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Old 2011-10-25, 15:24   Link #1121
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hmm, but in itself that didn't really make it stand out. Many a sci-fi thriller will do that in the trailers.

When I saw the trailer, I saw ridiculous fanservicey outfits, cool looking stuff, and good action. It's what I got, for the most part, but I never had any expectations for the story-- that'd just be a bonus.
What about the characters though? I haven't seen any of the defenders counter the arguments that the characters are boring, making everything they're involved with boring as a result.
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Old 2011-10-25, 15:32   Link #1122
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There's nothing to defend against though. Simply saying something is boring is just an expression of an opinion, not.an actual argument.
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Old 2011-10-25, 16:09   Link #1123
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
About that trailer, when I saw it I noticed tanks, Gai doing that arm twisting maneuver that resembles real fighting techniques, and a lot of vaguely I.G like things that made me think semi-sophisticated political/sci-fi thriller ala Gundam or Eden of The East only with sassy character designs, so as I said early in the thread that more than anything is what has me a little down on the show right now.

Two episode in it's basically 3/4 of the way to the exact opposite of what I was expecting. Yeah, believe it it not I actually kind of expected this to be semi-realistic in how it presented itself so that was a source of disappointment. What worries me going forward is that the ham-fisted way in which the conflict and villains are portrayed is going to keep me from adapting to what the show actually is unless there's something else like great character conflict/relationships within Funeral Parlor or intriguing concepts and twists to keep things interesting. Right now as I keep saying I'm expecting more the latter than the former. I just don't think Yoshino has it in him to write good or complex characters drama without being as ham-fisted about it as possible, but on occasion he can hit you with interesting concepts and plot twists that are if nothing else at least amusing and entertaining.
Well, it appears we were expecting different things, but that's an interesting way to look at as such.

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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
What about the characters though? I haven't seen any of the defenders counter the arguments that the characters are boring, making everything they're involved with boring as a result.
I am not sure how that's relevant to my post, but while I agree that the characters aren't very interesting at the moment, there's nothing to say besides them but "wait and see"
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:09   Link #1124
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
that still doesn't make said jokes any less funny...



what, you serious? You haven't been to many harem-anime threads, have you?



more often than not, the two things are mutually exclusive, due to them practically being at the opposite ends of the spectrum, plus it's not so easy to successfully merge/integrate them with each other.

One should also keep in mind that there's a whole audience out there who simply wants to be entertained without having to think too much.
GC's clearly geared towards said audience, for better or for worse.
As I said, I just don't think that has to be the case. Having one's expectations challenged surely can't be such an inherently bad thing. Even silly cliche harem comedies can separate themselves from the pack by being just a little unique and that makes them more memorable too. I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for having any taste at any rate. If someone enjoys GC despite all the aforementioned gripes and doesn't care to discuss anything of that nature then none of what I and others are saying holds any meaning to them anyway.

But it's not as though GC presents itself as mindless entertainment anyway, with its sorrowful internal monologues, themes about sovereignty, corruption, brutality, and mass murder. Too serious to take lightly and too light to take seriously.
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:55   Link #1125
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They say that the real fight for manga serialization starts from the second chapter.

While this is anime, I suppose this holds true for Guilty Crown's anime adaptation.

Speaking for myself, the second episode was not a letdown. I got to learn specific explanations as to the Void Genom, and the motives why Funeral Parlor came to be.

Spoiler:


For the setting and the story, the GHQ took control for most of the Japanese Government and have remained stations under the pretenses of containing the Apocalypse Virus threat letting out that those under siege are potentially infected.
Their mainstream squad, Anti Bodies, are given absolute discretion as to how handle the quarantined people. Given that Anti Bodies possess an infamous fame for discriminately pass judgement on anyone they unfairly deem as infected or not, Funeral Parlor could no longer let a blind eye for them.

Philosophically, they address themes about evolution from a practical perspective, as it's an everyday war out there, but the rest of Japan doesn't care or turn a blind eye to it, fearing association or retribution from undesirables.

It was expected and real deal that Shu refused Gai's invitation to join Funeral Parlor, as he longs to resume his everyday life, because his instincts told him he's not a fighter, he's just an every boy in a bubble comfort of wandering inside the radar and not too thinking much outside the box.

