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Old 2012-02-03, 10:55   Link #3261
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
He's criticizing the scenario though. Regardless of whether he actually wrote it or not, the scenario for Persona 4 isn't that great (Well in anime form anyway). Maybe not exactly Pot Kettle Black but it's certainly ironic.
That's why I ask if the writers accomplished what they've set out to do, because good or bad is subject, you don't like the scenario of Persona 4 but I do and I'm very certain I'm not the only one and likewise for Guilty Crown's. So there's no way to judge base on people's taste.

But remember awhile back there was an article on the Guilty Crown writers and they talk about what they've planned for their story (or something along those lines), do you remember what people's reaction were after reading it?
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:11   Link #3262
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I'm concerned about it as a writer
I can understand, no even share that concern about the fact that many anime are being made based on very weak scripts and are finding success regardless. Doesn't help that it seems that there is a rising trend to take a certain popular writer and then have her write shows she has zero experience writing them just to attach her name if nothing more to said anime to increase the brand value, but I digress.

However, while this concern is valid, the sad truth is that this isn't something exclusive to anime at all. In any form of media you'll find ridiculously successful projects that run on scenarios that make you think ''How couldn't they write that!?'' (The Transformers Movies, the Inheritance Cycle etc.) so I think it's something that's simply has to be accepted.

On Guilty Crown ... well, I have to admit that again, I agree with him that the shows weak point is the writing, and to an extent the execution of it. The characters behave in ways that can only be described as stupid, the situations are often more than not contrived and don't fit into the logic of the show, there's little to no depth to the world or the cast, and the presentation of it all falls flat thanks to the wonderful effort of the director. It doesn't help that the show doesn't appear to be (or at the very least give the illusion that it is) well throughout from start to finish, instead looking like the staff is winging it and writing each episode week by week without any idea where they are going.

(That said, I don't really mind any of that. I had a feeling that it was going to end up like this from the start, so it all falls into my original expectations of a dumb but fun anime.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Anyway I've been thinking of an objective way to approach this discussion, And I've decided on this- Have the writers of [Guilty Crown] achieved what they've set out to do?
If we go by the interview they gave? Then no, no they have not achieved their goal at all, if anything so far, they have failed miserably.
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
And please for goodness sake, don't bring up the Animation quality, that has nothing to do with the script
Yeah, I agree. Just because the animators for the Persona anime were tricked doesn't really have a bearing on the actual quality of the writing.
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Well he's not exactly wrong but...
Well, I haven't actually seen that show past episode 4 so I don't if I can comment on that but is it really that bad?
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:30   Link #3263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Why? Persona 4 script accomplished what it set out to do, which is more than what I can say for Guilty Crown.



That's not how it works either. You can't take a story from one media and just paste it in another, you have to make changes and decide what to include and what to leave out, what to change and what to keep the same.
And that exactly what destroyed Tsukihime.....
(Though they did good job with P4 since they didn't change many things.)
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:31   Link #3264
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Well, I haven't actually seen that show past episode 4 so I don't if I can comment on that but is it really that bad?
I may pick it up later, but script-wise from where I left off, it's pretty rushed. The social links in Persona 4 are not done very well and it looks too much like a game adaptation rather than an anime in the script. Aside from that though, the thing that hurts Persona 4 the most is its production design (and that god-annoying editing). This wouldn't be a bad thing if the script was something like Future Diary's (which also has poor production quality). Unfortunately, it's not.
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Old 2012-02-03, 13:12   Link #3265
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The funny thing about GC is, people love to complain about and even ridicule it. But very few of them seem to stop watching it.
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Old 2012-02-03, 13:37   Link #3266
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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
I may pick it up later, but script-wise from where I left off, it's pretty rushed. The social links in Persona 4 are not done very well and it looks too much like a game adaptation rather than an anime in the script.
I get what your saying, and I think I can see why it'd be considered bad, but honestly, unless the writing in the adaption fails to the point where it becomes an incomprehensible mess of ''best-of'' select scenes from the game i.e. the anime is nothing more than a half-hour long commercial for the game, it would at least achieve more than what GC had so far.
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The funny thing about GC is, people love to complain about and even ridicule it. But very few of them seem to stop watching it.
I don't like to complain about Guilty Crown. The thing is, there is a lot of things to like about the show. The artwork, animation, design, backgrounds and the general visual presentation (excluding the camera work) is very beautiful, and I don't anyone would argue that this is a very great looking show. The music, while might not be appropriately used at times, is still very strong and is very memorable. And of course, the show does know how it can present fights in a pretty fun way. All of that is more than enough reason to continue watching the show, even liking and supporting it.

