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Old 2012-07-24, 07:00   Link #1441
Destined_Fate
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The girls were green and still teenagers with no real combat experience. Even than they took out a great deal of BETA thanks to the Japanese TSF. Yuuya is a veteran simulation pilot, he should have damn well known to familiarize himself with the Japanese TSF since he's going to be piloting them for the foreseeable future. Yet instead he doesn't try to learn how to use it and instead blames the machine despite the fact that it is battle proven and has contributed much to Japan's survival.

Also, the girls "AREN'T" the best that Japan has and Japan doesn't have the resources to pimp out all their TSF's. It also makes zero sense to use the most up to date and current line TSFs for training exercises, simulations, or for pilots that are only meant to fight as a last resort. It's far cheaper and more practical to use older mecha, that aren't front liner material anymore, and save the best stuff to those that are proven warriors, not trainee's. Just like how at Boot Camp we weren't given the best gear around, much of our stuff was years old.

It seems you've forgotten that Yuuya still answers to Yui and she's in a position where she could easily have him severely disciplined for his rudeness yet she chooses not too. No one would care if she even had him locked up on a cell until he learns to behave just as long as he is no longer an issue to the teams success.

Just like had the Russians got to torture Yuuya they wouldn't have been punished at all since he was trespassing, the only reason they didn't was because Yui had the UN do her a favor and bail him out before they could get to work and even than the Russians weren't in trouble at all for mistreating Yuuya. Hell his own teammates were joking about what happened despite how serious it was, the culture there is just too different.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:02   Link #1442
DoomRavager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Here's the deal: While Yuuya is being a total prick, he is doing his job. Rudely, but still doing his job. He is there to pilot stuff and point out its flaws. That's what he's been doing. No, he doesn't need to "learn to fly" Japanese TSF, the entire idea is that the new joint TSF is going to be better, which means that he does need to point out the flaws in this TSF. If not, the team doesn't know what to improve.

Yui on the other hand, is a total bitch and endangering the entire project by ignoring the valid assessments of a test pilot (who, again, is brought in for the express purpose of pointing out stuff that doesn't work right) on the basis of... "well, we've trained to overcome it's flaws." Uhh... good for you, but what if you didn't need to train to overcome those flaws? What if you could instead use that training time to learn to survive and kill more BETA? What if you could just focus on killing BETA during the fight instead of keeping the engine running?

Isn't that the entire point of this project? To create a better TSF? Because what she spouted there is completely contradicting the entire purpose of the project.
It's not about more training time resulting in overcoming the flaws of the TSF. The TSF's design itself is already geared to overcome the flaw of its comparatively low-powered engines, so it controls in an almost completely different way to, say the Strike Eagle. The problem is that Yuuya isn't making use of the measures built in to the design the way he's supposed to, instead trying to get by mostly on thrusters like he's been doing with the machines with lots of power that he's been drilled on. The point of the project is to close the performance gap between the Shiranui and the other nations' latest offerings, but Yuuya's criticisms are hung up on issues that have already been taken into account by design as opposed to the onus being entirely on the pilot to get around.

Yes, he does need to "learn to fly" Japanese TSFs, because the improved Shiranui being 'better' isn't going to solve the mismatch in design philosophy and style of flight control that he's trying to pull. Though the Shiranui Nigata will be sporting new Active Eagle style shoulder thrusters and Terminator style waist thrusters, sort of adding to pure thruster power that can be used for maneuvering.

No, I don't think engine stalling has ever been brought up as a problem even with the Fubuki.



On a bit of a tangent, interestingly, to quote a certain anonymous who drew parallels to real-life planes.

