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Old 2011-10-14, 13:50   Link #601
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What you and Skyfall are complaining about was right there in the PV for the show. The show's promotional material was quite open about how it was not hardcore realistic. This really shouldn't be an issue, imo. I have to be frank: It's a bit like someone going into Higurashi and saying "What's with all this gore all of a sudden?!".
I don't want to speak for Skyfall since he could probably articulate that certain position better than I could, but I only quoted the segment mainly about Shu and how I just kind of felt he hurt the episode overall with his presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Legend of the Galactic Heroes can be pretty black and white, and at times simplistic, in its themes against war in general.

It's still widely regarded as one of the finest anime shows of all-time.
Different stories benefit form different things, but while LoGH never pretended to be ultra complicated, the whole series was in the grey. There wasn't exactly a right or wrong ideology in it. LOGH was definitely not simply a black and white story.

In any case, LoGH is hardly comparable to this show...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's not exactly accurate, as I pointed out before with my points pertaining to the GHQ Supreme Commander.
I didn't get the same impression. It came off as a shady politician trying to cover his own ass. We'll just have to see.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why? You don't think there's ever been rather "black" oppressive regimes in human history?
Not sure how this is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Frankly, I strongly disagree with you on this point. I greatly prefer this to something that glorifies moral ambiguity to the point that there's no character worth rooting for, imo.
To me it's like you got a neat and complicated setting, but then you use the setting for simplistic purposes. The setting has potential for something really big, bold even, but it takes a more simple route with its story telling, and especially its main character.

I enjoy more simplistic stories all the time, but like I said before, different stories need different things. I just kind of feel that this one wouldn't benefit from being so black and white personally.
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Old 2011-10-14, 13:52   Link #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
True but only in developing coutries.
There were well-developed countries throughout history that had highly oppressive regimes.

No, this is not just a second/third world phenomena.

Also, a severe national catastrophe (as we see in Guilty Crown) could believably change a lot of things. In fact, it could "undevelop" a country, in a sense.


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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post

Not sure how this is relevant.
If an anime is trying to convey certain points or themes pertaining to what leads to oppressive regimes, why they are often supported, how best to combat them, etc..., etc... then I see possible validity in making your fictional oppressive regime reflective of those seen in recent real world history (i.e. last hundred years or so).

I personally think that Orwell's 1984 was a fantastic literary work that explores the possible causes of, and problems arising from, oppressive regimes. However, that book also painted in bold strokes, often leaving little ambiguity.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:05   Link #603
felix
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Hmm... is this anime an allegory of the current state of affairs or fears of countries being forcefully taken over and "globalized" though debt or some other excuse.

Well, that aside, quality wise it was good. Though this whole girl=key theme is kind of boring, and I wasn't really seing any signs of this being any exception.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:09   Link #604
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Hmm... is this anime an allegory of the current state of affairs or fears of countries being forcefully taken over and "globalized" though debt or some other excuse.
That's an interesting observation. I like how there's several countries all involved here, and not the US alone, say.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:13   Link #605
Haak
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There were well-developed countries throughout history that had highly oppressive regimes.

No, this is not just a second/third world phenomena.
That was just really bad wording. What I'm trying to say is, if you consider the current political situations we have these days, it's far more ambiguous and I think it's thanks to technology and media which has introduced and created more diverse opinions and made propaganda a bit harder. There's also the fact when Shu said they had help from foreign countries we immediately understood that to mean America developed Western countries and all those have some sort of democratic system now so there's always going to be some dissenting opinions in a government (at least the ones we can only assume are currently in control of Japan), and those politicians can always make their voices heard so there's always going to be objection in the public as well(It can also work the other way round). Plus there's the factor of the media and news and economics (which is almost always a non-issue in war anime =/). It's just that I think something major would have to change for developed countries to be that dickish. Of course it's only been the first episode and it's more than possible that there is a good reason for it which is why I said previously (but probably should have said so now) that we shouldn't be jumping to any conclusions just yet on whether it's all black and white.

(Btw, I'm personally not really all that bothered about it being black and white but I do think an attempt to make things a lot more morally ambiguous on both sides would be a big bonus)
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:13   Link #606
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Originally Posted by Inori X Horizon View Post
Now my speculations
But first... please forgive me if my english grammar is really bad. English is not my native language, but i'm still learning

Spoiler for Speculations:
Lol, you just retyped my post from earlier, the only difference being that I believe the virus was an accident from the experiment they were doing on the Void Genom.