However, because Funeral Parlor are not willing to turn a blind eye upon a boy wandering casually with perhaps mankind's most powerful, genetic weapon in his possession they inserted Inori inside the realms of his everday life.

Hence, Shu's unwilling other life has come to reclaim him, and he no longer has a choice to say 'no'.
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Old 2011-10-25, 18:09   Link #1126
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I came into this show not expecting anything or knowing anything about it. What I got after 2 episodes is one of the most exciting series this season.

The main character is extremely believable and realistic. He isn't whiny, a recluse, or outright chicken. He is human, with human beliefs and human reactions.

I absolutely love the character designs. Everyone is beautifully drawn, and the best part is that none of the girls in the show look like they implanted watermelons for human parts.

The action is great, and it draws me in. The story so far is interesting and deeper than I would expect from a mecha show. It is not so convulated as to try to confuse me, so that is definitely a plus for its straightforwardness.

I have spotted complaints about how it "borrows" elements from other shows. However, does it mean it is automatically bad if it does? Almost every show/movie out there today has borrowed elements from other shows/movies. It is what you do with that material that makes the show entertaining or not. Sometimes trying to do too much or too different will make a show confusing and unentertaining. I love this show the way it is right now, after 2 episodes.

If I do not over-analyze every detail and just enjoy it for what it is, then I think this show is absolutely fantastic. If I am critical of every detail, then I might as well stop watching anime. There are many more popular shows out there that make even less sense than this show.
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Old 2011-10-25, 18:45   Link #1127
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
There's nothing to defend against though. Simply saying something is boring is just an expression of an opinion, not.an actual argument.
I guess that's true. Oh well, let's just see how the third episode turns out.

Edit: Since I don't want to add any more posts than necessary, I'll explain why I don't like the characters, since I don't think I did that very well. Shu and Inori are just the typical good guy and strange girl. They haven't shown any personality besides that, except for when Shu used his "king's power". On top of that, I hated their expressions. Besides the first time he used this power (and it didn't last that long), Shu has this whiny "I'm worried" expression the entire time we see him. This would be fine if the anime's atmosphere was good, but it's very straight-faced and doesn't really carry much mystery, making it hard for me to care about him. Inori always has this blank expression on her face on top of being whimsical just for the sake of being whimsical, and why is she wearing that outfit? I guess you could argue it's her singing outfit, but I still refuse to believe an Internet singer can be this annoyingly whimsical.

The others...Gai just reminds me of the generic outline of Lelouch and Holland, without giving him any of his own personality. His motivations are just so weird and forced that I can't bring myself to be interested in him. The blond guy whose name I can't remember (and I thought died, but apparently he didn't), I actually almost liked him. I want to see him more. But he wasn't fleshed out enough to save this episode. The two girls whose names I don't remember...why, just why?

And like I said, I acknowledge that this show started with some good action and a nice BANG! But if you don't add any substance to it, then it's just the anime equivalent of junk food.

That's why I didn't like the characters, that's why I didn't like this episode, and that's why I hope the rumors that the anime will be more character-focused in two days (that are feeling like four), because this controversy needs to end...fast!
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Old 2011-10-25, 18:45   Link #1128
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Playing devil's advocate a bit here because this series is way too overhated with only 2 episodes on its belt. I've been reading generic plot this generic character that, but really, how many anime series aren't generic? Let's have a look at some titles just this year that got really high praise but aren't exactly anything special plot or character (or both wise).
Generic really isn't the best word for it, but usually when people call something generic they most likely mean that the show is something that does very little different from its contemporaries in an invigorating manner to capture people's attention. Basically they seen it all before and they are bored of it.

Now, of course a plot can be something that's been done before and not necessarily be bad by default, but for this to work it really needs to have certain attractive features which include quality of execution, nice production values, consistent story telling, etc. If you are trying to execute an idea that's essentially been done before 100000 times in recent memory, but don't do it equally as good or better, then of course people are going to look at your show as bad.

Guilty Crown's main issue is that its execution is off. It's trying to present itself as something to be taken rather seriously, but as the same time is doing everything possible to subvert its more serious tone whether it be the ending parts of season 1, the misplaced and unnecessary fanservice, the bulging eye completely evil villains with no depth, etc. The plot being generic just amplifies these facts. Luckily for a lot of people, its excellent visuals and audio help to cover up these problems.

