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Old 2011-11-05, 17:42   Link #321
Guardian Enzo
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The nature of the last two pages of posts tells me that this series is succeeding - how often do we see these sorts of discussions?
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Old 2011-11-05, 17:45   Link #322
felix
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1 episode doesn't make a series a success
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Old 2011-11-05, 18:04   Link #323
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For the case of the Komamori curse, my deduction proved this time correct....

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-11-05, 18:07   Link #324
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Guido what episode are you on?
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Old 2011-11-06, 00:35   Link #325
wandering-dreamer
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EDIT: Yep, show has been licensed by Sentai.
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Old 2011-11-06, 04:26   Link #326
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Given that you two stopped this earlier today, this really may not be a good idea, but I did want to comment on it because I see points I agree with on both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
...you simply don't get it. This is not what we're talking about. We're talking about something completely different, the human relation to these androids. Whether humans have the right to create something with the purpose of fully exploiting it for our selfish desires, and then when it gains consciousness, continue treating it that way because the life form doesn't resist against it or even wants it - simply because they can't not want it, not unless its consciousness and (non-artificial) intelligence, its "emotional quotient" elevates above a certain level.
I do agree with this - if something has its own consciousness, or develops one where it didn't have it originally, than I personally think its wrong for humans to (keep) exploiting it. Whether it looks like a human or not, if it has consciousness, or intelligence, then exploiting / using it for pleasure (as opposed to necessity) is, to me, morally wrong.


But at the same time, I completely agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It doesn't matter if we don't know what her opinions are, what matters is that I care to find out, while you dismiss her own views as irrelevant.
No matter what the opinion may be, you have to find out. If you think it's the wrong opinion to have, you should let that sentient being know why, and then let him/her/it make the decision of what to do next.


And I think Kazamori actually made its own decision in deciding not to return to that doll/body when Komomori told it to.
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Old 2011-11-06, 09:20   Link #327
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I'd say this is the best show of the season after episode 4. Mirai Nikki is more fun, Guilty Crown is fun to try and out-think, Fam is fun, but Un-Go is the best. The thing with Un-Go is that there's not a lot of approachable mystery: anything unknown is either explained at the end of the arc or is just very obviously "an unsolvable mystery" (like what Inga is, or where Shinjuro was during the war, etc., we'll find out eventually but guessing now seems hopeless) that I watch it, think it's great, but don't have much to say.

Only speculation I have on Un-Go is if Inga is going to get to ask Rinroku a question, and if so, what'd be good to ask?
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Old 2011-11-06, 10:53   Link #328
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Actually, did anyone else notice in ep2 that Shinjuro sent Rie that song?

Is Shinjuro macking it to Rie? Does Inga know? Rinroku?
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Old 2011-11-06, 15:36   Link #329
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Un-Go has been a very good anime so far. This most recent two-parter was particularly thought provoking, and has spurred some excellent discussion.


This discussion reminds me a lot of two things:

The anime movie Time of Eve, which I heartily recommend, particularly if you want to see a more in-depth exploration of potential sociopolitical issues pertaining to sentient AI.

And it makes me think of Star Trek: The Next Generation Episode "The Measure of a Man". For the full context of this episode, here's a link to an episode synopsis provide by the Star Trek Wiki, Memory Alpha.

In that episode, a formal hearing is held to determine what rights the android Lt. Commander Data enjoys. During that hearing, Capt. Jean-Luc Picard raises some points that I think are very pertinent to the discussion we're having right now on Kazamori. Let me share some of those points with you.


"Commander Riker has dramatically demonstrated to this court that Lieutenant Commander Data is a machine. Do we deny that? No, because it is not relevant – we too are machines, just machines of a different type. Commander Riker has also reminded us that Lieutenant Commander Data was created by a human; do we deny that? No. Again it is not relevant. Children are created from the 'building blocks' of their parents' DNA. Are they property?" - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

So, if a sentient machine arises from humans, what are the real relevant differences between it (or her/him) and a flesh-and-blood human, as it pertains to what rights it should enjoy?


