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Old 2012-07-24, 08:31   Link #1461
encia
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Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
Then you missed the point. It has nothing to do with Japanese being superior or awesome and everything to do with the experience that Yuuya does have not being entirely applicable because the fundamental primary method of maneuvering the TSFs is different from what he's used to. The thrusters are weaker, but it doesn't rely heavily on the thrusters for control, yet Yuuya's trying to fly it as if it does. So she's not saying what you think she's saying "oh our imperial pilots are so skilled because they can do cool stuff with inferior designs", she's just saying "look they can control it, the control issues aren't from the design being inferior, just different".

Presumably if you took a Japanese pilot who's only ever used to the Fubuki and Shiranui and shoved them in something like the Strike Eagle that Yuuya has most of his experience with, they'd have some control issues at the start too because they just handle completely differently.

Note: different. Not superior. Yui's just pointing out that other people who understand how it's supposed to be used are perfectly capable of controlling the JP TSFs, debunking Yuuya's insistence he can't control it because the machine is terrible. He's just doing it all wrong.
Mechanical based movement would be inferior (2D direction change) to high performance thruster based movement (sustained 3D movement with in-flight direction change).

Due to the mechanical nature, mechanical based movement also has limits with the direction change with movement capability.

High performance thruster based movement approach is closer to Gundam's with GN drives or any other high tech Sci-Fi flying tanks e.g. Startrek's Federation Tactical Fighters.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:35   Link #1462
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So? That topic has nothing to do with this. Yuuya isn't complaining that mechanical based flight movement control is inferior to thruster control, the problem is that he's not even making use of the mechanical control surfaces in the first place so he's focusing only on the thrusters being too weak and almost completely ignoring the mechanical aspect of control altogether. He can control the TSF just fine when he starts actually taking this into account.

For what it's worth part of the XFJ program does involve swapping out the engines for more powerful ones and adding extra thrust nozzles on other parts of the TSF, so the Japanese do understand the advantages of having better thruster control.
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Old 2012-07-24, 08:57   Link #1463
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
So? That topic has nothing to do with this. Yuuya isn't complaining that mechanical based flight movement control is inferior to thruster control, the problem is that he's not even making use of the mechanical control surfaces in the first place so he's focusing only on the thrusters being too weak and almost completely ignoring the mechanical aspect of control altogether.
.
Spoiler for EP4:


Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
For what it's worth the XFJ program does involve swapping out the engines for more powerful ones and adding extra thrust nozzles on other parts of the TSF, so the Japanese do understand the advantages of having better thruster control.
At this point in time, they are still working on it.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:01   Link #1464
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But Japanese TSFs do hit and run high-speed tactics. The VN doesn't have them sitting around forming up defensive circles, they jump in and out and jink all over the place. They had to set one up in episode 4 because Yuuya couldn't control his machine right and ended up standing around and getting surrounded, so the rest of them had to clear a space and help him out.

Even if pure high power thrust vectoring was proven to be superior to mechanical aerodynamic control, proper use of said mechanical aerodynamic control would still have let him properly maintain control and maneuver and hence do much better than he was doing without making use of it at all. Except that he didn't use it and blamed the machine instead of how he was handling it.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-07-24 at 09:14.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:16   Link #1465
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
But Japanese TSFs do hit and run high-speed tactics. The VN doesn't have them sitting around forming up defensive circles, they jump in and out and jink all over the place. They had to set one up in episode 4 because Yuuya couldn't control his machine right and ended up standing around and getting surrounded, so the rest of them had to clear a space and help him out.
EP2 doesn't show fast 3D omni-directional movements i.e. rewatch EP2 06:29 and that's for the professional army. It's like a copy of slow Mechwarrior with jump thrusters not F15 TSF.

The keyword is "sustained" and EP2's Japanese TSFs doesn't show that.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:17   Link #1466
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I really don't understand what Yui is saying, they're both acting like pricks but at least Yuuya is saying stuff from a technical point, how she brings out how their pilots can handle it doesn't explain a thing and the fact that most of them got destroyed doesn't help it.

And I'm not saying that's what she says but what it sounds like I think she is really trying to say the Fubuki is fine which I agree with but that she's not doing a very good job at it
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:20   Link #1467
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
EP2 doesn't show fast 3D omni-directional movements i.e. rewatch EP2 06:29 and that's for the professional army. It's like a copy of slow Mechwarrior with jump thrusters not F15 TSF.

The keyword is "sustained" and EP2's Japanese TSFs doesn't show that.
If you're going to talk about Japanese TSFs not being able to pull fast 3D movements (they can, by the way, when used right), you could at least have the courtesy to provide an example that uses an actual fully domestically developed 3rd generation Japanese TSF as opposed to a horribly outdated bulky 1st generation clunker developed originally by the Americans, designed based around heavy armor instead of maneuverability, the only "Japanese" modifications to which were reinforced joints and ability to carry swords. And the Royal Guard variant that just tries to make the thing a bit lighter but doesn't really overcome the limitations of the frame.