The thing is, when it comes down to the writing, I can't in all honesty say that I think it matches up to the rest of the show, because it just simply doesn't. Even if I ignore what the staff had in mind for their goal for this anime, the show itself doesn't support, justify or even at times adhere to it's own logic. How can anyone say it's good then?
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Old 2012-02-03, 14:21   Link #3267
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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
And as many have pointed out, Persona 4 is still selling more, so who gives a crap?
Scriptwriters have their own aspirations beyond adaptation work (which pays the bills but may not be creatively fulfilling). To those who want to create their own series, it's probably frustrating to see the industry stars succeed on half-hearted writing.

After all, entertainment industries reward commercial success more than quality. If someone's original show can sell 10k copies per volume, you can bet that he'll get more offers to write original series (which means fewer opportunities for other writers), even if the merits of his work are debatable.

Quote:
the thing that hurts Persona 4 the most is its production design
AIC's strategy is certainly atypical. When schedules are tight, episodes are often characterized by a mix of nicely animated shots and some poorly animated/incorrectly drawn ones, so there are huge inconsistencies in quality (to some extent, we see this in Guilty Crown). The worst bits stick out like a sore thumb, and changes in drawing style are immediately noticeable.

On Persona, visuals are janky (movement, eyes, faces, body proportions) but uniformly so, and the truly awful parts blend in relatively well. I suspect that AIC's method was to bully key animators into rushing work so that animation directors could provide a consistent look in time. Generally, the animation directors are the ones who go through hell at the last minute, and they may not always have time to stabilize the art.

Whatever the case, the uniformity seems to have paid off, and I'm surprised by the number of people who don't notice the poor quality of the work.
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Old 2012-02-03, 14:37   Link #3268
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I haven't seen Persona 4 or played the game so I can't comment about the merits of that, at all.

That said, I can completely see the scenario construction being particularly flawed, and usually I'm left feeling like they could've done much better with their ideas than they were able to do.

I'll use an example from ep 15 to show what I mean, b/c it's fresh in my memory and (imho) about as close to an unambiguous "missed opportunity" as you're going to find on something as subjective as "good writing". Here goes:

Spoiler for ep 15 improvements:


Overall, though, the single biggest mistake is having Shuu start the show as a nearly-friendless loser. It's a mistake because it means his character has to change too much for the writers to handle well in the space they have to work with: first he has to get friends and so on, then he has to lose those friends. If Shuu'd started out as a popular guy with Hare the girl he's been stringing along for years as his not-quite-girlfriend it would've been much easier on the writers.

Disclaimer: I like Guilty Crown, especially lately. I think it's nowhere near as good as it could've been with better writing, but it's far from terrible. Overall I think if it'd had the guts to go full grimdark from the beginning it would've turned out pretty well even if nothing else was that different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Scriptwriters have their own aspirations beyond adaptation work (which pays the bills but may not be creatively fulfilling). To those who want to create their own series, it's probably frustrating to see the industry stars succeed on half-hearted writing.
It's either this or just being really frustrated at seeing missed chances. A lot of bad shows are bad mostly because the ideas aren't that good. GC seems to be bad mostly due to large numbers of writing / editing / scenario-planning mistakes, which is a much more unusual way to be bad, and could be more than a little bit aggravating.

