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Old 2013-03-28, 20:09   Link #2041
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Yeah, but what choices do they have left? Living in fear, hopelessly getting killed for the amusement of those psychos? They'll get killed if they don't fight back. I don't think it's grey vs grey but rather black vs grey at this point, or that their morale concept is too alien for us.

I don't think assassins are good guys either, but at least they didn't go around killing innocent civilians or average soldiers. The morale of the story is that not everyone will agree with your opinion and while it's OK to talk about your POV, you shouldn't just act like a realist and saying things your way trying to force everyone to simply agree with you.

I don't think the killing of those corrupted assholes are great either, but something has to be done. They wouldn't bother assort to assassination if they can pressure the the prime minister politically... well, even UN fail to reason with many dictators... and the problem with it is that we have no idea how to fix. No one does...

Life as aryans in Nazi Germany wasn't so good btw. Most of the victims of the holocaust weren't jews, but any races and anyone that the Nazi think they suck as well as their political enemies (communists, democrats). Most of the Nazi and germans didn't even know about the holocausts either, since it was supposed to be military secret, until some spies who infiltrated the concentration camps told the world.

And the majority of Germans weren't even the supporters of Hitler, it's just that Hitler's supporters were louder...

And lastly, I'm against capital punishment. But the punishment needs to exist, because it's impossible to forgive a crime and let the criminals go free without counter-measure that he will never commit the crime again. I know that it's ideal if the criminals repent and became good, but will that really happen? Some people can, some can't. If you were talking about the right of the criminals, then what about the victim's right?

BTW, Saddam was tried and hanged. Hitler killed himself and his family to escape capture and trial. Most of the tyrants who lost never met a good fate... But they'll keep doing that because some tyrants died normally (Stalin) and those who failed just happen to fail. It doesn't change the fact that it's horrible though. BTW, at least they still have their good sides, although to their enemies (or people they dislike) they would be like a demon.

The situation with corrupted and war torn countries are like those in Middle Eastern and Latin America (as far as the popular media cover), whether it's from the extremists or the war between the corrupted government and not-any-better rebels, and people from there fled their countries for such reasons. It's too messy there. But what will you do anyway? I'm not keen about accepting a lot of immigrants into my country (a lot of whom are so proud of their own country that they fled from), but would that make me look like a jerk without any chance for me to express my opinion? It'd be better if we somehow interfere with the conflict and fix their homeland so that we won't have to accept immigrants, but then the criticism will always come... whatever!
Aryans in Nazi Germany, got monitary grants "brothels" etc dedicated to them and could pretty much get anyway with whatever they wanted. The nazi's didn't like ethnic minorities and gays etc but comparitively the Aryan's were treated well (You only had issues if you were anti nazi). Precisely why did you think the secret police worked so well. Even If you were an "Aryan" enemy (doesn't have to be blonde hair blue eyes), you were comparitively reasonably treated as a prisoner of war, if you were for example russian god help you.

These regimes work with a carrot and a stick, if you don't give people a reason for them to work for you outside of you won't kill them, you won't get particularily loyal subjects. Hitler played to peoples ego and national pride while giving them tangible benefits. That's why he had so many loyal subjects.
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Old 2013-03-28, 20:40   Link #2042
Randrak42
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Oh internet discussions...you always find a way to bring Nazis into the topic.
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Old 2013-03-28, 20:48   Link #2043
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Oh internet discussions...you always find a way to bring Nazis into the topic.
Not really, at least not in regards to any real historical depth. Thing is is about Hitler's rise to power, is that it was heavily influenced by the global great economic crisis and war reparations. That's also why there's an upturn in some of the far right/extremist politicians during these economic times. There's a lot to be learned for conditions required to elect some of the more dangerous elements of society into power.
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Old 2013-03-28, 21:13   Link #2044
NeutralZero
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It can't be helped if it mirror that part of history... though it can be moderated in a way or two especially if some individual find it offensive...
Ran's expression even for a bit is priceless...
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Old 2013-03-28, 22:20   Link #2045
Randrak42
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It's actually a real theory, if a discussion on the web goes on for long enough it will eventually include a Nazi reference.
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Old 2013-03-29, 03:01   Link #2046
Kleeyook
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
It's actually a real theory, if a discussion on the web goes on for long enough it will eventually include a Nazi reference.
Sorry, I hate to bring Nazi to the discussion too. I just took it easy and brought Nazi Germany as an example of state run by tyrannical leader...

Of course, the world isn't such a nice place and there are many moments in its history that are full of horrible things like Witch Hunt.

But if you live in a peaceful country and you see those freaks from the church demonstrating about killing homosexual people or KKK, you can't help but think that those fanatics from the church and those racism extremists are assholes.

I should have realized that my opinion will go nowhere. I know all of us are the type to sit back and say "that's horrible" to anything involving people suffer, while not attempting to do a damn thing but complain.

I regret how the phrase "put yourself into another's shoes" has gone horribly wrong, with people putting themselves into the perpetrator's shoes instead of the victim's.

