of the first act/chapter/level/episode. Thing is, those characters do not stay helpless, unmotivated and unworthy - eventually, for some reason or another they'll start to become more motivated and takes a more proactive role in the story instead of just following where the wind goes and become everybody else's gofer.

And don't start telling me that his reaction was "realistic"; none in this story is grounded in realism or even just plain sensibility, ranging from the cops not doing a body search on Shu when the didn't find the Void Genome to Gai not immediately taking the vial from Shu when he had the chance (and then Brilliant Fearless Leader blamed others for this?) to a foot soldier beating a mech with just a handgun to all those ridiculous body outfits to the whole "pilot experiences excruciating pain when remote-operated mech receives damage" ordeal...the list goes on and on and on and on.


Heck, one reason why I'm not too hard on Shu is the stupid, unrealistic, not sensible way Funeral Parlor treated him. What, no propaganda, no pamphlets, no heart-to-heart dialogue on how and why Shu's doing a great and noble thing, no grand speech on how eeeeviiiil the heathen oppressors are and why they must kick the invaders out?

Yes, Shu has already seen GHQ committing mas murder, but from the apathetic and uninterested stance he took afterwards that it is clear that more convincing arguments are required. Remember that the only reason he joined was for the girl.

What's that? Their response to him is typical to one towards new recruits? Well that's understandable I guess...had Shu been a normal recruit. But he's not. He's not some random shmuck on the street, he's the wielder of a power with vast capabilities, a versatile force multiplier the world has never seen - Doraemon in the form of a teenager. Mind you, that capability includes widespread destruction.

Considering his potential value, they should be the one trying to win his trust, not the other way around.

And yet they treated their Person of Mass Destruction, one who is constantly doubting whether joining is the right thing to do, like shit?

Hah! Even Shinji ikari, prime example of spineless protagonist, finally snapped after all his ordeal and gave everybody else the middle finger. Keep it up guys, I'm sure Shu will never go "Screw all this, I'm leaving!!!" or go on a rampage.


@Cosmic Eagle: Loved the C&C comparison. Gai has nothing on Kane though
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Old 2011-11-19, 00:28   Link #2462
djmaca
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Originally Posted by Guido View Post
I do understand now the other members' feelings regarding Shu's "no-no" stance about sacrificing anymore lives. Naivety doesn't work for miracles in an scenario of theirs where daily people are getting killed (in)discriminately by a corrupted, corporal-administrative, organization that has hold over the entire country.
We really can't expect him to understand that because he's pathetic and whimpy. But we also cannot blame him for being pathetic and whimpy because he's no soldier after all. Naivety isn't bad. Everyone is like that from time to time.

Which makes me wonder why people expect him to be more GAR? I don't think having super powers is reason enough to do things like taking up the role of some cliche shounen hero. If he were to be more badass he would need at least something like what Reiji experienced in Requiem for the Phantom.
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Old 2011-11-19, 01:07   Link #2463
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I think Kaioshin has it when he says that Yoshino is just writing around whatever cool thing he wants to happen each week. The details of the story are just there to set up cool scenes. And I don't mind, since I find the scenes and the personalities cool.

I disagree as usual with the idea that these are "shallow" characters just because we aren't handed tons of info about their backstories, or a shallow story because it isn't fully fleshed out. And I feel the emotion without it having to be blared all over the place. Nor do I need artificial tension.

This is not a popcorn show at all. It would be a total failure as a popcorn show, obviously. I think the fact that it is noitaminA is something that has to be remembered. Whatever it is doing (and I'm still not sure, lol), it is not a conventional shounen or mecha show at all.

But much as I am enjoying the show, I still am not impressed with Yoshino Hiroyuki as a writer. Give me Okada Mari any time, lol. Yoshino did Mai-HiME and My-Otome, neither of which I liked. He was closely involved in Code Geass, which I didn't like. He did Sora no Woto, which failed its cast, for me. And he did Dance in the Vampire Bund, which I loved, but mainly for the things that were not Yoshino's department.

The two shows he did which I have no problem with were Macross F and Denpateki na Kanojo, which was good, especially the first episode, and especially for the work of the VAs.