Last edited by miketyson; 2012-02-03 at 14:42. Reason: added reply
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Old 2012-02-03, 19:58   Link #3269
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GC obviously has some glaring problems in its writing but nonetheless it's still a "dumb fun show" with gorgeous visuals and audio. It's the equivalent of a Hollywood action flick to me in that I am entertained, but it isn't amazing or anything. I swear a lot of people are tsundere over this series because despite all the hate, not many people seem to have dropped the show. Thankfully, the second half of the series is actually looking pretty good with the main criticism (Shu) starting to shape up into a character (albeit slowly).

Persona 4 on the other hand is just bad. There seems to be this notion amongst anime fans (not just AS, but on other sites like MAL too) that popular, source-material faithful adaptations = good. I call bollocks on that. In my opinion an anime is supposed to improve on the original source material in some way and just blindly copying it doesn't automatically make it good. In Persona 4's case, not only is it trying to be blindly faithful, it's got terrible pacing issues (too much time wastage on side character arcs) and the fact that Seiji Kishi is directing is making the series more immature and fratboy than I remember the original game being. I mean cmon, some of the jokes and fanservice (execution of the jokes and service) are so lame and are of the type that is everywhere on anime - tasteless and cliche. GC's in comparison is pretty mild. Not to mention, the anime looks like ass and despite having an awesome soundtrack (Shoji Meguro) it's even more misused than Sawano's in GC.

Also I have no idea why the P4's script writer is complaining about GC selling 10k, when P4 sold about 4 times as that. Makes no sense to me.
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Old 2012-02-03, 22:14   Link #3270
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
GC obviously has some glaring problems in its writing but nonetheless it's still a "dumb fun show" with gorgeous visuals and audio. It's the equivalent of a Hollywood action flick to me in that I am entertained, but it isn't amazing or anything. I swear a lot of people are tsundere over this series because despite all the hate, not many people seem to have dropped the show. Thankfully, the second half of the series is actually looking pretty good with the main criticism (Shu) starting to shape up into a character (albeit slowly).
I know. I'm sorry. But I just have to see this show all the way through. While it's not going in my top 10 worst anime I've seen like I originally thought it would, it's not a show I'll watch again (unless it's for a riffing contest or something). Though if Crispin Freeman is voicing one of the characters in a dub of this show, then maybe I'll be intrigued

Honestly though, I didn't want to see the Hollywood action flick move into anime. At least not until musicals do (Nerima Daikon doesn't count). Plus, I've never seen a Hollywood action film that feels like no passion was put into it like this one (except for maybe Transformers). But I've talked about that enough. And I've talked enough about Shu and his mood changes as well.
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Old 2012-02-03, 22:33   Link #3271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Anyway I've been thinking of an objective way to approach this discussion, And I've decided on this- Have the writers of [Guilty Crown] achieved what they've set out to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
If we go by the interview they gave? Then no, no they have not achieved their goal at all, if anything so far, they have failed miserably.
Question then (and not just to the people I've quoted).

What exactly are (any of) you assuming the creators set out to do in Guilty Crown?
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Old 2012-02-03, 22:43   Link #3272
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My view on P4's Script Writer criticizing the scenario of Guilty Crown is pretty similar to DemiSoda's. If Gen Urobuchi had made the same criticism, I'd find it much less ironic and a bit easier to take. But as is...


I don't think that P4: The Animation's writing is atrociously bad, but from what I saw of it (4 or 5 episodes), it's certainly nothing to write home about. It was very formulaic, and the comedy was decidedly hit-and-miss with me. It also gave me the feeling of adhering too closely to the original game, and not factoring in medium congruency enough (i.e. making it flow well as an anime). Putting this altogether, I'm tempted to say that P4: The Animation has lazy writing.

And really, that's the worse I would say about Guilty Crown's writing. Guilty Crown's writing doesn't strike me as downright horrible, but simply pretty slapdash in its first half. It makes me think of American comic book writing when the writers are on a really tight schedule and it shows (often during big crossover events). So while it's messy, it did have the odd dash of neat creativity or brilliance to it.