Also not sure about the mother as the designs are very similar but it's just such a common design.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:19   Link #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
What I'm trying to say is, if you consider the current political situations we have these days, it's far more ambiguous and I think it's thanks to technology and media which has introduced and created more diverse opinions and made propaganda a bit harder. There's also the fact when Shu said they had help from foreign countries we immediately understood that to mean America developed Western countries and all those have some sort of democratic system now so there's always going to be some dissenting opinions in a government (at least the ones we can only assume are currently in control of Japan), and those politicians can always make their voices heard so there's always going to be objection in the public as well(It can also work the other way round).
Those are very fair points on your part. This is why I'm admittedly hoping that there's something more to the GHQ Supreme Commander not being told about the genome.

I like the idea of a Black Ops organization that gets a real foothold of power within the broader GHQ, and does stuff on the sly (or under false pretexts) that, as you alluded to, the vast majority of people living in modern 1st World countries would not stand for.

Yes, in fairness, there is the potential here for the anime to fail to reflect modern real world geopolitics well, and at the moment I like how this anime also has the potential to be very topical when it comes to real world geopolitics.


Quote:

Plus there's the factor of the media and news and economics (which is almost always a non-issue in war anime =/).
True.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:19   Link #608
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What you and Skyfall are complaining about was right there in the PV for the show. The show's promotional material was quite open about how it was not hardcore realistic. This really shouldn't be an issue, imo. I have to be frank: It's a bit like someone going into Higurashi and saying "What's with all this gore all of a sudden?!".
It being in the PV doesn't have a whole lot to do with how the show itself handles said elements though. The fact the story was going go have fantasy elements was a foregone conclusion, but my gripe is with the fact that the way these elements were presented felt internally inconsistent with how the show had presented itself up to the final minute.

Rather than a natural buildup upon the rest of the episode it came like a jarring turn, a sudden shift in atmosphere and seriousness that basically shattered the mood that was being built up to that point. Obviously, It didn't feel like a turn for the better. The fantasy elements themselves aren't the issue, it's the way they were brought in to the story and the effect they had on the overall composition that is questionable. For a universe supposed to accommodate fantasy elements to this degree (slashing up military vehicles with a sword you pulled from someone's chest), there was a distinct lack of setting up these accommodations. Hence why the final part was inconsistent with what the episode was doing previously, and if I have to compare, I found the former part distinctly more impressive than the finale, though that may well be me.

Granted, Guilty Crown may well be going for an overall over-the-top presentation that focuses on dramatic effect and the rule of cool first and foremost, and gritty realism may well be a fluke that the first ep just happened to delivered up to the point where the show revealed it's real colors. I'm fine with that, and my expectations will change accordingly, but it still felt like being led by the nose, and the shift in tone was anything but gracefully done.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:25   Link #609
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Originally Posted by Funkatronic View Post
You mean the fact that it doesn't explain anything to stay mysterious? To early to judge that
Not just that - everything about it, just about. People have been talking about an E7 vibe but even before I saw that, I was struck by how the themes and the tone seem so BONES-y. You've got the angsty fabulous teen male lead who gets superpowered. You've got the ultra-fab anti-hero rebel leader, the alluring and mysterious waif of a girl as a siren song to urge the hero on. Plus, despite the amazing visuals it has that late 90's feel to it that so many BONES series seem to have.

Note - this is not a criticism, as I like BONES (though they have been in a slump). It's also interesting that Araki-sensei also directed the eps of Aoi Bungaku that adapted the story by the author of UN-GO, which is the BONES series in NoitaminA this season.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:26   Link #610
Dann of Thursday
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
@Dann

I did get a small Eureka Seven vibe as well, but I think that had to do with how the show felt like it was made by BONES than anything. That and I think Shuu's attempt to change his self by saving Inori did bare a slight resemblance to how Renton's decision to fly at the end of the first episode, but I think that might be stretching it a bit.
This does really feel a bit like a BONES show aside from the mechs, which definitely are Production I.G. Yeah some of that felt familiar as well.


It's actually sort of odd how the show could have worked without the Void abilities, despite the fact that I actually think it's a pretty interesting concept. Just have to see how everything develops with that along with all the other aspects.

Next episode looks like it will give us a better look at the GHQ so we can hopefully see if there is more to them than what we saw here. Same with Undertaker and its members.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:31   Link #611
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
It being in the PV doesn't have a whole lot to do with how the show itself handles said elements though. The fact the story was going go have fantasy elements was a foregone conclusion, but my gripe is with the fact that the way these elements were presented felt internally inconsistent with how the show had presented itself up to the final minute.