"Your honor, the courtroom is a crucible; in it, we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a purer product: the truth, for all time. Now sooner or later, this man [Commander Maddox] – or others like him – will succeed in replicating Commander Data. The decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of people we are; what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom: expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him [Commander Data] – and all who will come after him – to servitude and slavery? Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life: well, there it sits! Waiting." - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

Capt. Picard hints at a practical issue, one that I think is perhaps not getting enough attention in the debate over Kazamori.

If we say that it is acceptable for sentient AI to be created and programmed simply to be entertainment tools for humans, then we are saying that it is acceptable to condemn a sentient life-form to a life of servitude and slavery. Oh, the RIAs may enjoy some level of choice within that framework of servitude, just as a slave has some choices he is able to make. However, once a sentient being is created with only one or two purposes in mind, and is expected to fulfill them without complaint, then you have essentially created a tool, a servant, a slave.

You have created something, or someone, that will demonstrably enjoy less rights than "human rights". For a term like "sentient rights" to have any practical worth whatsoever, it needs to be as broad and comprehensive in scope as what we hold "human rights" to be. It can be different, but it can be no less.

Now, if what you created is mass produced, with narrow designated roles for each one created, then you have essentially created a subservient subrace. Humans will inevitably view them as inferior, because their range of choices is inherently inferior. You will have lead to the exact sort of nightmare scenario that Capt. Picard envisioned.

The only way to avoid that, really, is for them to be programmed with the same range of personal liberty and freedom that Data enjoys, and then to have laws which respect that personal liberty and freedom.


And this is why I'm pretty sure I agree with kuromitsu, and disagree with Vallen.

In any event, it's great to see Un-Go raise sophisticated moral dilemmas like this, ones that are worth much reflection.

I very much look forward to Un-Go Episode 5.
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Old 2011-11-06, 15:42   Link #330
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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The only way to avoid that, really, is for them to be programmed with the same range of personal liberty and freedom that Data enjoys, and then to have laws which respect that personal liberty and freedom.
I guess the only question remained, is would you chain a sentient robot to the wall and crack her head open to change her basic thought processes, explicitly against her will, because you want to "free" her from making choices you don't approve of.

Easy to say you don't want more AIs made, but what are you planning to do with one who already exists? Are you going to lobotomise a sentient being?

"Hold still damn it! I am trying to jam "liberty and freedom" into your skull, so stop screaming! Be thankful, this is for your own good!"
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Old 2011-11-06, 15:49   Link #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I guess the only question remained, is would you chain a sentient robot to the wall and crack her head open to change her basic thought processes, explicitly against her will, because you want to "free" her from making choices you don't approve of.

Easy to say you don't want more AIs made, but what are you planning to do with one who already exists? Are you going to lobotomise a sentient being?

"Hold still damn it! I am trying to jam "liberty and freedom" into your skull, so stop screaming! Be thankful, this is for your own good!"
If it's against her will, I wouldn't. But we don't know yet if such a reprogramming would be against her will or not, do we?

Furthermore, I wouldn't support the creation of more RIAs with strict programming limitations on personal liberty and freedom. But more RIAs with the programming of a Data? That would be fine.
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Old 2011-11-06, 15:56   Link #332
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If it's against her will, of course not. But we don't know yet if such a reprogramming would be against her will or not, do we?

Furthermore, I wouldn't support the creation of more RIAs with strict programming limitations on personal liberty and freedom. But more RIAs with the programming of a Data? That would be fine.
I guess we found some common ground after all.

I really don't have problems in having more regulation in terms of which types of AI being approved for creation. My main issue had always been the self-identity of any existing AIs and how I want to safeguard their own sense of self. For all intent and purposes if a sentient being hadn't been created, there is no issue.

