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Old 2013-03-29, 14:42   Link #2061
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
I think you just answered your own statement. Key word "Assassination" NR is indeed a secret NR unit, however their task is to assassinate key Imperial targets like the Jagers to weaken the Empire THEY SERVE NO OTHER PURPOSE. After this has been done an official declaration of war can be made by both sides. What the other guy is saying that Esdese will be tried on War crimes done by her and who will be her judge? RA? THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING EACH OTHER IN BATTLES what gives them the right to judge her on the crimes she committed not even against them. What he is saying is wrong because there cant be any judgment made on the matters of war, WHEN THERE IS NO GOD DAMN WAR
Do you think spies fight in open combat, seriously. There are many components that encomapss a countries war effort, and I don't think you have much understanding of them, but yes spies are considered soldiers. Do you not consider scouts as soldiers, field engineers soldiers, do you not consider Generals as part of the army, do you not consider messengers and communications operatives as part of the army.

What your talking about simply makes no sense, to anyone with even a small understanding of miltarily operations. I soldier it is not simply someone who fights in a field with a weapon. It's not as that simple. anyone who as actually had anything to do with a countries military would laugh at you for it.
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:47   Link #2062
OverSeer
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what qualifications do you have to make this assumption? are you a soldier?

Not trying to be a dick, just asking what is that makes you think you know better than I do. (again not being a dick, this is just a curios standard question) DO you have any military background? school perhaps? or any other materials that might qualify you.

and I never said anything about open combat for spies. SO you are saying NR who are Assassins are spies? is that what you are saying?
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:52   Link #2063
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
I think you just answered your own statement. Key word "Assassination" NR is indeed a secret NR unit, however their task is to assassinate key Imperial targets like the Jagers to weaken the Empire THEY SERVE NO OTHER PURPOSE. After this has been done an official declaration of war can be made by both sides. What the other guy is saying that Esdese will be tried on War crimes done by her and who will be her judge? RA? THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING EACH OTHER IN BATTLES what gives them the right to judge her on the crimes she committed not even against them. What he is saying is wrong because there cant be any judgment made on the matters of war, WHEN THERE IS NO GOD DAMN WAR. Do you not see what I am saying here? It seems to me the Jagers and NR are fighting each other for their own reasons and not really the revolution.
If the RA overthrows the empire, Esdese would be judged by the new government for her 'crimes against humanity':
1. The systematic execution and rape of subjugated civilian populations
2. The mass torture and execution of prisoners.
3. The support for Dr. Stylish's human experimentations

These are crimes that real life political leaders have been tried for after their regime was toppled. Saddam was tried on his crimes against humanity, his mass execution of his own population and political enemies, which happened before the US invaded Iraq and toppled his regime. Saddam was also tried by the new Iraqi government.
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Old 2013-03-29, 14:52   Link #2064
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
what qualifications do you have to make this assumption? are you a soldier?

Not trying to be a dick, just asking what is that makes you think you know better than I do. (again not being a dick, this is just a curios standard question)

and I never said anything about open combat for spies. SO you are saying NR who are Assassins are spies? is that what you are saying?
I have family members in the industry. But even if I didn't the majority of people would be able to see the bullshit in what your saying. It's like someone saying radiactive decay is a linear process. It's just no, they blatantly wrong, and anyone with a mild understanding would be able to call them out on that bull shit. This isn't some grey subject, your simply talking about something you have no real knowledge of.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:01   Link #2065
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I have family members in the industry. But even if I didn't the majority of people would be able to see the bullshit in what your saying. It's like someone saying radiactive decay is a linear process. It's just no, they blatantly wrong, and anyone with a mild understanding would be able to call them out on that bull shit. This isn't some grey subject, your simply talking about something you have no real knowledge of.
Point taken, I stated my opinion and have no further information to fight you with If you wish to call your self winner of this discussion we have shared please be my guest. I would really appreciate you not flying off the handle when your ideas and thoughts are challenged like a small child, you know nothing of me and you are acting as though I stated I knew anything about military in the first place. The question was not if NR are soldiers, the question was if they are at war with the Jagers. Both of you gave nothing to suggest they are.

I stand by my opinion.