Rather than a natural buildup upon the rest of the episode it came like a jarring turn, a sudden shift in atmosphere and seriousness...
Shift in atmosphere, probably, but I never felt that this undermined the seriousness of the episode.


Quote:
Granted, Guilty Crown may well be going for an overall over-the-top presentation that focuses on dramatic effect and the rule of cool first and foremost,
Agreed, and I don't think that's entirely incompatible with being realistic in a general sense.

There is what is called magical realism, and thus far, I think Guilty Crown abides by it pretty well.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:42   Link #612
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Unlike a lot of you, I'm coming into this pretty much blind (always do - no expectations). Only thing I knew from this was that it was being compared to Code Geass (thus Shu gaining his power was of very little surprise to me - certainly didn't expect it to come out in that manner though).

I'll start with the OST and visuals - wow. Someone pulled out all the stops with this - only think Hanasaku Iroha has looked better (though of course, GC is brown grey industrial environment compared to HanaIro's lush colours, so that's no surprise).

Shu Ouma...well, he reminds me of a combination of Narumi Fushijima of Kami-sama no Memo-chou (looks somewhat, being thrust into a situation he has next to no understanding of and his nervous initial persona) and Lelouch Lamperouge (morality - he knows what he wants for his country, at least, even if he felt he couldn't act upon those thoughts). Looking at it, now that he has the chance to change things with the help of Inori, I feel he will grow in confidence in leaps and bounds.

As for the episode itself, we have the premise (the Apocalypse Virus and subsequent Martial Law) and a notion, according to people here, that the GHQ are 'evil' - I don't see that at all. Sure, they're the antagonists in the eyes of Shu and the "Undertakers", but evil isn't the word I'd use.

Not sure I fully understand what the Void Genome was meant to be and what the GHQ are trying to do (aside from crush the resistance, naturally) - but given that we're one episode in, that's not entirely a surprise.

I'm in for the long haul with this.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:45   Link #613
Jarmel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Not just that - everything about it, just about. People have been talking about an E7 vibe but even before I saw that, I was struck by how the themes and the tone seem so BONES-y. You've got the angsty fabulous teen male lead who gets superpowered. You've got the ultra-fab anti-hero rebel leader, the alluring and mysterious waif of a girl as a siren song to urge the hero on. Plus, despite the amazing visuals it has that late 90's feel to it that so many BONES series seem to have.

Note - this is not a criticism, as I like BONES (though they have been in a slump). It's also interesting that Araki-sensei also directed the eps of Aoi Bungaku that adapted the story by the author of UN-GO, which is the BONES series in NoitaminA this season.
Yep I noted that as well. The main character reminded me of Renton alot and Inori of Eureka. They have to tag team to pull out a superweapon/ala E7. If the backstory shows they know each other then that's another connection to E7.

The production values are also what I would expect of a Bones show. Which is interesting when you compare it to Un-Go.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:49   Link #614
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So I just got to see the next episode preview today and it doesn't look like this show is going to be letting up on any front, which seems like it'll have both entertaining but also very very silly. Next episode it looks like they'll be parading Cat Ears around (quite literally since she's doing pirouettes and even seems to have butt jiggle ) and it looks like the evil commander dude is about to go bat shit crazy judging by his facial expression. Not sure what to expect.

Well in any case I'm kind of re-tempering my expectations from gritty I.G inspired political/military drama with sci-fi/fantasy elements (which is what I got when i first watched to the trailer) to something a little more like Super Robot Wars and popcorn entertainment thrill ride.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:59   Link #615
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Ha! This show isn't realistic in the slightest. Even Horizon is more realistic then this one. This show even fails at mundane acts of realism; just take for example her blood, there's so many holes with how that was presented—realistically she should be dead, a walking blood generator or otherwise has some kind of special blood that has no coagulation properties.

You then have this notion of "special squad with license to kill civilians" (and apparently they're the only ones, so there's very little political backing for the plot here). You then have the "they are military but just happen to follow the orders from a egghead with out going though the ranks". Can't wait for what load of crap explains all of that.

That super tower thing. They got the distance view kind of right; but otherwise it looks all pretty wrong to me. It's nice that while aparently millions are dieing or what not and there's a war, and-and everyone is more or less dirt poor, the administration goes like "OH OH I know what we need! Huge ass sky dome! right there smack in the middle of Crapburg where everyone is tacking their pet-tanks for a stroll"

To be honest, I don't quite like all the "realism" it has. It's like they just stick various cheap "future ideas" together into an even cheaper "future world". That's just my own view of their writing strategy mind you. IMO, when making a future image of the world, you should put some uniqueness in it, or at least have everything fit together.