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Anohana. This has a pretty generic premise if you ask me. A group of friends are trying to get over the death of a childhood friend and drama enfolds. A ton of melodrama and waterworks, much like those K/J-dramas I see on TV everyday, albeit with "anime" characters.
It's not like Ano Hana doesn't get its criticisms, and if you're forgetting that people actually bothered to criticize it I recommend reading up people's reviews overall on it. I remember more than a few describing Ano Hana as an anime about cheap emotional gimmicks with little to no substance

Regardless, I don't think Ano Hana is the cream of the crop when it comes to shows, and I expressed that when I gave it an 8/10. It did become a bit too melodramatic for its own good. Still, there were certain attractive features of Ano Hana, and one of its main strengths the quality of the character interactions throughout its run. Few series in the genre this year managed to match Ano Hana in that department. So far Guilty Crown is only able to boast better production values than most, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Usagi Drop. An anime about a bachelor 30y.o. male raising an abandoned little girl. Heartwarming to the max but is the plot something to be mind-boggled about? Not really.
How many shows had the same premise and character dynamic, approached the same themes with that level of maturity, captured the essence of raising a child and all the worries and responsibilities that come with in in recent times? As far as I know, none. Execution of course is important, but generic story for anime? I think not.

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
And yet there are some people who complain as if this series is a failure. To me, with the exception of Fate/Zero which is on a different tier really, it's incomparable to other action/thriller based series this season like Persona 4 or Mirai Nikki which has more severe problems than Guilty Crown, yet I've seen people stop complaining about P4 by episode 3 and people claiming that Mirai Nikki is the shiz. They are as much if not more generic than Guilty Crown is (the former showing the difficulties of adapting a JRPG to an anime, with the latter being little more than a yandere-fetish combined with a poor man's version of Battle Royale) but with noticeable directing problems.
Coming in a lot of people expected a more mature sci-fi story. If that's what they wanted, they aren't going to get it. On that front, Guilty Crown is certainly failing as it is teetering awkwardly on a line between trying to be taken seriously, and some sci-fi story that is just over the top, which can be entertaining, but they really have to choose one way or the other.

And Persona 4 got ripped by critics, and most of the people who disliked it at the start already dropped it I would presume. Mirai Nikki isn't that universally accepted like you make it seem, nor does it have the viewership base that this show does. At the very least though, these shows have the advantage of having clear advertising to viewers. People know what to expect. A lot of people came into this show with lots of different desires and expectations, and the viewer base is larger, so naturally more critics are going to come out on this show vocally.

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
I think some people need to get off the hate bandwagon and learn to sit back and just enjoy it. Or just drop the series like I did with Persona 4. If people can just sit back and genuinely enjoy the bickering and bantering between Yozora and Sena in Boku wa Tomodachi, why can't they have the same attitude for Guilty Crown? Is it the favoritism of the "slice of life" genre in general and how it seems to be "immune" to any plot criticisms?

One final note, I think people need to be a bit more patient. I recall highly acclaimed series like Tiger and Bunny and Steins Gate taking an entire half of the series before it started to dwell into "amazing" territory.
Mistake #1: Making it seem like the viewership for these different series are exactly the same. Not everyone who watched series XYZ is watching Guilty Crown. You're attacking some group of people without a form or order.

Mistake #2: Assuming different shows in different genres can be evaluated under the same criteria. It's fairly obvious that more slice of life like shows are aiming for different things than shows like Guilty Crown. Boku wa Tomodachi can live off simply amusing character interactions because it's primarily a character driven story with little else of value to it. Guilty Crown on the other hand doesn't necessarily have the most amusing character interaction for people, nor does it compromise mostly of character interactions like Boku Wa Tomodachi. It has many action elements, and a scifi setting, as well as a plot it tries to portray very seriously. There are different things to look at between each series by default.