So, what are you suggesting the NR and the revolution army should do then? Peaceful demonstration knowing full well they'll get slaughtered the moment they do that?
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:46   Link #2047
OverSeer
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Spoiler for 35:


If Esdese should be punished for her crimes and so should Tatsumi and all of NR for murders they have committed. Or are you going to pull this naive way of thinking and say it was the death of evil people or corrupted or for the greater good?

Just don't murder is murder no matter who is killed good or bad.

Basically all should be judged and a fit punishment for both Esdese and NR is death. I think imprisonment is out of the question here.

Yeah this topic you guys are arguing about is pointless and both side are forwarding their own ways of thinking, nothing will get done this way. Only diversity will increase
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Old 2013-03-29, 12:03   Link #2048
DarkDooM
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
If Esdese should be punished for her crimes and so should Tatsumi and all of NR for murders they have committed. Or are you going to pull this naive way of thinking and say it was the death of evil people or corrupted or for the greater good?

Just don't murder is murder no matter who is killed good or bad.
Who cares, the guys they kill are bastards that enjoy torturing and murdering people in the cruelest of ways. Killing 'em is the right way
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Old 2013-03-29, 12:43   Link #2049
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by DarkDooM View Post
Who cares, the guys they kill are bastards that enjoy torturing and murdering people in the cruelest of ways. Killing 'em is the right way
naive child ^_^
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Old 2013-03-29, 12:46   Link #2050
Xion Valkyrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
Spoiler for 35:


If Esdese should be punished for her crimes and so should Tatsumi and all of NR for murders they have committed. Or are you going to pull this naive way of thinking and say it was the death of evil people or corrupted or for the greater good?

Just don't murder is murder no matter who is killed good or bad.

Basically all should be judged and a fit punishment for both Esdese and NR is death. I think imprisonment is out of the question here.

Yeah this topic you guys are arguing about is pointless and both side are forwarding their own ways of thinking, nothing will get done this way. Only diversity will increase
Except soldiers are very rarely punished after a war unless they have committed extremely heinous war crimes, which Esdeses's actions definitely fall under. There's a huge difference between the kind of things Esdese/Empire has done compared to what NR have done. Commanding officers are also far more likely to get tried for war crimes. Anyways, if the Empire wins you can be sure all of NR would get publicly executed anyways.
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Old 2013-03-29, 12:50   Link #2051
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Except soldiers are very rarely punished after a war unless they have committed extremely heinous war crimes, which Esdeses's actions definitely fall under. There's a huge difference between the kind of things Esdese/Empire has done compared to what NR have done. Commanding officers are also far more likely to get tried for war crimes. Anyways, if the Empire wins you can be sure all of NR would get publicly executed anyways.
You telling me every commanding officer gets punished? some will hide and some will never be seen again. As for NR public execution, I still think Tatsumi will be spared and Esdese will claim him as her prize for her victory over NR . And who did what means little, NR should also face the same punishment Esdese does, because taking a ONE life is already too many.
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Old 2013-03-29, 13:36   Link #2052
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
You telling me every commanding officer gets punished? some will hide and some will never be seen again. As for NR public execution, I still think Tatsumi will be spared and Esdese will claim him as her prize for her victory over NR . And who did what means little, NR should also face the same punishment Esdese does, because taking a ONE life is already too many.
Even if NR faces punishment for their crimes, it'd not be the same level of punishment that Esdese would get. And generally soldiers are not punished for killing people in war. When Saddam was toppled only him and his top officials were tried for war crimes.
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Old 2013-03-29, 13:43   Link #2053
OverSeer
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ok, answer this to me, do you think NR should not face punishment for the crimes they committed?

We will work from your reply to this simple question, everything will reveled and how you think on this matter.
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Old 2013-03-29, 13:51   Link #2054
Xion Valkyrie
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Punishment from whom?

If the Empire wins, they will be punished as terrorists.

If the Revolution army wins, they will either be lauded as heroes or erased from all records.

If it's a mutual ceasefire leading to a peace treaty it is likely they will be hanged out to dry as a peace offering by the revolution army.

If you go by medieval standards, they would not be punished at all if the the revolution army wins. Even if you go by current war standards/Geneva convention, they would not be punished.
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Old 2013-03-29, 13:53   Link #2055
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Punishment from whom?

If the Empire wins, they will be punished as terrorists.

If the Revolution army wins, they will either be lauded as heroes or erased from all records.

If it's a mutual ceasefire leading to a peace treaty it is likely they will be hanged out to dry as a peace offering by the revolution army.