How the hell are the "rebels" so damn heavily armed anyway. You got half the city crawling with military personnel and these people can sneak in TANK-bots with out nobody noticing? Really!? You'd think the enemy would at least HEAR such a big ass clunker moving around long before they even come face to face with it.

The plot and setting is just so bad lammmeee.

The animation quality and character designs are kind of nice though; only thing really carrying it at this point for me. The problem with animation, after 1 or 2 episodes it's going to either hit or miss.
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Old 2011-10-14, 15:10   Link #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
As for the racism I don't think either of them were actually African american (or did you mean African-Japanese?). The guy in the white coat was just tanned and the second one that tried to rob Shu was actually Japanese.
Quoted for TRUTH. There are many tanned AND non-tanned Asian men and women who bare some characteristics that may or may not be reminiscent of features from darker-skinned races, and the Japanese are no exception. I personally know two girls at my university, one who is Chinese and one who is Korean, who both have hair that's as coarse, frizzy, and curly as a Latina/Black girl's could be (and they wear it natural because they think it's very pretty, which it is). I've also seen/known plenty of Asians with skin that's naturally pretty dark.
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Old 2011-10-14, 15:44   Link #617
creb
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Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
[B][U]
Come on guys! I've already got crazy theories like how the girl in the flashback is Shu's sister. How Inori's not human and is actually a clone (going with the cellular terms they're already throwing out in the episode) so she doesn't really feel anything and IS A COPY OF SHU'S DEAD IMOUTO. We have wonderful ideas like DNA based power from (IMAGINE THE FUJOSHI POTENTIAL, HE COULD BE PULLING WEAPONS OUT OF A GAI, c wut i did dere), and terms like genome and antibodies (maybe they might have MHC-peptide complexes and T cell activation etc. etc.; yeah I'm clearly going way out there).

The moment Shu first interact with London bridge falling down girl, he got those weird images that he himself don't even know about!! COULD IT BE THAT HE LOST HIS MEMORIESSSS? Maybe Gai somehow already knew him from beforeeee??? Where are the theory craftings?
Don't you know nobody likes to talk about that kind of stuff unless the show gets its own sub-forum? But, alright, let's go over his flashbacks, in sequence.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #1: Girl with Guilty Crown-like growths.:

Here we have a girl who could be related to Inori. Note the growths that seem very similar to what happens to Shu when he releases his power he gains from reaching into Inori's chest. Is it possible this is an early version of "Guilty Crown" that wasn't really ready to be used?

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #2: Boy (possibly Gai) covered in blood.:

Here's a boy covered in blood. We'll see him again in another flashback which will show it's definitely not Shu. My first guess is that it is Gai.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #3: Normal scene of girl from Scene #1.:

Here we have the girl from the first picture back. Looks fairly similar to Inori, and is doing the same cat's cradle pose. We'll see her cross by itself surrounded by red balls. Maybe blood, or possibly the red balls we saw associated with the Guilty Crown serum Shu had in that vial. Perhaps, as an Alpha version of Guilty Crown, it was accidentally discharged and things went kaboom.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #4: Again, girl with Guilty Crown-like growths on body.:

Here she is again. She seems more resigned to the growths on her body.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #5: Chief Scientist:

This is the chief scientist we saw in the present. Nothing really to say here. Obviously he's been working on Guilty Crown for some time. Maybe he's Shu's father?

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #6: "Start" and a date.:

Edit: Correction, it actually says December 23, 2028 (thanks Jarmel). The Apocalypse Virus outbreak hit Tokyo in 2029. Connection? Da da dum!

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #7: Normal shot of boy who was seen in #2 covered in blood.:

Here we have a normal shot of the boy we saw earlier covered in blood. Again, my first guess is this is Gai.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #8: Shu's fourth birthday.:

Finally, we have what is presumably Shu and his mother. If the candles are to be trusted, this is Shu's fourth birthday.