Mistake #3: Assuming people don't have explainable and consistent views. It's not necessarily the case that people bash certain series for XYZ but give a pass for XYZ to another series. If you can point out people with inconsistent views, do so directly, but until then it's no better than bashing some invisible strawman.

~~~~~


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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
P.S. I just can't understand when people say that something is only meant to be entertaining, as though that is mutually exclusive with being anything else. Why not aim higher? Sure there's a bigger chance of failure but that's not such a big concern when you've got an experienced staff at the helm. Why not be entertaining and thought provoking, or entertaining and unique? I'd say it's killing too birds with one stone as its more fun that way anyway. Will it not be entertaining if the antagonists aren't total 2-bit assholes or a few less cliches are used? Just wondering. I don't even complain about fanservice usually, I'd like it to fix those problems first.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
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Old 2011-10-25, 20:31   Link #1129
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Firstly, I did say I'm playing devil's advocate so if I am probably defending Guilty Crown more than I need to, but for argument's sake and to prevent GC from turning into a "bitching fest" is why l am defending it a bit.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Generic really isn't the best word for it, but usually when people call something generic they most likely mean that the show is something that does very little different from its contemporaries in an invigorating manner to capture people's attention. Basically they seen it all before and they are bored of it.

Now, of course a plot can be something that's been done before and not necessarily be bad by default, but for this to work it really needs to have certain attractive features which include quality of execution, nice production values, consistent story telling, etc. If you are trying to execute an idea that's essentially been done before 100000 times in recent memory, but don't do it equally as good or better, then of course people are going to look at your show as bad.
The same can be said for nearly every slice of life/moe/comedy/fan-service series out there. Those have also been done over 9k times. Yet some people don't get sick of them. Yet go outside of those genres and expect a lot of criticism. The level of criticism GC is getting atm is similar to the level of criticism JC Staff LN Adaptation 101 is getting atm, which I don't think GC is deserved of getting.

Quote:
Guilty Crown's main issue is that its execution is off. It's trying to present itself as something to be taken rather seriously, but as the same time is doing everything possible to subvert its more serious tone whether it be the ending parts of season 1, the misplaced and unnecessary fanservice, the bulging eye completely evil villains with no depth, etc. The plot being generic just amplifies these facts. Luckily for a lot of people, its excellent visuals and audio help to cover up these problems.
I disagree. Given what Guilty Crown has execution is great. It's the content via a rather bland MC and "generic" plot as people call it that has some problems.

As for fan-service, it's practically in every series. And in every Hollywood blockbuster movie. I'll assume the two examples of "unnecessary fan-service" you are talking about is Tsugumi using her butt to tap a computer screen and that air duct scene with MC looking at Inori's butt. Well that's two. The latter is pretty facepalm worthy I'll admit, but the former actually had some "purpose" albeit it wasn't that important . So I don't know really know what misplaced and unnecessary fan-service you are talking about otherwise.

As for the main villian in GC, cmon, you've had 1 episode to see him show his character. I recall Lunatic from Tiger and Bunny being initially a one-dimensional villain, granted he got better AFTER an entire half of the series. Give it some time. Pretty sure you are going see some development from him in the near future.

Quote:
It's not like Ano Hana doesn't get its criticisms, and if you're forgetting that people actually bothered to criticize it I recommend reading up people's reviews overall on it. I remember more than a few describing Ano Hana as an anime about cheap emotional gimmicks with little to no substance

Regardless, I don't think Ano Hana is the cream of the crop when it comes to shows, and I expressed that when I gave it an 8/10. It did become a bit too melodramatic for its own good. Still, there were certain attractive features of Ano Hana, and one of its main strengths the quality of the character interactions throughout its run. Few series in the genre this year managed to match Ano Hana in that department. So far Guilty Crown is only able to boast better production values than most, but that's about it.
You already know that I am aware of criticisms of Ano Hana so no need to bring that up. You can find critics anywhere and everywhere if you look hard enough. The difference is in the level of proportion. When I think of Guilty Crown threads, I see half the people criticizing it whilst the half the people enjoying it. When I see the Ano Hana thread, mostly I remember it being a e-peen contest on how much people cried . The level of criticism Ano Hana got is akin to what Fate/Zero is getting atm, which is if you will find some if you look hard enough, but is clearly drowned out by the level of praise it's getting.

Quote:
