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Old 2011-10-29, 12:37   Link #1401
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes they did that to make a cliffhanger. And they achieved that by making him look as creepy as possible. It's supposed to be part of his character. And I'd say "colorful sadist" definitely counts as a mustache twirling villian.
Then there's "mustache twirling villains" in the real world, then, and having one or two in an anime like this is no. big. deal.


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At least some? I'm getting the opposite really. They've shown little except a completely evil police state.
A completely evil police state? That's really quite an exaggeration. The average Japanese citizen seems to be able to move about pretty freely here. Does Shu's school look like one in a "completely evil police state" to you? It certainly doesn't to me.


Quote:
They made the previous villians evil enough so that no one would bat an eyelid at Shuu commiting mass murder.
Shu didn't commit "mass murder". He shielded his side of the field of battle, leading to the destruction of enemy forces. It was a battle in a war. When a soldier kills an enemy soldier in order to defend an ally I wouldn't classify that as "murder". Killing to defend an ally, yes, but not murder.


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That Sumpreme Commander came across to me as a possible token grey. Nowhere near actual grey.
The Supreme Commander is in too important a role to be "token" anything, imo. He may well turn out to be actual grey.


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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
While I can't speak for Zwei, as I never watched Phantom of the Inferno, I don't think Yuiichi and Tomoya are good examples of angst turned hero.
Yuiichi I agree with you on, but not Tomoya. Tomoya had moments of considerable angst, and started out every bit as angsty as what Shu did in this anime.

Orion made a great counter to felix there, imo.
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Old 2011-10-29, 12:48   Link #1402
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Sides View Post
I am the only one who thinks Shu is unrealistic?
Ok, he is 17, whines about not having friends or not be able to fit in, fine I give him that. However he obviously does have at least one friend, the girl with him on the train, in the first episode, but he seems to be is a bit picky about choice of friends.
But the main issue is he doesn't care about killing people or the consequences of his involvement during the "terrorists attack"....
Good point about his one friend there. But maybe he is thinking about buddies, as opposed to friends of the opposite sex. Anyway, osananajimi are often ignored, lol.

As for not caring about killing people, I don't get that. He only attacked mechas, as far as I recall. And the mechas were fighting for the side that had just executed a bunch of innocent people.
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Old 2011-10-29, 12:51   Link #1403
orion
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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
I take issue with that last one. Zwei had very good reason to be angsty and an even better reason to get over it quickly. I don't have a problem with Shu's character type, it is pretty common in the real world, but I have a problem with how stories in general feel the need to change these people into something they aren't. But happens in every culture because the idea seems to resonate with the average person. It can be done well, but you've got to have a believable impetus and time frame for the change. I will be watching to see if Shu's change is well executed.
You don't know Shu's reasons either. The point is Zwei and Shu are angsty.

As for Yuichi....
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:12   Link #1404
Haak
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then there's "mustache twirling villains" in the real world, then, and having one or two in an anime like this is no. big. deal.
From your perspective yes. And from mine too but obviously it's just a little bit more significant.

Quote:
A completely evil police state? That's really quite an exaggeration. The average Japanese citizen seems to be able to move about pretty freely here. Does Shu's school look like one in a "completely evil police state" to you? It certainly doesn't to me.
What about when that military unit had orders to massacre a load of civilians for no reason. You wouldn't call that evil?

Quote:
Shu didn't commit "mass murder". He shielded his side of the field of battle, leading to the destruction of enemy forces. It was a battle in a war. When a soldier kills an enemy soldier in order to defend an ally I wouldn't classify that as "murder". Killing to defend an ally, yes, but not murder.
Look, this is just mere semantics now. The point is that we saw the death of a whole load of soldiers and we, including the characters, weren't meant to bat an eyelid at it. This is all because they were made out to be so evil we wouldn't care about their deaths. It's more than possible that there was at least one soldier there just doing his job and not even liking it. Nope, no chance of that. They were all evil. All of their deaths is completely okay. That was the message. And this is pretty much most of what we've seen of the GHQ. The point is that this side not being protrayed as having "atleast some evil elements". So far it's been portrayed as having mostly evil elements.