Quote:
In order to make a craft more manuverable, the designer must make a air vehicle’s flight surfaces asymetric. European and chinese delta shaped fighters are an example. The Aircraft is made stable by aggressive robust flight by wire control system that actively maintain level flight electronically. American fighter such as F-15 are design to be symetric flight surface with redundent flight by wire manuver during dog fights. It is manuverable base on huge amount of engine thrust and wing surface to compensate its weight to thrust ratio. If a F-15 pilot get into a chinese jian-10, french Rafael, british eurofighter or swedish griphen he would feel exactly what bridges feel unstable and under powered. It doesn’t mean he is a bad pilot.

Lack of power in a japanese craft would also limit flight tactics. For example, you can’t climb to get away from your enemy because you would bleed air speed. Your advantage would be fighting horizontal due to your asymetric wing you can out turn a big F-15. F-15 on the other hand would fight horizontal and climb its way out of trouble due to high engine output and then dive on enemy with the sun behind him.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:05   Link #1443
Sylphic
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The professional military guys died as well.

Here's the thing: No, the machine isn't broken. It's parts all work. But it's flawed. It has an engine that can't maintain effective speeds, and is also limited in those speeds at that. That means you're constantly fighting your own vehicle to prevent your engine from stalling, dividing your attention between fighting BETA, and keeping the engine alive. Having to divide attention kills people.



Except that is what she tells him. Literally. "We can deal with it and if you can't you suck" while completely ignoring his valid complaints. Yes, he's being a rude prick about it, but him being a rude prick doesn't change that he's right. But what happens? Yui just ignores it. How is that attitude going to make a better TSF?

Here's the deal: While Yuuya is being a total prick, he is doing his job. Rudely, but still doing his job. He is there to pilot stuff and point out its flaws. That's what he's been doing. No, he doesn't need to "learn to fly" Japanese TSF, the entire idea is that the new joint TSF is going to be better, which means that he does need to point out the flaws in this TSF. If not, the team doesn't know what to improve.

Yui on the other hand, is a total bitch and endangering the entire project by ignoring the valid assessments of a test pilot (who, again, is brought in for the express purpose of pointing out stuff that doesn't work right) on the basis of... "well, we've trained to overcome it's flaws." Uhh... good for you, but what if you didn't need to train to overcome those flaws? What if you could instead use that training time to learn to survive and kill more BETA? What if you could just focus on killing BETA during the fight instead of keeping the engine running?

Isn't that the entire point of this project? To create a better TSF? Because what she spouted there is completely contradicting the entire purpose of the project.

Um dude, are you even watching the show or are you filling in your own narrative?

The unit he's using is a TRAINING unit. So of course it's not going to be as good as the state of the art F-22? Yui told him to deal with the training unit, because he needs to be able to use the training unit in order to test fly future models. He is NOT there to critique the known short comings of a TRAINING unit. It's like being trained in an F-22 and then complaining that the 2 seater training variant doesn't fly as well as the single seater combat variant. Of course people are going to ignore you for being stupid...

He's been placed in that unit to learn the Japanese combat doctrine and design approach so he can be the test pilot for the UPCOMING unit, the Shiranui.

Really, she isn't ignoring his complaints, it's more like they are unnecessary. She is pissed off at his unwillingness to learn how to use the machine as it was designed.

The entire point of the project is to create new TSFs yes. But Yui's point is when you are on the front line battling for life and death, go ahead and complain that your TSF isn't shiny enough with enough fly by wire controls, I'm sure someone will knock some sense into you. No, you take what you have and make do. Yui isn't sending him out to the front lines, he's only playing war games and he's STILL complaining.

He's nothing more than a spoiled brat, and Yui has every right to take him down a few pegs as his commanding officer.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:22   Link #1444
ksho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
It's not about more training time resulting in overcoming the flaws of the TSF. The TSF's design itself is already geared to overcome the flaw of its comparatively low-powered engines, so it controls in an almost completely different way to, say the Strike Eagle. The problem is that Yuuya isn't making use of the measures built in to the design the way he's supposed to, instead trying to get by mostly on thrusters like he's been doing with the machines with lots of power that he's been drilled on. The point of the project is to close the performance gap between the Shiranui and the other nations' latest offerings, but Yuuya's criticisms are hung up on issues that have already been taken into account by design as opposed to the onus being entirely on the pilot to get around.