How many shows had the same premise and character dynamic, approached the same themes with that level of maturity, captured the essence of raising a child and all the worries and responsibilities that come with in in recent times? As far as I know, none. Execution of course is important, but generic story for anime? I think not.
I really don't think you can call the premise of Usagi Drop outstanding either. Perhaps I'm mixing mediums because I've seen Usagi Drop's premise done a fair bit elsewhere (Asian dramas), but you are right it is somewhat rare in anime. But so is Guilty Crown's relatively speaking compared to XYZ slice of life/moe/comedy/fanservice or JC LN Adaptation 101 series.

Execution, characters and general lack of "otaku pandering" in Usagi Drop is what truly made it amazing, but we both already know that.

Quote:
And Persona 4 got ripped by critics, and most of the people who disliked it at the start already dropped it I would presume.
Only the first episode. Check the reception out on episode 2 and then episode 3, it's rather positive. I'm not sure people will be so quick to drop based on 1 episode, or maybe it's the fact the first episode was "so bad" that it gave people low expectations and that episode 2 being decent was amazing in comparison to the first ep. Who knows? Or maybe its the fanbase. Point is, it's getting some undeserved credit atm.

Quote:
Mirai Nikki isn't that universally accepted like you make it seem, nor does it have the viewership base that this show does. At the very least though, these shows have the advantage of having clear advertising to viewers. People know what to expect. A lot of people came into this show with lots of different desires and expectations, and the viewer base is larger, so naturally more critics are going to come out on this show vocally.
You are underestimating Mirai Nikki's fanbase. The manga is quite popular and Yuno Gasai is one of the most known yanderes in the anime/manga world. Both the anime and manga has problems with its own (which is more severe than Guilty Crown's imo) but you are right in that it is largely catering to its fans. A minor side point, but there's some heavy fanservice in this series here too btw... much more than GC, and it's supposed to be a series you are supposed to take "seriously".

Quote:
Mistake #1: Making it seem like the viewership for these different series are exactly the same. Not everyone who watched series XYZ is watching Guilty Crown. You're attacking some group of people without a form or order.
Firstly, Guilty Crown is a "blockbuster-level" series which is going to be watched by the majority of non-casual anime fans. Secondly, rather than attacking, I was suggesting that perhaps people should sit back and enjoy (or drop it if it's THAT painful for them).

Quote:
Mistake #2: Assuming different shows in different genres can be evaluated under the same criteria. It's fairly obvious that more slice of life like shows are aiming for different things than shows like Guilty Crown. Boku wa Tomodachi can live off simply amusing character interactions because it's primarily a character driven story with little else of value to it. Guilty Crown on the other hand doesn't necessarily have the most amusing character interaction for people, nor does it compromise mostly of character interactions like Boku Wa Tomodachi. It has many action elements, and a scifi setting, as well as a plot it tries to portray very seriously. There are different things to look at between each series by default.
I'm already well aware different genres need to be evaluated differently. But what this portrays me is the one of the main reasons why "slice of life" seems to be largely immune to criticism. Also see next point.

Quote:
Mistake #3: Assuming people don't have explainable and consistent views. It's not necessarily the case that people bash certain series for XYZ but give a pass for XYZ to another series. If you can point out people with inconsistent views, do so directly, but until then it's no better than bashing some invisible strawman.
You know I can't flush out people directly since that will be ad hominen and likely breach forum rules . And you are wrong in the notion that I believe some people don't have explainable and consistent views. I am well aware of GC's criticisms and why people are disliking GC. It's just that criticism for GC is being blown out of proportion. That is my ultimate point.
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Old 2011-10-25, 20:40   Link #1130
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
It's just that criticism for GC is being blown out of proportion. That is my ultimate point.
Yeah, what is up with this reaction? I haven't seen anything this bad since a certain LP that I won't name (okay, I know I didn't help by making the same argument about four times). Yes, I will agree that the episode sucked. We still have twenty more to go, people. I seriously doubt that they'd throw all this money and such for something as generic as what we've got so far.

As for what I can do to defend it, let's see: On top of the beautiful art, animation, and editing, there's a feeling that something epic is looming. The poster also showed Shu's school friends as prominent characters, so I'm interested in how they'll factor into the story. And hopefully, we'll get an explanation for why these characters are the way they are. Not much else I can say besides that.
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Old 2011-10-25, 20:49   Link #1131
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post


The same can be said for nearly every slice of life/moe/comedy/fan-service series out there. Those have also been done over 9k times. Yet some people don't get sick of them. Yet go outside of those genres and expect a lot of criticism. The level of criticism GC is getting atm is similar to the level of criticism JC Staff LN Adaptation 101 is getting atm, which I don't think GC is deserved of getting.