Oh, but they haven't really animated anything like that yet.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:24   Link #1468
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
If you're going to talk about Japanese TSFs not being able to pull fast 3D movements (they can, by the way), you could at least have the courtesy to provide an example that uses an actual fully domestically developed 3rd generation Japanese TSF as opposed to a horribly outdated bulky 1st generation clunker developed originally by the Americans, designed based around heavy armor instead of maneuverability, the only "Japanese" modifications to which were reinforced joints and ability to carry swords.

Oh, but they haven't really animated anything like that yet.
Carefull with introducing the game's story into the anime's story.

Spoiler for EP2:
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:26   Link #1469
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...yes, so? How is that a Japanese-designed domestic TSF? That's an American design that didn't make mobility a priority and when the Japanese adopted it all they did was give it sword power.

And the thrusters failing was probably a product of being hit pretty damn hard, not stalling due to speed issues or similar, though I'll allow that it's pretty vague. I don't think engines stalling from lack of power has ever been brought up as an issue at any time in any place in the franchise anyway.

By the way, this has nothing to do with the game's story.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-07-24 at 09:37.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:35   Link #1470
encia
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Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
...yes, so? How is that a Japanese-designed domestic TSF? That's an American design that didn't make mobility a priority and when the Japanese adopted it all they did was give it sword power.
It's field by the Imperial Japanese Army.

The whole point of Project Prominence and the anime's story is for "The Next Generation TSF Technology Development Plan".


Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
And the thrusters failing was probably a product of being hit pretty damn hard, not stalling due to speed issues or similar, though I'll allow that it's pretty vague. I don't think engines stalling has ever been brought up as an issue at any time in any place in the franchise anyway.
Yuuyu's engine statement indicates otherwise.


Yuuyu: The main engine lacks power. It's only effective at certain speeds which the engine has difficulty maintaining.


In another words, the main engine is useless outside a certain speeds and has difficulty maintaining it at the prescribe level.




Wonderful Japanese piloting skills which resulted in casualties.



Where's the sustained hit-and-run omnidirectional fast 3D movements?

PS; Sorry, if I sound like the Yuuyu character.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
By the way, this has nothing to do with the game's story.
I haven't read the manga nor played console game.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-26 at 20:39.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:35   Link #1471
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Here's my main point though: While he indeed does blame the machine, that doesn't change that an engine that risks stalling unless you keep a really tight attention on it is an objective flaw in a machine. Regardless of his blatant bias, this is a flaw that should be addressed, not ignored. And yes, this does fall under the "no more difficult to control" part, which means that according to Yui, all Japanese mechs suffer from this.
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:36   Link #1472
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It's really an issue with the different specs of American and Japanese TSFs.
For example the European EF-2000 has a similar design approach to Japanese TSFs, making even Japan interested in introducing them into thier ranks.

EDIT: Okay, I somehow missed the stall part, yeah that really is an issue (heck this thread get's new posts FAST!)
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:39   Link #1473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
But Japanese TSFs do hit and run high-speed tactics. The VN doesn't have them sitting around forming up defensive circles, they jump in and out and jink all over the place. They had to set one up in episode 4 because Yuuya couldn't control his machine right and ended up standing around and getting surrounded, so the rest of them had to clear a space and help him out.
Actually in episode 2 a squadron (platoon?) of Japanese TSFs were shown to have formed a defensive circle. Could they not control their machines either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
For what it's worth part of the XFJ program does involve swapping out the engines for more powerful ones and adding extra thrust nozzles on other parts of the TSF, so the Japanese do understand the advantages of having better thruster control.
Then isn't Yuuya spot-on in his criticisms?

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No Yuuya isn't doing his job. He knows the TSF is outdated, it's a training one. His job is to adapt and learn how to use it so he's prepared for the test unit. Instead he doesn't even try and is dead set that the Japanese TSFs are inferior, shitty, and that it isn't his fault he can't make it work but the machine's fault for being Japanese and not American.
As much as I think Yuuya is generally in the right in his interactions with Yui, I think this is a correct criticism. The U.S. is helping Japan improve their TSFs with American know-how, but at least from what we've seen, the Japanese have no desire to change their tactics. I think that's a mistake, but it's their choice. Therefore, Yuuya needs to understand that he is there to improve a Japanese TSF to best fulfill Japanese tactical doctrines/roles and he should adapt accordingly. He might not like it, but that's his mission.

As a side note, even though Yui outranks Yuuya, its not clear that she has any real authority to discipline him. At least in our world, military personnel assigned to UN missions generally remain under the direct command of their own national commander. Yui could appeal to Yuuya's U.S. superior to discipline him, but she would lack the authority to discipline him herself.