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The Supreme Commander is in too important a role to be "token" anything, imo. He may well turn out to be actual grey.
Well I certainly hope so, even though I disagree with the idea that he even has an important role in the GHQ considering how completely shafted he was. Although it's still too early to tell, my guess is that he'll either be killed by the GHQ or will defect.
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:16   Link #1405
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
As for not caring about killing people, I don't get that. He only attacked mechas, as far as I recall. And the mechas were fighting for the side that had just executed a bunch of innocent people.
The mecha being destroyed seems to have some significant consequence on the operator if we go by the reaction early in episode 2, and I can't help but think the large explosion (the mechs only seemed melted) at the end of the light show came from the mobile HQ with all the people handling field operations in it.
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:17   Link #1406
Sides
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
As for not caring about killing people, I don't get that. He only attacked mechas, as far as I recall. And the mechas were fighting for the side that had just executed a bunch of innocent people.
My bad, I thought he killed the big mac at the end of episode two and the mecha pilots. I was under the impression, that if the mechs get destroyed, it will leave the pilots brain damage. So I take my previous statement back.
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:20   Link #1407
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Yuiichi I agree with you on, but not Tomoya. Tomoya had moments of considerable angst, and started out every bit as angsty as what Shu did in this anime.
Did you not read the rest of what I said? Tomoya was angsty, but he never let that define him, even though it was a major part of him. He talks to people (mostly girls), he plays tricks on them, and he always speaks his mind. Shu lets his angst define him 24/7. Besides, Tomoya's reasons for being angsty were established early on. Plus, he smiles a lot for a kid with problems like his.

I don't deny that Shu has his reasons for being whiny. But the anime hasn't even hinted that it will explain the reason in the future. Saying "this is how people are in real life" doesn't cut it. Especially when you have a main protagonist who isn't funny (although I did laugh when he whined that people should care about his feelings more), isn't charming, isn't smart, isn't good at communication, and barely even smiles.
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:28   Link #1408
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Three episodes in, and probably dropping it now. The more I watch it, the further any potential enjoyment I could derive from the show seems to run.

It's like the show has a personality disorder, wanting to make political commentary amidst a would-be serious setting close enough to our own world to be relatable, yet doing so through a cast of characters and actions that seem far, far too juvenile to actually be part of said setting and anything but relatable. Worse, these same characters are supposed to be some of the major players here.

Terrorists prancing around broad daylight and transferring to schools despite their faces being public knowledge, military commanders of a would-be relief force who wouldn't be out of place in a madhouse and operating with all the grace of a Nazi concentration camp without even attempting to look otherwise ... and then you have all the typical high school anime hijinks introduced here, from accidental breast groping to female suddenly moving in with the male character, to proclamations about wanting to be together forever that comes about fifteen episodes worth of character development early. Rather than having personalities, these characters feel defined by the tropes they represent.

For everything the show does well, it counters with something that's hard to take seriously, or even respectfully. The writing just doesn't seem to be up to the task of operating within the setting of it's own creation with anything resembling plausibility. Pretentious is how this shows comes off to me more often than not, because I feel like I am constantly being force-fed the idea it's more than it actually is. A pretty package best left unopened, lest the contents ruin the first impressions.

So ... yeah, dropping the show, it just doesn't seem to be heading in any direction that would promise anything but long-term frustration for me. Might change my mind later if I happen to hear good feedback suggesting it managed to straight itself, but unless that happens, best to steer clear of what seems to be shaping up as weekly twenty minutes of unfortunately wasted potential
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:41   Link #1409
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It's not that Shu does not care about the people getting killed because he definitely cared. BUT, he was afraid of the real truth AND therefore RAN from that real world and back to his school "dream" world. That's a big difference than not caring.