Also, I think that Guilty Crown's writing quality has really shaped up since the start of the second half, with the most recent episode being a highlight of sorts. Some contrivances of the "Rambo somehow survives without a scratch after being shot at by 100 gunmen" variety are still there, but the dialogue is getting crisper, the characters are getting more fun and intriguing, and the plot is becoming a bit more solid and interesting.

To borrow a phrase from DemiSoda, I'd say that Guilty Crown has been "legit good" during its second half (which is to say a notch or more above "dumb fun" or "guilty pleasure"). It's certainly not "Steins;Gate/Madoka Magica" good, but still solidly good. I'd put it on par with Mai HiME right now.


But hey, this is all just opinions of course.
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Old 2012-02-03, 23:36   Link #3273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Question then (and not just to the people I've quoted).

What exactly are (any of) you assuming the creators set out to do in Guilty Crown?
Brilliant question, good sir. I assume they wanted to make a Code Geass spiritual successor that'll sell.

Welp, they're getting there alright.

Honestly tho, there's no way we can have an objective discussion with a third of the series left to go, but IMO, at least for the first half of the series, the writers themselves appeared to have no clue where they were going with the plot
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Old 2012-02-04, 01:05   Link #3274
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Question then (and not just to the people I've quoted).

What exactly are (any of) you assuming the creators set out to do in Guilty Crown?
It's hard to say, but I know two things that the creators definitely wanted: a cutting-edge anime and a natural-flowing story. I don't think the anime delivered in either of them. The second one in particular is something I wanted, but no, I get Autopilot: The Anime. And while the anime has gotten better, it still feels like Autopilot: The Anime.

Of course, I could also do without Ayase's cheap-ass wheelchair, Inori's non-existence, or Souta's existence. But that third one is a nitpick.
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Old 2012-02-04, 05:03   Link #3275
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Spoiler for Ep 15:

Many said that Shuu became much more like Lelouch. Instead, I thought him being closer
to Light Yagami of Death Note (I think they were related because the animes shared
the same director.)
Lelouch is having a brain and more determined, and, more importantly, have brains and opinions
around him all that time. In opposite, Shuu (just like Light) wasn't surrounded
by different viewpoints; nearly all of Shuu's fellows were on the same highway as Yahiro
(with little differences), Shota has strong opposition but he wasn't that close to Shuu,
unfortunately.

Actually I always think that the anime director's impression to Light was seriously twisted,
that caused Light to be treatment that way in the anime - he turned to be a virtually clueless,
mean, pathetic man, that is very different from his manga counterpart (which I think is a good man
in overall.)

I also suspected that the director hates women, or at least has a hatred to the female characters
in the show. Looking closer and I found that none of the women in the shows (DN and GC)
were good at all; there ended up having no even half-decent women (like, let's say Shakti
in Victory Gundam), at least around the main character. Shuu and Light (anime) became
much worse partly because of the lacking of good opinions, but only bad opinions from his surrounding,
esp. the women.
The good thing is that, in that way, the women in the shows were actually more important
than they looked, they were not useless decorations.

Last edited by wm4; 2012-02-04 at 05:54.
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Old 2012-02-04, 09:26   Link #3276
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
What exactly are (any of) you assuming the creators set out to do in Guilty Crown?
I think they wanted to tell a parable about the importance of friendship; first Shuu builds his way up from nothing as he starts making some real friends, then he tears himself back down by driving them all away again. To make this work better his superpower literally "draws on his friends", and to make it more interesting the show weaves in some garden-variety Japanese political themes.
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Old 2012-02-05, 04:15   Link #3277
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@com_gwp and Flawnalyst

I'll leave aside the CG comparisons, since I happen to disagree with most people on that front.

But I have to wonder if any of us actually knows what they were trying to do?