You actually answered your own question:

Quote:

Firstly, Guilty Crown is a "blockbuster-level" series which is going to be watched by the majority of non-casual anime fans. Secondly, rather than attacking, I was suggesting that perhaps people should sit back and enjoy (or drop it if it's THAT painful for them).
Most of the people who dislike moe/harem type shoes will avoid those shows all together. Only the most avid of haters would actually go post in a forum for a show they didn't even bother to watch, or only watched just so they can hate on it.

GC on the other hand, invites a lot more viewers, with all sorts of different expectations. If anything, the criticism is warranted because they have such a large budget and wide target audience. Basically, if you're going to the big leagues, you better bring your A-game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
Yes, I will agree that the episode sucked. We still have twenty more to go, people. I seriously doubt that they'd throw all this money and such for something as generic as what we've got so far.
There are tons of examples of terrible big budget productions...
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Old 2011-10-25, 20:56   Link #1132
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
It's just that criticism for GC is being blown out of proportion. That is my ultimate point.
Some people have difficulties distinguishing between "My expectations were wrong, so I am disappointed" vs "This show is disappointing and sucks." Therefore, they blame the show instead of whatever fail expectations they got from watching a trailer.

I'm having a very hard time believing that after only two episodes (considering the story, these should actually count as only one episode split in two), we already have 50+ pages of discussion, half of which are about Code Geass and half with some overlap are expressions of hatred.

Rationally, if this show is "generic" then it cannot be worse than other shows, and in fact the beautiful animation puts it a notch above others. All we know so far is that unlike certain other shows this season (FZ, C3, Shana III, etc), the writers decided to start things off with a bang (Thank you very much!), but there's already bashing. We're only two eps into a 2-cour show, there's plenty of time to complain later if everything degenerates.
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:17   Link #1133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
You actually answered your own question:

Most of the people who dislike moe/harem type shoes will avoid those shows all together. Only the most avid of haters would actually go post in a forum for a show they didn't even bother to watch, or only watched just so they can hate on it.

GC on the other hand, invites a lot more viewers, with all sorts of different expectations. If anything, the criticism is warranted because they have such a large budget and wide target audience. Basically, if you're going to the big leagues, you better bring your A-game.

There are tons of examples of terrible big budget productions...
I know I'm adding more posts to a forum that really got overbloated, but I'd like to add to a few of these comments.

It's true that many people were hyped up for GC for reasons that were different from me (I just saw anime-original mecha with a cool poster and a plot summary that sounded interesting). And it's true that I was disappointed because I didn't feel there was any substance to the BANG it started on. And it's true that right now, it's not even close to the hype it started (most hyped anime meet at least half-way). But we're only two episodes in, and we have so comments that this anime would have gotten its own sub-forum if most of the comments weren't the same thing we've heard over and over. "It's generic, it's Code Geass (it's not), it's too fanservicey". Many ani-bloggers alone have addressed this fact, and it's a little ridiculous when the same complaint is used to fill up more than ten pages of this forum. At least vary the comments a little bit.

And I know there are terrible big budget productions and hype failures (Fractale), but there is just so much effort being thrown at this anime that I refuse to believe it'll turn out generic. I'm hoping for the Eureka Seven route (and truthfully, this anime has more in common with that anime).
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:17   Link #1134
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Well... It is concerning for me how everyone things everyone had high expectation about this series. :/

In my case, I had almost no expectation on series since I read its synopsis... >_> The only reason that I'm criticising this more than other anime is in fact that this has enormous amount of budget going on. It feels like budget for many more good series are just wasted for inferior version of Code Geass.

Repeating this again, but it is so obvious and blatant what Staffs are aiming for is Code Geass No.2. When it is not all, there are some clear indications how Staffs used some stuffs and concepts that Code Geass originally had. If they are going to do that, they must make it BETTER than Code Geass, or otherwise many criticisms of being inferior version of GC. Staffs are clearly risking it, and ultimately, I think Staff failed to show the motivation of surpassing their former work.

It's almost as if staffs WANTS comparison.
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:30   Link #1135
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
I disagree. Given what Guilty Crown has execution is great. It's the content via a rather bland MC and "generic" plot as people call it that has some problems.