NR and Jagers are in a conflict, but not war.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:06   Link #2066
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
If the RA overthrows the empire, Esdese would be judged by the new government for her 'crimes against humanity':
1. The systematic execution and rape of subjugated civilian populations
2. The mass torture and execution of prisoners.
3. The support for Dr. Stylish's human experimentations

These are crimes that real life political leaders have been tried for after their regime was toppled. Saddam was tried on his crimes against humanity, his mass execution of his own population and political enemies, which happened before the US invaded Iraq and toppled his regime. Saddam was also tried by the new Iraqi government.
I love this concept the winning side has the right to judge the losing side. It makes little sense to me. Like saying US judges Nazis for crimes they have committed. Does this make sense to you? because it makes little to me.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:16   Link #2067
Xion Valkyrie
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I love this concept the winning side has the right to judge the losing side. It makes little sense to me. Like saying US judges Nazis for crimes they have committed. Does this make sense to you? because it makes little to me.
As opposed to nobody getting punished for the crimes against humanity they have committed? Yes, the allies got away with their own war crimes, but that doesn't excuse the war crimes that the Nazis have committed. If there were some grand arbiter of justice floating around somewhere in the sky then wars wouldn't start in the first place.

In the case of Saddam it was his own people that tried him for his crimes. There's also been at least a little bit of progress made where the winning side punishes their own for war crimes, ie, Abu Ghraib.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:22   Link #2068
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
As opposed to nobody getting punished for the crimes against humanity they have committed? Yes, the allies got away with their own war crimes, but that doesn't excuse the war crimes that the Nazis have committed. If there were some grand arbiter of justice floating around somewhere in the sky then wars wouldn't start in the first place.

In the case of Saddam it was his own people that tried him for his crimes. There's also been at least a little bit of progress made where the winning side punishes their own for war crimes, ie, Abu Ghraib.
I still stay they cannot logically charger her with any "War crime" because she has not committed any "WAR" crimes. The acts she committed was during rebellions or about to be come rebellions. A rebellion is not a war, it is a violent act of resistance against a sovereign power. If you call that War we are done with this conversation lol

and you are talking about Allies got away with their own war crimes right? so why didn't anybody judge them? I know why, because nobody had the capability to do so is the only reason.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:24   Link #2069
Xion Valkyrie
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I still stay they cannot logically charger her with any "War crime" because she has not committed any "WAR" crimes. The acts she committed was during rebellions or about to be come rebellions. A rebellion is not a war, it is a violent act of resistance against a sovereign power. If you call that War we are done with this conversation lol
She'd be charged with 'crimes against humanity' like Saddam was.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:25   Link #2070
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
She'd be charged with 'crimes against humanity' like Saddam was.
Crimes against humanity? define that for me please

I am having trouble understanding what that is
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:29   Link #2071
Xion Valkyrie
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Crimes against humanity? define that for me please

I am having trouble understanding what that is
It's a real thing
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:44   Link #2072
OverSeer
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
fair enough, so according to this I am wrong and I just clearly thought about the "war" discussion we had, I think I was also wrong on that part. Perhaps you both are correct.
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Old 2013-03-29, 20:21   Link #2073
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
If the RA overthrows the empire, Esdese would be judged by the new government for her 'crimes against humanity':
1. The systematic execution and rape of subjugated civilian populations
Not sure if that concept even exists in AGK's world, but even so most of those things were done to towards enemy countries which the RA couldn't gave a damn about or were considered a threat to the PM and Emperor by law. She wasn't going around murdering random people, they were on orders by the most part. Even during the Ban tribe campaign she was told explicitly to make a example out of them. Doesn't mean she didn't enjoy the carnage, but it still fell under military orders. They could still pardon her as they likely did with other generals depending whether she helps them or removes herself from the war.

Quote:
2. The mass torture and execution of prisoners.
This basically the same as the above so I will leave it.

Quote:
3. The support for Dr. Stylish's human experimentations
This never happened, not even the PM knew what Stylish was doing. The manga implies that most human experimentation doesn't go beyond body modification and it is actually done with consent of the person (see Seryuu and the criminals in Stylish's army).
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Old 2013-03-29, 20:28   Link #2074
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Not sure if that concept even exists in AGK's world, but even so most of those things were done to towards enemy countries which the RA couldn't gave a damn about or were considered a threat to the PM and Emperor by law. She wasn't going around murdering random people, they were on orders by the most part. Even during the Ban tribe campaign she was told explicitly to make a example out of them. Doesn't mean she didn't enjoy the carnage, but they still fell under military orders. They could still pardon her as they likely did with other generals depending whether she helps them or removes herself from the war.



This basically the same as the above so I will leave it.
She is high enough up the command chain that she wouldn't be able to be pardoned with just the excuse that she was 'following orders'. Of course she can be pardoned for any number of reasons such as defecting or even turning against the PM but as of right now she hasn't done any of those things.