Spoiler for Present Scene related to Flashback #8:

Taking a step back from the flashbacks, and here we have the woman accompanying the chief scientist in the present. Looks a lot like Shu's mom (thanks stuopidget). There is the matter of seemingly different eyecolor, but that could just be a lighting issue.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #9: Young boy on bridge.:

Here we have a shot of a young boy with the bridge torn in half. Presumably the young boy is at fault. Could be Shu.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #10: Garbled numbers.:

No matter how much I tried, I could not get a clear frame on this number. It does not look like a date though. My guess is that is reads: 83456 P-16, which is completely meaningless to me.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #11: Possibly a number relating to a gene.:

Here we have a shot of one number. 6626. It's possible, due to the pseudoscience we've already seen relating to genetics, this number relates to the small nuclear ribonucleoprotein polypeptide A gene. If it does, I'm sure we'll eventually get a very sexed-up version of what a polypeptide normally does.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #12: Crash site with people in hazard suits.:

Here we have a shot of a crash of some sorts. Perhaps the early version of Guilty Crown was being transported on this vehicle (guessing it's a plane). Maybe this was the cause of all the other events we see in these flashbacks. Or even the cause of the Apocalypse Virus of 2029.

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #13: Mystery Boy:

Here is another young child. Presumably not Gai (assuming the boy in picture #2 is Gai, and this kid doesn't have the same scarf/collar on his shirt) or Shu (wrong hair color/style). No idea who this may be. Edit: Thanks to Jarmel, a possibale identity for this boy is
Spoiler for Hasn't been formally introduced by show, so possibly a spoiler for some:


We then had a bunch of numbers such as "287" flash. Gave up on trying to capture them all, so no images there. Possibly more genes?

Spoiler for Flashback Scene #14: Mystery Girl (possibly Inori).:

Finally, we have this young girl. Creepy smile, blue lights...but young enough that maybe this girl is Inori. Beats me.

We also had some repeat images from the first flashback. Not going to bother posting them twice.

So, the safe money is that Shu and Gai either knew each other as children or at least came into contact when this incident (possibly the outbreak of the Apocalypse Virus of 2029), that these flashbacks tease us about occurred. It would also explain why Gai called Shu by name when they first meet in the present. If we're going to go this far, then it's probably safe to assume Shu has met Inori in the past as well. Yes, amnesiac characters are a tired cliche, but so what?

Last edited by creb; 2011-10-16 at 17:48.
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Old 2011-10-14, 15:47   Link #618
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
So I just got to see the next episode preview today and it doesn't look like this show is going to be letting up on any front, which seems like it'll have both entertaining but also very very silly. Next episode it looks like they'll be parading Cat Ears around (quite literally since she's doing pirouettes and even seems to have butt jiggle ) and it looks like the evil commander dude is about to go bat shit crazy judging by his facial expression. Not sure what to expect.

Well in any case I'm kind of re-tempering my expectations from gritty I.G inspired political/military drama with sci-fi/fantasy elements (which is what I got when i first watched to the trailer) to something a little more like Super Robot Wars and popcorn entertainment thrill ride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
@Triple_R

Ha! This show isn't realistic in the slightest. Even Horizon is more realistic then this one. This show even fails at mundane acts of realism; just take for example her blood, there's so many holes with how that was presented—realistically she should be dead, a walking blood generator or otherwise has some kind of special blood that has no coagulation properties.

You then have this notion of "special squad with license to kill civilians" (and apparently they're the only ones, so there's very little political backing for the plot here). You then have the "they are military but just happen to follow the orders from a egghead with out going though the ranks". Can't wait for what load of crap explains all of that.

That super tower thing. They got the distance view kind of right; but otherwise it looks all pretty wrong to me. It's nice that while aparently millions are dieing or what not and there's a war, and-and everyone is more or less dirt poor, the administration goes like "OH OH I know what we need! Huge ass sky dome! right there smack in the middle of Crapburg where everyone is tacking their pet-tanks for a stroll"

To be honest, I don't quite like all the "realism" it has. It's like they just stick various cheap "future ideas" together into an even cheaper "future world". That's just my own view of their writing strategy mind you. IMO, when making a future image of the world, you should put some uniqueness in it, or at least have everything fit together.

How the hell are the "rebels" so damn heavily armed anyway. You got half the city crawling with military personnel and these people can sneak in TANK-bots with out nobody noticing? Really!? You'd think the enemy would at least HEAR such a big ass clunker moving around long before they even come face to face with it.

The plot and setting is just so bad lammme
My hopes for that bonus have just officially been killed. Oh well, it's not like they were particularly high when I saw that massive sword...
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Old 2011-10-14, 16:02   Link #619
Zakoo
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By the way, side note of the anime but the manga (first chapter) can be read online on the official square enix website (magazine Shonen gangan or something like that)

Here
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Old 2011-10-14, 16:21   Link #620
Nerroth
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Speaking of side notes, has there been much in he way of news concerning the visual novel spinoff, Lost Christmas?
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