Yes, he does need to "learn to fly" Japanese TSFs, because the improved Shiranui being 'better' isn't going to solve the mismatch in design philosophy and style of flight control that he's trying to pull. Though the Shiranui Nigata will be sporting new Active Eagle style shoulder thrusters and Terminator style waist thrusters, sort of adding to pure thruster power that can be used for maneuvering.

No, I don't think engine stalling has ever been brought up as a problem even with the Fubuki.



On a bit of a tangent, interestingly, to quote a certain anonymous who drew parallels to real-life planes.
I see it more as this...

Yuuya is test piloting a Japanese Mecha designed for the type of combat situations and terrains faced by the Japanese military. Rather than being objective by trying to understand the Japanese pilot mindset and evaluating the mecha based on it's strengths/weaknesses (like he was advised to do)....he's dismissing all of those design differences as flaws due to his personal hang up's with the Japanese people.

Spoiler for Tactical Surface Fighter Wiki:
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:26   Link #1445
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post
The unit he's using is a TRAINING unit. So of course it's not going to be as good as the state of the art F-22?
Yes, that's what Yuuya thought too. That's why he expressed a complete disbelief when Yui told him that... it IS as good as a state of the art Japanese TSF. Yui's direct words in response to the critique were "But the Fubuki is no more difficult to control than any other Japanese TSF."

Detailed reply later, but with the accusation of "filling in my own narrative" I wanted to point this out.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:28   Link #1446
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Yui didn't say it performs as well as state of the art TSF, she just said it wasn't harder to handle, debunking his belief that the difficulty of handling was from being shitty and trying to force him to rethink how he's supposed to be handling it.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:31   Link #1447
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Which makes sense, it's not an American TSF it's a Japanese one so it will handle differently even the more modern ones that aren't using outdated soft/hardware. It has nothing to do with being defective it's just how the Japanese pilot compared to how Americans pilot thus the TSF's have different specs and ways to be handled.

Yuuya just needs to understand how to pilot a Japaneses TSF correctly and stop trying to push his American experiences on it than blaming the machine because he's trying to make a Japanese TSF act like an American TSF.

Which is hilarious considering Yuuya's own situation.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:44   Link #1448
encia
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
The girls were green and still teenagers with no real combat experience. Even than they took out a great deal of BETA thanks to the Japanese TSF. Yuuya is a veteran simulation pilot, he should have damn well known to familiarize himself with the Japanese TSF since he's going to be piloting them for the foreseeable future. Yet instead he doesn't try to learn how to use it and instead blames the machine despite the fact that it is battle proven and has contributed much to Japan's survival.

Also, the girls "AREN'T" the best that Japan has and Japan doesn't have the resources to pimp out all their TSF's. It also makes zero sense to use the most up to date and current line TSFs for training exercises, simulations, or for pilots that are only meant to fight as a last resort. It's far cheaper and more practical to use older mecha, that aren't front liner material anymore, and save the best stuff to those that are proven warriors, not trainee's. Just like how at Boot Camp we weren't given the best gear around, much of our stuff was years old.
Factor in training logistic issue during a "total war". A nation can't afford multi-year training program when it needs all the available combat units on the field i.e. it's a baseline numbers game.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_A6M_Zero

"The Zero could not keep up with Allied aircraft in high speed maneuvers, and its low "never exceed speed" made it vulnerable in a dive"

Zeros can be deadly (i.e. excellent turn rate at low speeds) in the hands of a few experience pilots, but Allied aircraft's high speed maneuvers capability has better baseline performance for the majority of the pilots.