The staff member here with whom I am happy is, Araki Tetsurou (Death Note).
I think Mari Okada for Yoshino would end up being a bit of a lateral move really. From what I've seen of both of their works neither seems to care much for writing likeable and/or interesting male leads and both have a bit of a penchant for laying on the fan service and weird character interactions, often to the detriment of a story. Also neither is very creative when it comes to creating scenarios and tend to follow what I've come to call the light novel style of writing. Basically episodic fan favorites like the beach episode that show off all the girls.

The biggest change you'd probably get is that it would be significantly less crazy as would the nature of the pacing, but I just don't see the characters being any better. You'd need someone that is experience with writing good characters. I think Okouchi could easily fill that role, but sadly he seems to have very little influence on Guilty Crown and just seems to be in the staff list as a name to attract more viewers.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I'm not going to dump all over this show, because I do find it sort of enjoyable and I don't discount the importance of a series looking as great as this one does. But it's definitely held back by a lack of anything really original. If I was to use one word to describe the situations and characters, it would be "generic". It's like the beer that showed up in supermarkets in the 90's that just said "BEER" in black letters on an otherwise blank white can.

The result of all that is that I feel as if I'm watching a rerun, even when I'm watching a new episode. The show always does what you expect it to do and goes where you expect it to go. There's a comfortable familiarity to that, especially when it's competently executed, as this series is. But it also makes it impossible for me to feel anything for the characters or care too deeply about what happens to them. We don't really get any reason to feel or care, because the characters just react emotionally to whatever's happening - we never get any real background on who they are or how they got that way.
That's a reasonable assessment, though I personally would swap generic out for something more like "hollow".

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2011-11-19 at 01:25.
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Old 2011-11-19, 01:16   Link #2464
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
About the hate exhibited toward Shu, I think this quote from a certain Vampire Slayer series is quite appropriate:

But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.
from what story is this? it looks like I remember the lines but can't remember from where it is that I heard it before

Considering the funeral parlor a group of teenager which is around 17 below or around 17. I simply can't find it realistic for them to think like soldiers. Not caring to be sacrifice in episode 6 just to complete the mission. Unless they do a solid background story for it and despite all the EVIL thing GHQ shows. They really need to explain it to Shu to understand.
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Old 2011-11-19, 01:38   Link #2465
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Considering the funeral parlor a group of teenager which is around 17 below or around 17. I simply can't find it realistic for them to think like soldiers. Not caring to be sacrifice in episode 6 just to complete the mission. Unless they do a solid background story for it and despite all the EVIL thing GHQ shows. They really need to explain it to Shu to understand.
I don't think they're ALL teenagers, just the core group that we've been introduced.
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Old 2011-11-19, 03:08   Link #2466
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I wonder what will happen if Shuu try to pull out the void from himself or pull out more than one void at the same time.

IMO,the void pulled out from other people seems a bit random. Isn't this mean anime can just give a solution for each situation by just creating new random void with over the top ability?
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Old 2011-11-19, 03:21   Link #2467
Tiresias
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Isn't this mean anime can just give a solution for each situation by just creating new random void with over the top ability?
Very. The methodical way would be to grab and test the Void of each Funeral Parlor member, so they would have a proper inventory list. Sure, Gai apparently can see each and one of them, but what if he for some reason became unavailable? Or what if some redshirt got killed because hey, that's what redshirts are for, only for them to realize too late that a particularly important Void belonged to the now deceased redshirt, which means that that person should have been a guarded VIP?

But the writers apparently like asspulls, and having the capabilities of all Voids known to Shu (and the viewers) beforehand would lessen the dramatic surprise. And so every person holding a plot relevant void will conveniently be near Shu when the plot demands
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Old 2011-11-19, 03:24   Link #2468
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
from what story is this? it looks like I remember the lines but can't remember from where it is that I heard it before
Sounds like Buffy.
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Old 2011-11-19, 03:25   Link #2469
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Originally Posted by Soji View Post
Because I reviewing episode 6 more carefully, there are things that I found very interesting, especially to see him a second time, in order to better understand some of the scenes.

Shu and Gai scene ,Another Gai and Inori plan to manipulate Shu ?
I thought about this question while watching the episode and beacuse I already knowing what would happen , I must say this was another initiative from Inori.
you can clearly see that Gai was surprised that was Shu the one who heard his confession.
I have the impression that Gai give up to expect help from Shu (I could be wrong though).
One confirmation to this is at the end of this scene when he calls Shu a Fool (or similar).
The second confirmation is when Shu appear wiht the void combined (the destroy satellites).
And the final confirmation at the end of the episode when he asks Shu why he came back and Gai goes on to say that a sinner was enough.
In short I think Inori understood that the only way to resolve the situation Shu / Gai was that Shu hear Gai confession in her place and I would say that it work seeing the end of the episode and the ending of this episode.