As for fan-service, it's practically in every series. And in every Hollywood blockbuster movie. I'll assume the two examples of "unnecessary fan-service" you are talking about is Tsugumi using her butt to tap a computer screen and that air duct scene with MC looking at Inori's butt. Well that's two. The latter is pretty facepalm worthy I'll admit, but the former actually had some "purpose" albeit it wasn't that important . So I don't know really know what misplaced and unnecessary fan-service you are talking about otherwise.

As for the main villian in GC, cmon, you've had 1 episode to see him show his character. I recall Lunatic from Tiger and Bunny being initially a one-dimensional villain, granted he got better AFTER an entire half of the series. Give it some time. Pretty sure you are going see some development from him in the near future.
How is the execution "great"? It's horribly generic--the plot has been done in anime a million times before. The characters are more like caricatures; they speak in clichéd lines and fail to make you care about them. Tell me--what is Guilty Crown doing (thematically and stylistically) that's new?

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
You already know that I am aware of criticisms of Ano Hana so no need to bring that up. You can find critics anywhere and everywhere if you look hard enough. The difference is in the level of proportion. When I think of Guilty Crown threads, I see half the people criticizing it whilst the half the people enjoying it. When I see the Ano Hana thread, mostly I remember it being a e-peen contest on how much people cried . The level of criticism Ano Hana got is akin to what Fate/Zero is getting atm, which is if you will find some if you look hard enough, but is clearly drowned out by the level of praise it's getting.
I mean, Ano Hana was a summer show. It wasn't a blockbuster, and it definitely didn't have the level of hype that Guilty Crown did. When a show spends so much on advertising and the hype escalates through the roof, you can't expect the backlash to be small when a significant portion of the audience think that it sucks.

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
I really don't think you can call the premise of Usagi Drop outstanding either. Perhaps I'm mixing mediums because I've seen Usagi Drop's premise done a fair bit elsewhere (Asian dramas), but you are right it is somewhat rare in anime. But so is Guilty Crown's relatively speaking compared to XYZ slice of life/moe/comedy/fanservice or JC LN Adaptation 101 series.

Execution, characters and general lack of "otaku pandering" in Usagi Drop is what truly made it amazing, but we both already know that.
So you agree that the execution, the characters, originality of the story (to anime), and the lack of "otaku pandering" is what made the series Usagi Drop good.

Guilty Crown panders to otaku, has poor execution, cardboard cutout characters, and a story that thus far ain't too original--aside from the music and animation, how can anyone call it a "good" show?


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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
You are underestimating Mirai Nikki's fanbase. The manga is quite popular and Yuno Gasai is one of the most known yanderes in the anime/manga world. Both the anime and manga has problems with its own (which is more severe than Guilty Crown's imo) but you are right in that it is largely catering to its fans. A minor side point, but there's some heavy fanservice in this series here too btw... much more than GC, and it's supposed to be a series you are supposed to take "seriously".
Mirai Nikki is by no means supposed to be a "serious" show; it's a horror show, but it isn't trying to shove any moral message down anyone's throats. It's not trying to create characters that break away from convention--it's a show that was created to entertain.

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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Firstly, Guilty Crown is a "blockbuster-level" series which is going to be watched by the majority of non-casual anime fans. Secondly, rather than attacking, I was suggesting that perhaps people should sit back and enjoy (or drop it if it's THAT painful for them).
That doesn't make any sense. So if a show is a blockbuster, just sit back and enjoy regardless of how it makes you feel? There's a lot of things to criticize in this series, so people will do so.
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:38   Link #1136
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Well... It is concerning for me how everyone things everyone had high expectation about this series. :/

In my case, I had almost no expectation on series since I read its synopsis... >_> The only reason that I'm criticising this more than other anime is in fact that this has enormous amount of budget going on. It feels like budget for many more good series are just wasted for inferior version of Code Geass.

Repeating this again, but it is so obvious and blatant what Staffs are aiming for is Code Geass No.2. When it is not all, there are some clear indications how Staffs used some stuffs and concepts that Code Geass originally had. If they are going to do that, they must make it BETTER than Code Geass, or otherwise many criticisms of being inferior version of GC. Staffs are clearly risking it, and ultimately, I think Staff failed to show the motivation of surpassing their formal work.