Real life Zero's characteristics mirrors Japanese TSF trainer' characteristics i.e. weak engine with emphasis on maneuverability with a sustained operational issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
It seems you've forgotten that Yuuya still answers to Yui and she's in a position where she could easily have him severely disciplined for his rudeness yet she chooses not too. No one would care if she even had him locked up on a cell until he learns to behave just as long as he is no longer an issue to the teams success.
Well, Yui seems to like difficult men like Yuuya i.e. hints for BSDM.

Yuuya techically still belongs to the US army.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Just like had the Russians got to torture Yuuya they wouldn't have been punished at all since he was trespassing, the only reason they didn't was because Yui had the UN do her a favor and bail him out before they could get to work and even than the Russians weren't in trouble at all for mistreating Yuuya. Hell his own teammates were joking about what happened despite how serious it was, the culture there is just too different.
What does this prove?
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:48   Link #1449
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In my opinion, while Yuuya should just learn to handle the thing I find his complains valid and can agree with most of them, other people can handle it fine is never a valid argument, having a high skill requirement that even an experienced test pilot can't handle just because he can't understand a certain mindset isn't what you want on mass produced machines while I believe it can be dealt with I don't think his opinions should just be discarded and holds its own weight.

Personally I don't think American TSFs are better than Japanese TSFs or the other way around, they are both good in their own right and in fact I prefer Japanese TSFs, I believe they have a higher skillcap and can bring out more potential with a good pilot not sure if this is true though just suspecting.

But what Yui said is utter nonsense to me, while I believe the Fubuki is a fine machine nothing she said actually supports that, what she said was since people actually used it in battle it must be fine, using that line of logic put anything that can do even a bit of damage in battle means it's fine, she could've done some actual explaining yet what I hear just sounds like JAPAN IS BEST!
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:50   Link #1450
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^

It isn't about Yuuya being experienced. The issue here is that he wants a Japanese TSF to pilot just the same as an American TSF. That's where he is failing compared to his comrades that aren't even Japanese yet they can pilot the Japanese TSF's just fine.

Yui's logic makes sense since all the Japanese TSF's pilot mostly the same because that's just how the Japanese prefer it. If Yuuya can't even get an outdated TSF to work properly than how's he going to handle the state of the art ones that pilot the same but just have new toys added on? Yui even tries to tell Yuuya what he's doing wrong and how to fix himself, advice he disregards completely and calls the Japanese TSF's pieces of shit despite the fact that they do work when USED AS INTENDED.

What's that supposed to mean exactly? The girls weren't even meant to fight so they weren't using Mecha that were state of the art but training ones. There's a huge difference between the training TSF's that girls used compared to the one that shows up at the end of Episode 2 that thrashes the BETA with ease.

Technical matters mean nothing over there as the Russians have shown.

It proves that even though this is a UN sanctioned gathering that the forces there can get away with still doing horrible things to each other. The UN needs Russia so if they tortured Yuuya they wouldn't have been punished and just told to release him. As long as he can still pilot than it's his own fault for wandering into Russian grounds at the base.

Besides, the Russians weren't going to permanently take him out of the picture which I'm sure Yui knows. If she was a spiteful racist bitch like many here are making her out to be than she could have easily just let the Russian teach Yuuya a "lesson" overnight before getting him released.

Instead Yui calls up the UN at the middle of the night, which isn't something that can be done for free, and gets them to release Yuuya before anything could happen.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:53   Link #1451
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Being willingly complicit in torture doesn't just make you a spiteful racist bitch: It makes you evil. Just saying.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:57   Link #1452
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But, again, the Russians has lost the vast majority of their country. They are down to only Kamchankta, little more.
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Old 2012-07-24, 07:59   Link #1453
Sylphic
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Originally Posted by SABER60069 View Post

But what Yui said is utter nonsense to me, while I believe the Fubuki is a fine machine nothing she said actually supports that, what she said was since people actually used it in battle it must be fine, using that line of logic put anything that can do even a bit of damage in battle means it's fine, she could've done some actual explaining yet what I hear just sounds like JAPAN IS BEST!
But that's not what she said.