For the mysterious girl I find it interesting that she intervened when Shu had his monologue if it was right that he was just looking and doing nothing.
That is, she herself asked him if he wanted to save everyone, if he wanted to save Gai.
Since we are on the speech I wonder if Shu has understand something thanks this.
I mean the way Shu talk to Gai when Gai asked about that void, it seemed to me that Shu had realized who the girl was or just me who thinks so?

Spoiler for Imm at the end of the ending:


For the Preview episode 7.

The I find very interesting what the prewiev show, one thing that I wonder is if Shu will tells his mother that he will live with some friends or find some kind of excuse.
Because I highly doubt that Shu will return to live in his old house.
After all, after this episode Shu is part of the "Undertaker" whic mean that he has to live with them. (afterall he can go from his place to their base every day or every time there is a mission. )
if he can go to school he can also sleep at home (probably with inori)
going from school to their base or from home to their base is not that different
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Old 2011-11-19, 06:39   Link #2470
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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post
The arguments about whether Guilty Crown is a good show or not are kind of funny. This show is big and dumb like a Michael Bay movie, which makes it both awesome and terrible at the same time. Or maybe that kinda makes it like Code Geass.
Pretty good way of describing it. I can't really tell whether or not it's a good show, but it keeps me entertained, and makes me want to watch the next episode to see what happens, and that's enough for me.

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Originally Posted by djmaca View Post
We really can't expect him to understand that because he's pathetic and whimpy. But we also cannot blame him for being pathetic and whimpy because he's no soldier after all. Naivety isn't bad. Everyone is like that from time to time.

Which makes me wonder why people expect him to be more GAR? I don't think having super powers is reason enough to do things like taking up the role of some cliche shounen hero. If he were to be more badass he would need at least something like what Reiji experienced in Requiem for the Phantom.
I also wholeheartedly agree with this standpoint. It always bothered me in movies, or shows when you see a character acting really cocky in like a typical death scenario, where there will be a showdown, but because the actor knows his character won't be dying, he's able to put on this really "badass" persona. And he acts that way only because he knows he'll live. But if we put it into real terms, if he has no idea whether or not he'll live or die, it changes the way the character should be portrayed. That they no longer think of themselves as invincible, and to me that's what Shu should be. Someone who could die at any wrong move, and be scared.
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Old 2011-11-19, 07:18   Link #2471
Soji
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Spoiler for space:


Ayase: We won't let you get to Inori-san so easily! Fufufufu....

Tsugumi: *in English* YOU SHARRU NOTA PASS!

Shu: ... ...

Inori: *looking at everyone* What is going on?

Ayase: Don't worry Inori-san, we'll protect you from that grabby boy!

Inori: "Grabby"? *looks at Shu* ... do you like to grab things, Shu?

Tsugumi: Be careful, Inori, he might look to grab more than your Void next time!

Ayase: *snickers* Oh yes, definitely!

Inori: ... *looks at Shu* ...

Shu: ... what...?

Inori: ...Shu no Ecchi...

Shu: NAN DE DAI YO!!?
Haha I can totally see your script play out in that imm.
The only thing that leaves me wondered is why Ayase should prevent Shu to become closer to Inori.
After all,that would play in her favor, at least that her and Tsugumi don't want him a their pet.

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Originally Posted by pinoscotto View Post
if he can go to school he can also sleep at home (probably with inori)
going from school to their base or from home to their base is not that different
True, but if he goin back to live at are home ,he woul be alaways alone .
Of course it can happen as you say, or that most of the week he is with the Undertaker and returns home only when needed. But I sincerely hope he go to live with them at least he won't be alone anymore.(especially now that he has solved his problem with Gai).

Edit:I thought a question and I want to see what you guys think of this.
Because of the age limit that is related to the void, and that we know the age of Gai, Ayase and Tsugumi I think is obvious that at least once Shu will extract a void from them .
Which brings me to the question I thought.
What kind of void you guys think Shu will extract from them?