Quote:
This never happened, not even the PM knew what Stilyish was doing. The manga implies that most human experimentation doesn't go beyond body modification and it is actually done with consent of person (see Seryuu and the criminals in Stylishes army).
I'd really have to re-read those chapters but I got the impression that while Esdese/PM might not know what the results of his experiments were purposed for, they knew of his methods and were perfectly okay with it.
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Old 2013-03-29, 20:37   Link #2075
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
She is high enough up the command chain that she wouldn't be able to be pardoned with just the excuse that she was 'following orders'. Of course she can be pardoned for any number of reasons such as defecting or even turning against the PM but as of right now she hasn't done any of those things.
Considering that much of the RA are made of many former military personal, I doubt a whole lot of them are clean either. But yeah it entirely depends on her actions in the future.

Quote:
I'd really have to re-read those chapters but I got the impression that while Esdese/PM might not know what the results of his experiments were purposed for, they knew of his methods and were perfectly okay with it.
Just look from Ch 22-24/25.

The PM was because it could be used as a new weapon, but Esdese was actually disturbed and felt that it went too far. Believe or not she does have her own standards.
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Old 2013-03-30, 01:30   Link #2076
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
She is high enough up the command chain that she wouldn't be able to be pardoned with just the excuse that she was 'following orders'. Of course she can be pardoned for any number of reasons such as defecting or even turning against the PM but as of right now she hasn't done any of those things.
If you really try to inject "realism" into your thought experiment, this is where you go off the rails. Reality works exactly the other way round. You quoted Abu Ghraib, and there, those "higher up the chain of command" were purposely protected from prosecution. Only the little fish were tried as scapegoats. With your logic, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush would now be in prison as war criminals.

I'd suggest that we drop this entire train of thought. The story is not "realistic" and it's almost guaranteed that we're not going to see "war tribunals" or other stuff of this kind.
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Old 2013-03-30, 02:28   Link #2077
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
If you really try to inject "realism" into your thought experiment, this is where you go off the rails. Reality works exactly the other way round. You quoted Abu Ghraib, and there, those "higher up the chain of command" were purposely protected from prosecution. Only the little fish were tried as scapegoats. With your logic, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush would now be in prison as war criminals.

I'd suggest that we drop this entire train of thought. The story is not "realistic" and it's almost guaranteed that we're not going to see "war tribunals" or other stuff of this kind.
I didn't quote Abu Ghraib as a parallel to the story, I just used it as an example of how we have made some progress in the prosecution of war crimes even for the victors of a conflict. 20 Years ago those soldiers probably wouldn't be prosecuted at all. It also has very little to do with my 'thought experiment' as I only discussed Esdese being tried for her crimes in the context of the victory of the Revolution Army. In the situations where those in command were on the losing side of the conflict, they generally were tried and punished.

Anyways, if you don't want to bring in all this war tribunal stuff then she's probably going to die fighting NR. Pretty much all of the Jaegars as well as NR are going to die one way or another from the way the manga is progressing.
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Old 2013-03-30, 06:58   Link #2078
Kleeyook
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I don't think that there need to be any sophisticated discussion about this series. Just enjoy the show where the are getting what they did to others from the NR and Esdese should be enough.

Seriously, when some cannibalistic serial murderers don't get tried for his crime due to the loop hole in the law system while someone accused of theft got jailed for years, you realized there is something wrong in the world...

Just admit that you don't want Esdese to die because she's too hot!
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Old 2013-03-30, 07:08   Link #2079
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Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post

Just admit that you don't want Esdese to die because she's too hot!
well i admit that but at same time i cannot wait what happens when she die :3
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Old 2013-03-30, 08:07   Link #2080
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by OverSeer View Post
Point taken, I stated my opinion and have no further information to fight you with If you wish to call your self winner of this discussion we have shared please be my guest. I would really appreciate you not flying off the handle when your ideas and thoughts are challenged like a small child, you know nothing of me and you are acting as though I stated I knew anything about military in the first place. The question was not if NR are soldiers, the question was if they are at war with the Jagers. Both of you gave nothing to suggest they are.

I stand by my opinion.

NR and Jagers are in a conflict, but not war.
Fair enough, honestly I'm surprised when I argue against someone willing to understand their own lack of information, a far better trait than utter stuborness that I so commonly come across in internet forums like this one. Sorry I went off on your ideas just my reaction when someone talk about something they lack knowledge on. Though obviously everyone does that.
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