As long as we differentiate between legal guidelines and morality of course. I just don't want a robot to be treated by the world as if her very existence was a mistake. It would be too cruel.
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Old 2011-11-06, 19:38   Link #333
Dop
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Has there been any explanation on why the creators decided to transplant the setting of Un-Go to near-future Japan when the original was about Meiji Japan?
I think that some of the dialogue would sound pretty iffy if it was about the second world war, and by moving it to some fictitious future war against terrorists they avoided any possible controversy.

On top of that they were able to take some of Ango's original concerns about the times and update them to the current times. We've seen the kind of control over the media and the internet which many modern politicians just wish they had.
The recent AI plot also pretty much builds on many modern concerns.
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Old 2011-11-06, 20:05   Link #334
Guardian Enzo
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That was indeed a fine episode of TNG, and "Data's Daughter" is another fine one that touches on this topic. However, I think it's valid to point out that the gap in AI technology between UN-GO and the 24th-Century in TNG is as great as the gap between the 1960's and the setting in UN-GO. Kazamori ≠ Data, it's as simple as that.

That forces us to decide whether there's a universal law of AI rights that should apply to Data, Kazamori, and theoretically to a Commodore 64, or whether there's a line AI must pass before they're entitled to those rights. That line might be the one past which we deem it to be "sentient" or it might be something else, and that's where the argument lies.
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Old 2011-11-06, 20:06   Link #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post

As long as we differentiate between legal guidelines and morality of course. I just don't want a robot to be treated by the world as if her very existence was a mistake. It would be too cruel.
I agree with that. I hope we do see more of Kazamori in future episodes, and hopefully she'll get a mostly happy end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
That forces us to decide whether there's a universal law of AI rights that should apply to Data, Kazamori, and theoretically to a Commodore 64, or whether there's a line AI must pass before they're entitled to those rights. That line might be the one past which we deem it to be "sentient" or it might be something else, and that's where the argument lies.

Kazamori showed me enough personality and sense of self that I strongly believe that sentience is there.

And sentience is personally where I draw the line. If somebody thinks the line should be drawn somewhere else, I'm open to that argument, but sentience seems like a perfectly good point to draw the line to me.
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Old 2011-11-06, 20:35   Link #336
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
That was indeed a fine episode of TNG, and "Data's Daughter" is another fine one that touches on this topic. However, I think it's valid to point out that the gap in AI technology between UN-GO and the 24th-Century in TNG is as great as the gap between the 1960's and the setting in UN-GO. Kazamori ≠ Data, it's as simple as that.

That forces us to decide whether there's a universal law of AI rights that should apply to Data, Kazamori, and theoretically to a Commodore 64, or whether there's a line AI must pass before they're entitled to those rights. That line might be the one past which we deem it to be "sentient" or it might be something else, and that's where the argument lies.
May I enquire what measure you used to determine Kazamori to be more primitive compared to Data? She is certainly not less intelligent, and the fact that she is self aware is really the line that was crossed. As soon as you reached self-awareness any further "advancement" is impossible to judge, as it is literally beyond human capacity to see past sentience.

Once they have reached where we humans stand, we have officially ran out of yard stick to measure AI further.

It's like the previous argument I had in trying to defend Kazamori's identity, when the other poster was telling me she isn't self aware enough for him to care about her opinions. Which is preposterous.
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Old 2011-11-06, 20:43   Link #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
May I enquire what measure you used to determine Kazamori to be more primitive compared to Data? She is certainly not less intelligent, and the fact that she is self aware is really the line that was crossed. As soon as you reached self-awareness any further "advancement" is impossible to judge, as it is literally beyond human capacity to see past sentience.

Once they have reached where we humans stand, we have officially ran out of yard stick to measure AI further.

It's like the previous argument I had in trying to defend Kazamori's identity, when the other poster was telling me she isn't self aware enough for him to care about her opinions. Which is preposterous.
To defend Enzo just a bit, one would certainly think that an android created in an era of widespread intergalactic space travel (including vast spaceship armadas) would be more advanced than an AI created in an era without that.