I really don't think they were trying to go for a second Geass with this. As Yamada has previously, they were going more for a GitS or Eden of the East with GC. All the Geass comparisons are because of the setting and "power of kings" received from a girl. But none of that is what made Geass unique, rebellion settings and powers granted by magical females were nothing new, what made Geass unique, fresh, and a smash hit was entirely Lelouch. Death Note rode that same wave of success because of Light, although setting was indeed more unique in DN. I trust that Araki, Ichiro, and Hiroyuki all know this and realize that this series will not be anything close to DN and Geass simply because the MC is a standard no-confidence, no-ambition protagonist.
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:40   Link #1137
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Spoiler for Flowers are so pretty:
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:48   Link #1138
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
lol I've been saying that internet anime fandom shows favoritism towards so called "slice of life" shows for years now.
Agreed. This is also something I've felt for awhile now myself.

There's many "slice of life" shows I've liked (well, unless you go by the strictest definition of "slice of life") but I really do think it's a lot easier to have a show with a nice, relaxing atmosphere and/or that's heartwarming than it is to have an action-packed show with high-production values and a more complex/serious plot.

Rather than admiring anime shows that display the ambition to do something bold and blockbuster-y, some here seem to punish them for it.

Case in point:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post

Mistake #2: Assuming different shows in different genres can be evaluated under the same criteria. It's fairly obvious that more slice of life like shows are aiming for different things than shows like Guilty Crown. Boku wa Tomodachi can live off simply amusing character interactions because it's primarily a character driven story with little else of value to it. Guilty Crown on the other hand doesn't necessarily have the most amusing character interaction for people, nor does it compromise mostly of character interactions like Boku Wa Tomodachi. It has many action elements, and a scifi setting, as well as a plot it tries to portray very seriously. There are different things to look at between each series by default.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
You actually answered your own question:

Most of the people who dislike moe/harem type shoes will avoid those shows all together. Only the most avid of haters would actually go post in a forum for a show they didn't even bother to watch, or only watched just so they can hate on it.

GC on the other hand, invites a lot more viewers, with all sorts of different expectations. If anything, the criticism is warranted because they have such a large budget and wide target audience. Basically, if you're going to the big leagues, you better bring your A-game.

So there you have it. Some here are basically saying that a double-standard approach should be used here, and that Guilty Crown should be nit-picked to death because it has a large budget and wide target audience.

I think this is unjustified. I also think that this sort of response on the part of fans actually discourages anime studios from trying something bold and blockbuster-y.

Why try to come up with a serious/complex plot for a blockbuster-y high production values action-packed anime when you could just produce the latest "healing" anime, or ecchi anime, or harem comedy anime, and call it a day?

Again, it's not that I dislike these other types of anime (heck, I'm loving Tamayura Hitotose, and it's "healing" anime if ever there was any), but I also recognize that they're much more commonplace than what Guilty Crown is aiming for. I want anime studios to feel motivated to create more shows like Guilty Crown, and not always play it safe with genres where being "generic" actually means you're probably giving the fans what they want (re: Dahak86's response to me here).

But by holding such shows to a much higher standard than we do most/all other anime shows, all that does is discourage anime companies to try to create shows like that.
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:51   Link #1139
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Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
I really don't think they were trying to go for a second Geass with this. As Yamada has previously, they were going more for a GitS or Eden of the East with GC. All the Geass comparisons are because of the setting and "power of kings" received from a girl. But none of that is what made Geass unique, rebellion settings and powers granted by magical females were nothing new, what made Geass unique, fresh, and a smash hit was entirely Lelouch. Death Note rode that same wave of success because of Light, although setting was indeed more unique in DN. I trust that Araki, Ichiro, and Hiroyuki all know this and realize that this series will not be anything close to DN and Geass simply because the MC is a standard no-confidence, no-ambition protagonist.
Yeah. I think you are more right than me. I'm just saying the fact that it is almost inevitable not bringing Code Geass into this matter, when there are some obvious similarities, including staffs and concept. I don't know why people are so annoyed about the comparison.
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Old 2011-10-25, 22:00   Link #1140
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I don't know why people are so annoyed about the comparison.
I don't know about why others are annoyed, but for me it's because the similarities and differences were so damn obvious that they were not worth the 10+ pages of essays that people posted. When a mod has to step in to tell people to shut it, you know it's gone overboard.
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