What she said was, Japanese soldiers are using similar units to the Fubuki on the front line to great effect, even lowly skilled trainees can have the Fubuki under full control. It's not that it's fine because it was used in battle. It's that it was and is currently being used in battle to GREAT effect, i.e. Japan is not dead while using these as their backbone.

However, Yuuya can't even put up basic combat efficiency, had to be bailed out even under training conditions. Therefore, the problem lies with the pilot and not the machine?

What's wrong with her reasoning? Where is Japan is best? What you should be hearing from Yui is "Yuuya, you stink."
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:00   Link #1454
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post

It isn't about Yuuya being experienced. The issue here is that he wants a Japanese TSF to pilot just the same as an American TSF. That's where he is failing compared to his comrades that aren't even Japanese yet they can pilot the Japanese TSF's just fine.
They didn't do much except for the defensive circle formation. Real BETA tank requires thier rear end to be targeted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
What's that supposed to mean exactly? The girls weren't even meant to fight so they weren't using Mecha that were state of the art but training ones. There's a huge difference between the training TSF's that girls used compared to the one that shows up at the end of Episode 2 that thrashes the BETA with ease.
Depends on the BETA unit type e.g. Tank class vs other lesser BETA unit type.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:01   Link #1455
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Well, the training was a failure before they could do anything else. The rest of the team had to drop what they were doing to help Yuuya because he was isolated and had messed up severely. Yui even says that's fine that he couldn't use it right away but his attitude and blaming the machine when the Japanese had to make due with less years ago yet never complained is the real issue here.

Yuuya shows no appreciation for the deceased that gave him the opportunity to train without fear of being killed by BETA because of simple mistakes, the ones before him never had the luxury and learned on the go with mistakes or "it's the machine's fault" excuse meaning death. So it is insulting since Yui sees Yuuya as Japanese even if he's a second generation who hates the other part of himself.

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Being willingly complicit in torture doesn't just make you a spiteful racist bitch: It makes you evil. Just saying.
The Russians aren't exactly evil either, they just don't like the Japanese and don't see the need to treat them as equals or even human. It's easy to treat someone else as trash if you don't see them as human and just a slab of hateful meat. Remember that the Russians lost almost everything yet somehow the Japanese are still around and fighting despite being a tiny island. It breeds resentment and hate since why did the great and massive Russia fall yet tiny Japan didn't?
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:04   Link #1456
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Yuuya being experienced has everything to do with it, what I'm saying is if a machine reduces an experienced pilot back into a complete noob I say something is definitely wrong with it

Seriously doubt that's the case with how all Japanese likes it if that's the case Yuuya should fit right in, I'm pretty sure they're trained into working with that design whether they liked it or not is why they could handle it.

And what I'm hearing from Yui is that Japanese pilots are so good and Japanese TSFs are so awesome and yes that Yuuya sucks cause he is apparently not as good as other Japanese.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:08   Link #1457
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No it doesn't. Yuuya is only experienced using AMERICAN TSF's and AMERICAN tactics. Yet he knew full well that he's going to be using Japanese TSF's for the foreseeable future. Instead of adapting as is expected of a Soldier he blames the machine and refuses to try and figure out how to even use it.

Japanese TSF's don't handle like American ones, just because he's an Ace with American TSF's doesn't mean he'll still be any good in a Japanese TSF. He even says that he has no experience with it which is why Yui ordered he practice in one so he isn't a complete noob when he gets put in a more up to date test model.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:14   Link #1458
encia
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No it doesn't. Yuuya is only experienced using AMERICAN TSF's and AMERICAN tactics. Yet he knew full well that he's going to be using Japanese TSF's for the foreseeable future. Instead of adapting as is expected of a Soldier he blames the machine and refuses to try and figure out how to even use it.