Personally, I've been watching this for entertainment, and I've certainly rolled my eyes at how conveniently certain voids are revealed in certain episodes (e.g. Tsugumi's in #14). But at the same time, I've been puzzled over many of the complaints I've seen here, because I see development, foreshadowing etc etc that no one talks about (I don't either, because I really can't spare the time).

I've also gone back over the magazine scans that have been shared in this thread...and then it became obvious that most people here have no idea what Guilty Crown is supposed to be about.

The key word that comes up in all the articles and interviews?

'Human relationships' (人間関係)

In other words,
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
I think they wanted to tell a parable about the importance of friendship; first Shuu builds his way up from nothing as he starts making some real friends, then he tears himself back down by driving them all away again. To make this work better his superpower literally "draws on his friends", and to make it more interesting the show weaves in some garden-variety Japanese political themes.
is the closest I've seen any English-speaking viewers come to what the creators are driving at (though, miketyson, I think there are deeper layers that we have to consider with regards to this theme).

Even the complaints that several people have voiced, along the lines of how the relationships are shallow etc? If you read that interview again, all those complaints suggest to me that they actually did succeed in depicting what they said they would - what we are seeing now, is how those shallow relationships evolve and, hopefully, deepen.

And this may be controversial...but I do think they have a point when they suggest that you really have to understand modern Japan in order to understand what they are driving at. And I'm not sure most people here do - I certainly wouldn't have, had I not done some relevant uni courses over the past year.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-02-05 at 06:45.
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Old 2012-02-05, 10:11   Link #3278
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But at the same time, I've been puzzled over many of the complaints I've seen here, because I see development, foreshadowing etc etc that no one talks about (I don't either, because I really can't spare the time).
I'm about the same, this is a show I've largely resigned from discussing beyond brief episode comments. I think there's been lots of development and foreshadowing, but the sloppy writing really hurts it: it's subtle, and can be hard to distinguish from mere inconsistency.

I also agree there's more to it than what was in my short comment, but time is pressing and I want to see how it plays out a bit more. In any case Guilty Crown has proven to be a very "Japanese" work, and its "Japaneseness" goes well past the obvious stuff like mechs and high school students in school uniforms.
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Old 2012-02-05, 11:35   Link #3279
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@karice67 I'm aware of cultural differences and stuff like that. I don't think that's really an excuse for the relationships in this show though, especially when it comes to the shallow relationships evolving. I haven't seen them evolve once (or done in a way that's convincing). And if the relationships were meant to be shallow, the show doesn't seem to be taking advantage of it. And what culture is there when you can just accept a relationship like Shu's and Inori's, which is not so much shallow, as nonexistent? You want to see a show that takes advantage of the relationships being shallow? Watch Durarara.

With that said, no matter what's being intended, it doesn't change the fact that the plot seems to be made up as it goes and I'm always aware a writer is controlling the story. And there is no way that the writers intended for the second part to happen.

Regarding the foreshadowing, yes it's there. I don't think it's very good foreshadowing though. But that's another story.
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Old 2012-02-05, 15:48   Link #3280
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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
I'm about the same, this is a show I've largely resigned from discussing beyond brief episode comments. I think there's been lots of development and foreshadowing, but the sloppy writing really hurts it: it's subtle, and can be hard to distinguish from mere inconsistency.
Not that I think the writing is 'brilliant', but what do you mean by 'sloppy writing'?

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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
@karice67 I'm aware of cultural differences and stuff like that.*snip*
Wrong assumption. I'm not talking about cultural differences, but rather about politics.

That's where the link to Ghost in the Shell (SAC) lies, in the socio-political context - foreign interference, lack of sovereignty etc etc. Most Western anime viewers don't seem to be aware of this, or if they are, only from the Western (predominantly American perspective). Of course, given what I know of Japanese youth, I'm not sure they are aware of it either.

And Inori and Shu's relationship being non-existent? Can you explain? Because whilst I don't think it's particularly deep, I don't see it as 'non-existent'.
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