Going to post what I said before:

Basically 1st episode is about Shu's life and his "dream" world that he lives in. 1st episode also shows how he was slowly dragged into the real world (actually he chose to continue to see the real world when he took Fyu-neru to the Undertakers). In Episode 2 he experienced the real world and how things are not okay and in fact is breaking everything that he wanted is his little "dream" world. He gets scared and ran way from the real world into his "dream" world again by the end of episode 2. Episode 3 with Inori joining school shows that the real world is in fact interacting with his dream world. Basically he can't run away from the truth and by the end of episode 3 was dragged back into the real world. This 3 episodes is pretty much like what Gai said that he only have 2 choices. Fight or run and hide and slowly get erased from the world. Now episode 4 should show his choices and whether he wants to continue running and hiding or now fight and survive.

And don't anyone remember Simon from Gurren Lagann? Seems like everyone forgot him.

@ Skyfall
Haha I agree with you. However I tend to enjoy things either way even if it's full of tropes and whatnot because I usually take it as the series itself and don't compare with others. However do hope that it "straightens" itself then you can come back and watch it. For now I think we probably need to wait till episode 10 or so to see where it goes.

One thing I don't agree however is "Terrorists prancing around broad daylight and transferring to schools despite their faces being public knowledge". Only Gai shows his face. Inori however... I don't know.
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Old 2011-10-29, 13:55   Link #1410
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But school isn't a dream world. It's also the real world. Lots of people carry on their lives in situations that aren't ideal. It's not like one has to take a dangerous stance just because it exists in front of you.

Just look at all the benefits he got, prob thanks to his mother. A nice apartment, a nice school, clean food and water, clothes, consumer electronics to play with...The guy has it good. People in comfortable situations aren't going to become terrorists unless they lose what they got or have an agenda. I bet Gai is a rich dude with an agenda.

I sure as hell wouldn't join a resistance knowing that I'd loose all basic human rights if caught and prob wouldn't get rescued by my comrades. When Inori got caught, did Gai actually make an attempt to retrieve her? No, he guilt tripped Shu into doing it. Not something that I would want to be a part of.

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Originally Posted by Enternal View Post
One thing I don't agree however is "Terrorists prancing around broad daylight and transferring to schools despite their faces being public knowledge". Only Gai shows his face. Inori however... I don't know.
They have blood evidence for her involvement back in episode 1.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:18   Link #1411
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But school isn't a dream world. It's also the real world. Lots of people carry on their lives in situations that aren't ideal. It's not like one has to take a dangerous stance just because it exists in front of you.
It is a dream world. A world where he does not have to face any death, cruelty, and etc. It's a place where he a 17 year old and can live just like a student day to day. In a sense it is a dream world compared to what he saw when he went with Gai.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:20   Link #1412
Haak
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In that sense we all must be living in a dream world, living comfortably whilst lives are lost for oil and other resources...
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:20   Link #1413
NoOneKnowS
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Wow, lot of anti-replies against Guilty Crown here.

Seriously, what did you guys expect? Just that it has top notch visuals, CG's and animations doesn't literally mean a top class anime w/ "serious" "oh so awesome" plot. It's entertaining, if the viewer simply watches it to be entertained; and not be critically conscious on every goddamn little detail. I mean looked at Naruto. Hate on that more than this.

As for Ep3. I kinda liked it. Though I'm more interested on the action packed EP's that surely is to come judging by the nature of this anime. Lol at the voids Shu got. "voids are the shape of one heart/of ones fears and complexes etc...". Then we got a huge ass fridge out of one guy. How sad could that guy be.

I'm still sticking with this anime. Lovin' every second of it. Besides I have Fate/Zero for serious awesome storytelling anyway.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:30   Link #1414
Enternal
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
In that sense we all must be living in a dream world, living comfortably whilst lives are lost for oil and other resources...
Hmm can't tell if you're mocking me. So let me rephrase.