Putting that side, though, I also don't see a notable difference between the level of self-awareness/sentience between Data and Kazamori. And I agree with you that once self-awareness/sentience is reached, any further "advancement" is not particular important when you're talking about things like human or sentient rights, imo.
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Old 2011-11-07, 00:04   Link #338
4Tran
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I'm at a curious place in regards to Un-Go. I don't think the show is very good, but I'm still enjoying it a fair bit (and mostly for the right reasons). There's still only a single character I find compelling, I think that Shinjuro's solliloquys are assinine, and the mysteries aren't all that compelling. Yet despite all that, I'm a little curious about the technologies in the show, and I want to see where the creators are planning to take the story.

The overall feel of the political commentary feels completely out of place (out of time?) though. The feel of Japanese government in Un-Go has some similarity to Meiji-Showa Japan, but almost none to modern Japan (especially after the '60s). The original stories took place in Meiji Japan, in an era rife with change and uncertainty, so the way the social systems worked would seem fitting. But modern Japan? With ruined buildings in the the middle of town, and safety police (Kampeitei?) running all over the place? That doesn't seem right at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dop View Post
I think that some of the dialogue would sound pretty iffy if it was about the second world war, and by moving it to some fictitious future war against terrorists they avoided any possible controversy.
Sagakuchi Ango's Meiji Kaika Ango Torimono-chō is based in Meiji Japan (1868-1912). Any relationship to post-WW2 Japan are likely to be allegorical.
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Old 2011-11-07, 01:57   Link #339
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
May I enquire what measure you used to determine Kazamori to be more primitive compared to Data? She is certainly not less intelligent, and the fact that she is self aware is really the line that was crossed. As soon as you reached self-awareness any further "advancement" is impossible to judge, as it is literally beyond human capacity to see past sentience.
If self-awareness is your cutoff, that's fine - I'd not saying that's illegitimate. I'm merely saying that to use Data as an example - a being who has commanded a starship of several hundred crew with no outside direction, created another of his own kind from nothingness and willfully disobeyed orders out of a personal sense of honor rather than Asimov's Laws of Robotics is an order of magnitude more advanced than Kazamori. We don't know everything about Kazamori, that's for sure, but what we've seen points mostly towards an entity that was carrying through his/her creator's instructions for the most part, as well as showing a sense of self-preservation. A reasonable person might call that sentience, but it's not what Data is.
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Old 2011-11-07, 03:34   Link #340
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If self-awareness is your cutoff, that's fine - I'd not saying that's illegitimate. I'm merely saying that to use Data as an example - a being who has commanded a starship of several hundred crew with no outside direction, created another of his own kind from nothingness and willfully disobeyed orders out of a personal sense of honor rather than Asimov's Laws of Robotics is an order of magnitude more advanced than Kazamori. We don't know everything about Kazamori, that's for sure, but what we've seen points mostly towards an entity that was carrying through his/her creator's instructions for the most part, as well as showing a sense of self-preservation. A reasonable person might call that sentience, but it's not what Data is.
Why did you bring up the three laws?

No, seriously, the three laws were never meant to work. Not even in the original novel.

Commanding a starship is just his training, not any kind of superiority. Create his own kind is also not that difficult unless you are saying he did it from scratch. And the three laws are useless to any self-aware robot who can string sentences together.

Your idea of "Advancement" is strange. All you are saying is that he is famous and respected with a high paying job. That's not advancement. That's just him being in a higher social class. For all intent and purposes it does not make him more sentient than a sex bot.

Most of us carry out instructions from our employers. Does that make us less sentient?

I feel that I have hit a nerve. Seriously, there is no need for you to preach about how much "superior" Data is as an android. I can pull out examples of godly reality warping machine gods if I want. But it would not matter because Sentience is not graded. An AI might be smarter or dumber, but Sentience is just Sentience.
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