For me.... Ayase =I do not know why but lately I think if Shu will take out a void from her would be something like Beowulf from dmc 3 (you know gauntlets and greaves).
Tsugumi = something like a absolute defense (I do not know why but I see this possible)or something that is related to her Hacker(skill/title).
Gai =I left for last because I have not the faintest idea what kind of void can be.

Now let's see what kind of void you think,afterall I'm certain that sooner or later we see them and it will be interesting to see who came closest to guessing.

Last edited by Soji; 2011-11-19 at 08:24.
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Old 2011-11-19, 08:59   Link #2472
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
KANE GAI LIVES!

And with that the mission to destroy GDI GHQ's Ion Cannon Leucocyte begins!

Well it seems that our Brother Gai is a more caring person than we thought....or is he? We shall see....

And so in trucks bearing the crimson emblem of the Brotherhood of Nod Funeral Parlour, the assault begins. Ranged against them, some really really incompetent security forces led by a psychopath piloting a mech.

What's that Special Agent Tanya Inori is here too? Must be the high-end nature of the mission. After surviving one orbital strike despite being in the center of the blast, another should be no issue right? So our Leader thinks as he prepares to show the world his Messianic abilities in downing GDI's GHQ's satellite.

But then the secret Tiberium based entity experiment of GDI GHQ awakens and drawing on the suppressed memories of our protag as well as his repressed sexuality (seriously...control your feelings dood) gets him to use her Tiberium Void at a far higher level than before, downing the satellite

This then leads to the question.....if she is Cocytus, What is our protag?

Find out Player as you advance to further missions for our glorious Brotherhood and Leader!
Shu is Hades... he rips "voids" out of people as if they were souls.

Inori is Cocytus... she'll awaken into Acheron. There are probably 4 others just as strong as her.


Albino kid at the end of the episode is probably another like Inori.

What is up with Gai? Is he really 17 or has gene spliced Inori's DNA into himself and looks young? Damn, he acts like an old man. Why would foreign government send a 17 year old kid military aid? Why is Gai's second in command around 30 years old?

I think Gai is actually 30-50 but due to taking blood from Inori he now appears to be 17 and that's why no one in GHQ recognizes him. How the hell does he know so much about the GHQ? We haven't been introduced to the mole in GHQ that feeds him info. He has intimate knowledge of everything, even their tactics... as if he designed them.
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Old 2011-11-19, 09:09   Link #2473
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mechalord@ Is does make sense...wait but if you have right does that mean that there is a mini-harem look for their beloved king?
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Old 2011-11-19, 09:34   Link #2474
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Man, people really should knock it off with the "Guilty Crown is just a rehash of series X" stuff. Yeah, we get it, the show isn't the most original one, but so far it has been quite entertaining.

Also, characterization needs time and with Guilty Crown, the writers have decided that the shared background of the three mains ( Shu, Inori, Gai ), which obviously is interconnected ( just look at the flashbacks from the end of episode one ) is one of the main mysteries of the series... expect that to be resolved at the mid of the series. Then characterization can move forward.
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Old 2011-11-19, 09:51   Link #2475
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Man, people really should knock it off with the "Guilty Crown is just a rehash of series X" stuff. Yeah, we get it, the show isn't the most original one, but so far it has been quite entertaining.
Nobody said anything like "Guilty Crown [is bad because it] is just a rehash of series X". I don't see no problem in making parallels.

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Also, characterization needs time and with Guilty Crown, the writers have decided that the shared background of the three mains ( Shu, Inori, Gai ), which obviously is interconnected ( just look at the flashbacks from the end of episode one ) is one of the main mysteries of the series... expect that to be resolved at the mid of the series. Then characterization can move forward.
Nobody is going about characterization "in the future" and things like "how bad it will be". If you want to discuss characterization after episode 13 then just ignore the thread and come back after episode 13. Currently the thread is about Ep1 to Ep7. Your carpet bombing argument that everyone is wrong because it will be better, is baseless given the current information. How do you know the reveal on the background won't just be the worse plot in anime history? How do you even know it will be this all mighty discussion-deus-ex-machina you're making it out to be? Nobody can say if it will be better or if it will just get worse, and nobody is trying to (or should bother outside of speculation).
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Old 2011-11-19, 09:54   Link #2476
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Shu is Hades... he rips "voids" out of people as if they were souls.

Inori is Cocytus... she'll awaken into Acheron. There are probably 4 others just as strong as her.


Albino kid at the end of the episode is probably another like Inori.