If you go by medieval standards, they would not be punished at all if the the revolution army wins. Even if you go by current war standards/Geneva convention, they would not be punished.
No, I mean generally, do you think they deserve punishment for their crimes?
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:08   Link #2056
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
No, I mean generally, do you think they deserve punishment for their crimes?
My view reflect the modern views regarding war crimes and active combatants, so the actions of NR are in line with what combatants are 'allowed' to do during war, and hence would face no punishment after the war ends provided the results are judged by those who do subscribe to the modern standards of warfare.
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:22   Link #2057
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
My view reflect the modern views regarding war crimes and active combatants, so the actions of NR are in line with what combatants are 'allowed' to do during war, and hence would face no punishment after the war ends provided the results are judged by those who do subscribe to the modern standards of warfare.
I hear what you are saying, but let us start with this. Who said that NR and Jagers are at war? It would seem to me it is an active conflict.

Generally the term war is described as conflicts on a massive scale with thousands of soldiers involved on multiple fronts. Land, Air and Sea. I see nothing to suggest this is a war.

The empire does not know NR is part of RA, I think the main char Tatsumi does not realize this himself that he is a soldier of RA. RA and the Empire are not at war. So you simply implying they are at war is invalid because they are not at war.

It is nothing more than a small conflict.

So, that being said everything you said in your sentence is invalid.

Even if you can call it war The Empire does not know NR is part of RA. RA is not officially at war with The Empire, it more of a one sided conflict.

Had the RA be at war with The Empire and RA won, yes I would agree with you a 100% but they are not at war
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:30   Link #2058
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
I hear what you are saying, but let us start with this. Who said that NR and Jagers are at war? It would seem to me it is an active conflict.

Generally the term war is described as conflicts on a massive scale with thousands of soldiers involved on multiple fronts. Land, Air and Sea. I see nothing to suggest this is a war.

The empire does not know NR is part of RA, I think the main char Tatsumi does not realize this himself that he is a soldier of RA. RA and the Empire are not at war. So you simply implying they are at war is invalid because they are not at war.

It is nothing more than a small conflict.

So, that being said everything you said in your sentence is invalid.

Even if you can call it war The Empire does not know NR is part of RA. RA is not officially at war with The Empire, it more of a one sided conflict

They ARE at war. Night Raid is the revolutions covert ops. They are still soldiers in the war, they aren't civilians and they contribute to the war effort.

Just because you don't know what the enemies covert ops are, or whether they exist it doesn't mean your not at war with them. Covert ops are an extremely intergral part to a war effort. They are more important than any indivdual soldier on the ground as information is everything in a war and successful assassination can singlehandly prevent conflicts.

I think your misunderstanding what a war is. A war does not mean massive conflicts of soldiers on fields, in fact modern warfare is nothing like that. More often than not modern warfare involves guerilla warfare against small organized pockets of resistance. This is a civil war, you do not need a declaration for a civil war as this is no formal country. Things aren't remotely clear cut in civil war. But the Empire is in armed conflict with these rebels, they are at war with them hence why Esdese is sent to squash the pockets of resistance.
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:34   Link #2059
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
I hear what you are saying, but let us start with this. Who said that NR and Jagers are at war? It would seem to me it is an active conflict.

Generally the term war is described as conflicts on a massive scale with thousands of soldiers involved on multiple fronts. Land, Air and Sea. I see nothing to suggest this is a war.

The empire does not know NR is part of RA, I think the main char Tatsumi does not realize this himself that he is a soldier of RA. RA and the Empire at not at war. So you simply implying they are at war is invalid because they are not at war.

It is nothing more than a small conflict.

So, that being said everything you said in your sentence is invalid.

Even if you can call it war The Empire does not know NR is part of RA. RA is not officially at war with The Empire, it more of a one sided conflict
The categorization of whether something is a war or not only after the conflict has ended. If the Empire wins, they will just rule the actions of NR as random terrorist actions. However, if the Revolution Army wins, they can categorize the actions of NR as the spear front of their revolution against the Empire.

Also, a good historical parallel with what NR is doing is Operation Valkyrie. They failed and were executed as traitors but are now remembered as heroes. Of course, NR hasn't 'failed' yet and had Germany won WWII things would be a lot different.
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:37   Link #2060
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
They ARE at war. Night Raid is the revolutions covert ops. They are still soldiers in the war, they aren't civilians and they contribute to the war effort.

Just because you don't know what the enemies covert ops are, or whether they exist it doesn't mean your not at war with them. Covert ops are an extremely intergral part to a war effort. They are more important than any indivdual soldier on the ground as information is everything in a war and successful assassination can singlehandly prevent conflicts.
I think you just answered your own statement. Key word "Assassination" NR is indeed a secret NR unit, however their task is to assassinate key Imperial targets like the Jagers to weaken the Empire THEY SERVE NO OTHER PURPOSE. After this has been done an official declaration of war can be made by both sides. What the other guy is saying that Esdese will be tried on War crimes done by her and who will be her judge? RA? THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING EACH OTHER IN BATTLES what gives them the right to judge her on the crimes she committed not even against them. What he is saying is wrong because there cant be any judgment made on the matters of war, WHEN THERE IS NO GOD DAMN WAR. Do you not see what I am saying here? It seems to me the Jagers and NR are fighting each other for their own reasons and not really the revolution.
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