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Old 2013-07-02, 03:48   Link #2301
bones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Right, by brutally murdering everyone. Granted nothing will change the 'peaceful' way, but that's such a heroic method of doing things right?

And it's a fact that neither side is 'good'. The characters have admitted it themselves. There's only a lighter shade of grey. Trying to paint NR as knights in shining armour is doing a disservice to their character.
All, I remember was them admitting that they are not heroes, doesn't mean they aren't good people. I think that given how bad this situation is there's really no heroic solution anymore.

Last edited by bones; 2013-07-02 at 03:58.
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Old 2013-07-02, 04:00   Link #2302
maplehurry
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inb4KiraYamato
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Old 2013-07-02, 04:03   Link #2303
ShiroiRyu
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HAHAHAHA !
She is dead ... REALLY DEAD !
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Old 2013-07-02, 04:05   Link #2304
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I felt sad for the little puppy.
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Old 2013-07-02, 04:13   Link #2305
Excorsism
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I'm hoping all this slaughter stops soon too. I'd say it's about high time for Scarface and company to show up. Still hoping for the best for Wave and Kurome.
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Old 2013-07-02, 04:24   Link #2306
Kafriel
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
I felt sad for the little puppy.
Be at ease, it wasn't really a puppy, just a tool of massacre

As for the whole good/heroic convo, good people don't go for the kill before (at the very least) exhausting any other option...Tatsumi, who is one of the best characters in the manga, didn't hesitate to one-shot his friends' killer waaay back from chapter 1.

It just comes down to everyone's personal sense of justice, I guess.
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Old 2013-07-02, 04:26   Link #2307
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Right, by brutally murdering everyone. Granted nothing will change the 'peaceful' way, but that's such a heroic method of doing things right?

And it's a fact that neither side is 'good'. The characters have admitted it themselves. There's only a lighter shade of grey. Trying to paint NR as knights in shining armour is doing a disservice to their character.
Well, the moral in the story is that there's no good guys or bad guys and that there's always shade of grey in every actions in conflict...

It's something so commonly known, like the term "everything happens due to karma", there's absolutely nothing splendid in saying it. It's kinda true, but... fuck that.

Also, you wouldn't say that people who are handicapped since birth or meeting misfortunes are due to their bad karma they didn't know, right? There's always a limit when to use the term.

I hope everyone will do the same for this NR vs Jäger. It's good and all to have sympathy for both sides for their respective circumstance, but plz make more logically and morally correct decision, not just lazily lump them up together. Stylish, Esdese and Senryuu's actions are too much atrocious...
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Old 2013-07-02, 05:09   Link #2308
Tenzen12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
All, I remember was them admitting that they are not heroes, doesn't mean they aren't good people. I think that given how bad this situation is there's really no heroic solution anymore.
Jeagers also have plenty of good people. That's hardly defining difference between these groups.
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Old 2013-07-02, 05:21   Link #2309
Kafriel
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It all comes down to the government's actions. You can't trust the system! Maaaan...
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Old 2013-07-02, 05:31   Link #2310
bones
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Jeagers also have plenty of good people. That's hardly defining difference between these groups.
There are only two people that can actually be considered good and that is Wave and Bors.
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:14   Link #2311
evil_kenshin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
Bors.
even Bors himself claimed he did alot of evil stuff in the past so he wasn't any different than the rest.
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:16   Link #2312
Gundamx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Be at ease, it wasn't really a puppy, just a tool of massacre

As for the whole good/heroic convo, good people don't go for the kill before (at the very least) exhausting any other option...Tatsumi, who is one of the best characters in the manga, didn't hesitate to one-shot his friends' killer waaay back from chapter 1.

It just comes down to everyone's personal sense of justice, I guess.
what do you do with someone who torture your friends till they die?
give them to police that will not punish them?
(but punch you instead?)
+
NR job = same as hero in old rpg game > they need to kill enemy boss/s.
(while their regular army > only attack when they are sure to win)
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:23   Link #2313
Tenzen12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil_kenshin View Post
even Bors himself claimed he did alot of evil stuff in the past so he wasn't any different than the rest.
And that's it. Good people doing evil. In the end Seryuu wasn't different either (though her case is special)

NR is all about it.
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:41   Link #2314
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Nope. There is no implication of that, while opposite is true.
She willfully underwent body modification to be a better soldier before her mentor even died, I'm pretty sure she wasn't right in the head from the start.
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:42   Link #2315
Kafriel
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
What do you do with someone who torture your friends till they die?
You don't kill them without blinking, that's for sure. Leone had commented on it as well, his reaction was not that of an average person.
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:46   Link #2316
Soji
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
You don't kill them without blinking, that's for sure. Leone had commented on it as well, his reaction was not that of an average person.
True. Also if you remember his male friend comment with* That's feel good* or something along those line. Like what Tatsumi do that time was pretty normal for him.
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Old 2013-07-02, 07:28   Link #2317
Randrak42
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Well...the conversation has progressed enough while I was asleep >_>
Anyway, for me the thing about Bors is that...he was following orders. Now, that doesn't excuse his actions however you also have to understand that this was a man stuck between a bullet and his family and he chose to protect his family even if it meant committing unspeakable acts (which still haunted him). We don't know the full extent of his past, like why did he join the military and how did he get his Teigu but considering that he was likely already part of the military when at least got a kid it's reasonable to assume that they would not take it too kindly if a Teigu user just up and went "I don't want to do this anymore, I'm leaving". At best he'd be discharged only to find it hard to find another job to provide for his family as not only did he have a history of butchering people but he also had a disfigured and intimidating figure which would scare others away easily.
There's a lot of variables and issues surrounding Bors' situation, it's not as cut and dry as "He burned down a lot of villages and people, therefore he's evil."