What is up with Gai? Is he really 17 or has gene spliced Inori's DNA into himself and looks young? Damn, he acts like an old man. Why would foreign government send a 17 year old kid military aid? Why is Gai's second in command around 30 years old?

I think Gai is actually 30-50 but due to taking blood from Inori he now appears to be 17 and that's why no one in GHQ recognizes him. How the hell does he know so much about the GHQ? We haven't been introduced to the mole in GHQ that feeds him info. He has intimate knowledge of everything, even their tactics... as if he designed them.
If he's 17.....that's quite screwed up. And he knows more than anyone else, won't be surprised if he used to be part of the programme
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Old 2011-11-19, 09:56   Link #2477
felix
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If he's 17.....that's quite screwed up. And he knows more than anyone else, won't be surprised if he used to be part of the programme
Or was programmed... sleeper agent and all that. Well probably not, but wouldn't be surprised for the show to use it.
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Old 2011-11-19, 10:54   Link #2478
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Shu is sometimes really behaving selfishly.
Don't get why he still didn't really accept that his life has changed forever.
He just keeps sulking all the time about pretty much anything..
Their little plan was not going well... they sure messed up.
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Old 2011-11-19, 11:18   Link #2479
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Nobody said anything like "Guilty Crown [is bad because it] is just a rehash of series X". I don't see no problem in making parallels.
Right, those constant comments in the vein of "OMG, GC is just like series X, WTF?" are positive comments.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Nobody is going about characterization "in the future" and things like "how bad it will be". If you want to discuss characterization after episode 13 then just ignore the thread and come back after episode 13. Currently the thread is about Ep1 to Ep7. Your carpet bombing argument that everyone is wrong because it will be better, is baseless given the current information. How do you know the reveal on the background won't just be the worse plot in anime history? How do you even know it will be this all mighty discussion-deus-ex-machina you're making it out to be? Nobody can say if it will be better or if it will just get worse, and nobody is trying to (or should bother outside of speculation).
I'm not saying it will be better or that it will be worse. I am saying that it is pretty damn clear that the characters are not moving forward very much because the mystery of their connection to each other is one of the main plot points the series has at the moment.

If the reveal will be well told or not is still in the stars. Neither is it clear, if holding the characters back in their development to build up tension to the enventual reveal will pay off in time or will result in the characterization being ultimately stunted.

But there are tons of replies in this thread or on Random Curiousity where people don't seem to see that... they just live in the now and want instant gratification. That tends to piss me off, because, IMO, it encourages one-couer shows with less complex stories.

The eye-candy is keeping people watching the show for now, but the writers do seem to have a deeper-layered plan than "Gai looks GAR, Inori looks sexy, Shu gets to touch her tits, let's blow things up!". But people here ignore that in favor of "lulz, GC is just like Evangelion/Code Geass/whatever even slightly similar show I saw in the past!" and "why aren't they making Shu resolve all his inner conflicts in episode 5 of 22?!?".
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Old 2011-11-19, 11:49   Link #2480
felix
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Right, those constant comments in the vein of "OMG, GC is just like series X, WTF?" are positive comments.
I'm calling FUD. Show me quotes.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
But there are tons of replies in this thread or on Random Curiousity where people don't seem to see that... they just live in the now and want instant gratification. That tends to piss me off, because, IMO, it encourages one-couer shows with less complex stories.

The eye-candy is keeping people watching the show for now, but the writers do seem to have a deeper-layered plan than "Gai looks GAR, Inori looks sexy, Shu gets to touch her tits, let's blow things up!". But people here ignore that in favor of "lulz, GC is just like Evangelion/Code Geass/whatever even slightly similar show I saw in the past!" and "why aren't they making Shu resolve all his inner conflicts in episode 5 of 22?!?".
There's nothing wrong with discussing the present and the past. It is however wrong to discuss purely in the realm of unfulfiled posibilities in the plot.

Anyway this is turning (if it hasn't been already) into a sort of chewbacca defense. And sadly I fear it's incuraging others to just follow in conga line because of how easy and sugary it is: "burn the sinners!" and all that. If you want to convert those of us that don't like the character then describe why you like him in hopes that maybe we'll agree and symphathize with your conviction. Don't just tell us we're not allowed not to like him because of some of your personal issues, and something or other to do with other sites.
Oh and I mean no disrespect, just trying to keep it as short and to the point as possible.
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