Japanese TSF's don't handle like American ones, just because he's an Ace with American TSF's doesn't mean he'll still be any good in a Japanese TSF. He even says that he has no experience with it which is why Yui ordered he practice in one so he isn't a complete noob when he gets put in a more up to date test model.
Yuuya is just doing his job i.e. criticise the hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SABER60069 View Post
Yuuya being experienced has everything to do with it, what I'm saying is if a machine reduces an experienced pilot back into a complete noob I say something is definitely wrong with it

Seriously doubt that's the case with how all Japanese likes it if that's the case Yuuya should fit right in, I'm pretty sure they're trained into working with that design whether they liked it or not is why they could handle it.

And what I'm hearing from Yui is that Japanese pilots are so good and Japanese TSFs are so awesome and yes that Yuuya sucks cause he is apparently not as good as other Japanese.
If "Japanese pilots are so good and Japanese TSFs are so awesome", then they should not have participate in a joint R&D TSF program.

Yuuya practically giving hints for the F22 TSF's performance details.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:15   Link #1459
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Originally Posted by SABER60069 View Post
Yuuya being experienced has everything to do with it, what I'm saying is if a machine reduces an experienced pilot back into a complete noob I say something is definitely wrong with it

Seriously doubt that's the case with how all Japanese likes it if that's the case Yuuya should fit right in, I'm pretty sure they're trained into working with that design whether they liked it or not is why they could handle it.

And what I'm hearing from Yui is that Japanese pilots are so good and Japanese TSFs are so awesome and yes that Yuuya sucks cause he is apparently not as good as other Japanese.
Then you missed the point. It has nothing to do with Japanese being superior or awesome and everything to do with the experience that Yuuya does have not being entirely applicable because the fundamental primary method of maneuvering the TSFs is different from what he's used to. The thrusters are weaker, but it doesn't rely heavily on the thrusters for flight control, yet Yuuya's trying to fly it as if it does and criticizes the thrusters for not being powerful enough to control the TSF. So she's not saying what you think she's saying "oh our imperial pilots are so skilled because they can do cool stuff with inferior designs", she's just saying "look they can control it, the control issues aren't from the design being inferior, just different, and you're not taking that into account".

Presumably if you took a Japanese pilot who's only ever used to the Fubuki and Shiranui and shoved them in something like the Strike Eagle that Yuuya has most of his experience with, they'd have some control issues at the start too because they just handle completely differently.

Note: different. Not superior. Yui's just pointing out that other people who understand how it's supposed to be used are perfectly capable of controlling the JP TSFs, debunking Yuuya's insistence he can't control it because the machine is terrible. He's just doing it all wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by encia View Post
If "Japanese pilots are so good and Japanese TSFs are so awesome", then they should not have participate in a joint R&D TSF program.

Yuuya practically giving hints for the F22 TSF's performance details.
The design philosophy is not necessarily inferior in and of itself, but the fact is that the technology used in the Japanese domestic 3rd generation TSFs are heavily outdated owing to the fact that theirs was the first 3rd Generation machine to be developed, in secret, behind everyone's backs. Obviously everyone else who developed their next generation TSFs later makes use of newer, more advanced technologies and hence have superior performance. That is why they need to develop a new TSF to replace the Shiranui, to close the performance gap. It's not because Japanese designer mindset is directly inferior to that of the F-22's developers, it's just that technology marches on. The eventual Shiranui II does still follow the idea of having sensitive supplementary control surfaces for extra maneuverability control, on top of adding extra thrusters in the shoulders and waist, and it performs well up to standard.
And the point is not that "Japanese pilots are so good and Japanese TSFs are so awesome", as stated earlier.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-07-24 at 08:32.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:22   Link #1460
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No Yuuya isn't doing his job. He knows the TSF is outdated, it's a training one. His job is to adapt and learn how to use it so he's prepared for the test unit. Instead he doesn't even try and is dead set that the Japanese TSFs are inferior, shitty, and that it isn't his fault he can't make it work but the machine's fault for being Japanese and not American.
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