To Shu, the school is a place where not much happens to him. He goes to school. He goes home. When he went with Gai out to what really happens outside of the school, he saw people gets killed for no reason and all in front of his eyes. What does he do? He goes back to the comfort of his school where he was initially and did not have to face any of the things he saw with Gai. So in a sense, the school is his "dream" world. The thing he saw with Gai is the "real" world and is reality. Shu thought that he can run away from what really happens in reality around him by not joining and Gai and go back to his "dream" world but what in reality, all things that happen is interconnected which is shown when Inori (from the real world according to Shu) shows up in his very own "dream" world. Episode 3 he was dragged back into reality where he must now make a decision of either fight or try to run away again back to his "dream" world.

I'm not saying school is a dream world. I'm saying school to Shu is a "dream" world.

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Hehe. Same here.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:37   Link #1415
Haak
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Originally Posted by Enternal View Post
Hmm can't tell if you're mocking me. So let me rephrase.

To Shu, the school is a place where not much happens to him. He goes to school. He goes home. When he went with Gai out to what really happens outside of the school, he saw people gets killed for no reason and all in front of his eyes. What does he do? He goes back to the comfort of his school where he was initially and did not have to face any of the things he saw with Gai. So in a sense, the school is his "dream" world. The thing he saw with Gai is the "real" world and is reality. Shu thought that he can run away from what really happens in reality around him by not joining and Gai and go back to his "dream" world but what in reality, all things that happen is interconnected which is shown when Inori (from the real world according to Shu) shows up in his very own "dream" world. Episode 3 he was dragged back into reality where he must now make a decision of either fight or try to run away again back to his "dream" world.

I'm not saying school is a dream world. I'm saying school to Shu is a "dream" world.

@ NoOneKnowS
Hehe. Same here.
Okay fair enough. I don't agree with that but that's not really my problem. I'm just confused to what you were replying to when you said "It's not that Shu does not care about the people getting killed because he definitely cared" even though I think the original point was about him not caring about the fact that he killed people, not that people are getting killed. Or was this just a seperate point?
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:43   Link #1416
orion
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Originally Posted by Enternal View Post
It is a dream world. A world where he does not have to face any death, cruelty, and etc. It's a place where he a 17 year old and can live just like a student day to day. In a sense it is a dream world compared to what he saw when he went with Gai.
Well it's not a dream. It's another version of reality. Just like you have different socioeconomic classes with different standards of living.

Shu can still go back to his level. He just tells the government what they want to know and/or joins them.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:45   Link #1417
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Even if Shu tells the government on what they want. He won't still be coming back on his normal life because he already has the power of kings. That alone is the proof that his normal life has ended. The government won't let him go or the funeral parlor.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:45   Link #1418
Enternal
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Well it's not a dream. It's another version of reality. Just like you have different socioeconomic classes with different standards of living.

Shu can still go back to his level. He just tells the government what they want to know.
Ok. I'm not saying that it's a dream world but meant it as a "dream" (see the quotation marks?) world where he does not have to face what he saw with Gai. But yes that the point I was trying to make. It was another version of reality that is better than what he saw with Gai and thus ran away to it instead. However he's already involved and he cannot just run away...

@ Haak
Yeah that was actually a separate point. I was referring to the part where he saw the innocent people getting killed by those soldiers.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:49   Link #1419
Sides
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Thread need more of her
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I am sad, cannot find fanart of Hare Menjou.
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Old 2011-10-29, 14:50   Link #1420
orion
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Ok. I'm not saying that it's a dream world but meant it as a "dream" (note the quotation marks?) world where he does not have to face what he saw with Gai. But yes that the point I was trying to make. It was another version of reality that is better than what he saw with Gai and thus ran away to it instead.
But that's just going back to your comfortable lifestyle. He does have a right to refuse fighting just like all those other students and adults have done. Besides, his mother works for the govenment. He prob has a level of "untouchablility" around him that he doesn't know about yet.

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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Even if Shu tells the government on what they want. He won't still be coming back on his normal life because he already has the power of kings. That alone is the proof that his normal life has ended. The government won't let him go or the funeral parlor.
They just need his blood sample. He gets a comfortable lifestyle with minimum fighting courtesy of the government.
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