Seryuu was a more straightforward situation though still a bit complicated. She's an extremist which is almost always a bad thing because extremists then to think that what they believe is right and everything else is wrong and should not exist. If you look at it one way you see a girl that wanted to be a defender of justice and fighter of evil, a girl that joined the police in order to protect others. However her views on the justice issue were the problem as she only saw things in absolutes, "Absolute Evil = Death" and "Absolute Good = Protection" and there was no middle ground with her.
It did not help that the mentor she admired and the scientist that helped her turned out to be twisted people that did unspeakable things for their own sick pleasure, either without her knowledge or she simply wasn't capable of admitting it to herself due to her admiration for them.
HOWEVER after the death of her mentor things changed, her mind became more twisted and unstable and she focused her justice not for protection of others but for revenge, she began doing it not for others but for her own selfish reasons. This is a very important thing that differentiates someone like Bors from Seryuu. One was doing what he did under orders but doing it to protect someone else (his family) while Seryuu was doing it all for herself (for revenge), she wasn't focusing on protecting others, just vengeance.

Again, that isn't to say that Bors was excused for his actions, not in the least but his reasons for committing such acts are much more easily excused than Seryuu's.

NR are also killers, they are not saints however they only kill people that have and are causing harm to innocent people, that or people that are after their lives. What they do is also for others and they target only people viewed as being on the extreme edge of the scale of evil to stop them from harming more innocent people. Is this different from Seryuu's views on things? Not really but then again Seryuu focused on the revenge aspect rather than the protection of the week and used justice as an excuse instead of a guideline.

Also she killed a lovable member of the MC group AND fed her body (along with Chelsea's) to her puppy...on-screen. THAT did not get her any fans in the least so the hate for her in easier to understand even if she was a tragic character all along.
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Old 2013-07-02, 07:54   Link #2318
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Right, by brutally murdering everyone. Granted nothing will change the 'peaceful' way, but that's such a heroic method of doing things right?

And it's a fact that neither side is 'good'. The characters have admitted it themselves. There's only a lighter shade of grey. Trying to paint NR as knights in shining armour is doing a disservice to their character.
I can agree with this, though I don't think Seryuu/Serieux (what's with the change in translation?) is that lighter shade of grey. I can sympathize with Bors... not so much with Seryuu and Dr. Stylish.
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Old 2013-07-02, 09:13   Link #2319
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
I fail to see how that justifies his actions, or are you saying that it's all right to commit atrocities so long as it's out of duty. Regarding Night Raid and Jaeger, it's like one group is chaotic good and the other is lawful evil.
Sorry, this is were you are wrong. The point here isn't to justify his actions but to prove whether he's fundamentally a "good" person or not. With a series like AKG where the moral is all over the place, you cannot judge someone over their actions but over their motives and inner thoughts. Yes, what he did deserves retribution from our society's standpoint, he might even look "evil" in the eyes of certain people. Hoewever, unlike real deal evil people, he did what he did unwillingly and regretted his action ... and all of that despite the fact that it was the best way to ensure the security of his family. And that's what makes him a really "good" person.

By using your standard of DnD classification, every single damn military related character from AGK, FMA, Gundam, and many others, as well as every soldier on earth that participated in a war are technically "evil" since they all ended the life of countless people to accomplish their duty at some point.
From the correct use of this classification however, you can't just place them in an exact fix point because Jaegers aren't flat unidirectional characters. Bors and Wave are in-between Lawful good and lawful neutral. Flying dude is unknown. Kurome's alignment is all over the place. And Esdese is also somewhat Lawful but too insane to be qualified as either good or evil, she's at best Lawful insane if something like that could exist. And Justice is an insane case of Lawful neutral ... who is technically a "good" person.

Someone here talked about how the nazi killed people out of duty. Sure, but some if not all of them would've been executed if they didn't follow the orders.
"But that doesn't justify their actions", yes that's right, just like how being the Nazi's enemy doesn't justify the allied country killing their men and raping their women. There's no good or evil in a war. In there, everyone does atrocities for the sake of their objective, whatever it may be.
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Old 2013-07-02, 09:27   Link #2320
Seitsuki
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Don't forget NR has been shown to brutally murder everyone involved around their targets as well, based on a 'they must have known what was going on, didn't leave, therefore must be complicit' mentality. What if they didn't know? What if they had no choice, having family etc to support as well? I mean look at Tatsumi's first encounter with NR, he easily could have gotten killed and there're probably plenty of similar people who bit it because of NR suddenly dropping in and ruining their day. Saying they kill only those who deserve to die is a stretch, simply considering the massive body count they pile up constantly.

Anyway regardless of all this nothing changes the fact that Esdese = best girl.
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