Don't know about the Muv Luv world, but really, if there's one thing quintessentially American about deploying forces, its that American troops are never subject to host country or international jurisdiction/laws.

Last edited by Trajan; 2012-07-24 at 10:13. Reason: spelling
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Old 2012-07-24, 09:39   Link #1474
DoomRavager
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
It's field by the Imperial Japanese Army.
Spoiler for EP2:
Yes, but it's a two generation old American design that has long been left behind by the 3rd generation machine that the XFJ project is attempting to further improve upon, not to mention all the other 2nd and 3rd generation TSFs that have been developed since then, and fielded by the IJA or not it doesn't have anything to do with Japanese design philosophy and the control issues that Yuuya is having with the Fubuki. So I fail to see why you brought it up in a discussion of Japanese TSF designs.

Quote:
Yuuyu's engine statement indicates otherwise.
Then sure, perhaps it is an issue after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Actually in episode 2 a squadron (platoon?) of Japanese TSFs were shown to have formed a defensive circle. Could they not control their machines either?
They were using far outdated and much bulkier, slower, less maneuverable machines than the Fubuki and Shiranui, that were built based around entirely different design philosophies. That is, heavier armor as opposed to better mobility. They weren't designed by the Japanese either, it was just a slight modification of the first ever TSF design invented by the US. Fine control or not, they're far more poorly suited to high speed maneuvers. When we're talking about fast hit and run we're referring to the more up to date models that do focus on mobility. Of course, they would alter formation and tactics based on the situation, but later generations focus more on the ability to maneuver around at high speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Then isn't Yuuya spot-on in his criticisms?
He was right in that the thruster power wasn't up to scratch compared to what he's used to, but he was wrong in assuming that the machine could not be properly controlled as a result of said poor thruster power. Mobility was obviously improved further with the introduction of better engines and more thruster nozzles through the XFJ program, but control was not as poor as Yuuya was trying to make it out to be so he could dump all the responsibility on the machine.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-07-24 at 10:04.
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Old 2012-07-24, 10:18   Link #1475
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Some of you are forgetting that the TSF Yuuya is using is severely outdated. Yui says the others operate in the same "way". It's naive to take what she has said and assume that the Japanese never update their new generation TSF's with new soft/hardware or correct any "defects". It's just how they're used to piloting that way and to them it isn't a flaw of it being over sensitive at all thus there's nothing that needs to be fixed in that area.

It also shows the differences between Yuuya and Yui. Yuuya wants to force the TSF to be aggressive and rush in head first(Despite not even understanding his own machine), Yui meanwhile wants to use the TSF in a less direct approach without forcing the TSF to do what it was never meant to do in the first place.

The Japanese could have easily developed their TSF's to be just like the American ones, however they didn't want to do that. So obviously Yuuya failed because he tried an American approach to a Japanese Machine.

It's also pointless for Yuuya to whine about the outdated thrusters and the such since he already knows the machine is outdated and lacks the power of modern machines. The test models obviously wont have that issue however they will still require that Yuuya pilot them as they are intended to be piloted and not try and force his American piloting experience on it.
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Old 2012-07-24, 10:44   Link #1476
encia
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Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
Yes, but it's a two generation old American design that has long been left behind by the 3rd generation machine that the XFJ project is attempting to further improve upon, not to mention all the other 2nd and 3rd generation TSFs that have been developed since then, and fielded by the IJA or not it doesn't have anything to do with Japanese design philosophy and the control issues that Yuuya is having with the Fubuki. So I fail to see why you brought it up in a discussion of Japanese TSF designs.
.
No, you missed the mainline "on the field" Japanese TSF results and the Project Prominence's existance.

The control issue is linked to maneuverability bias vs weak engines ratio.

Spoiler for EP04:



Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
Then sure, perhaps it is an issue after all.
The purpose of Project Prominence and for Yuuya to get a harem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Some of you are forgetting that the TSF Yuuya is using is severely outdated. Yui says the others operate in the same "way". It's naive to take what she has said and assume that the Japanese never update their new generation TSF's with new soft/hardware or correct any "defects". It's just how they're used to piloting that way and to them it isn't a flaw of it being over sensitive at all thus there's nothing that needs to be fixed in that area.
You missed Project Prominence's existance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
It also shows the differences between Yuuya and Yui. Yuuya wants to force the TSF to be aggressive and rush in head first(Despite not even understanding his own machine), Yui meanwhile wants to use the TSF in a less direct approach without forcing the TSF to do what it was never meant to do in the first place.

The Japanese could have easily developed their TSF's to be just like the American ones, however they didn't want to do that. So obviously Yuuya failed because he tried an American approach to a Japanese Machine.
In real life, Japan haven't designed and released it's own F15E nor F22 level fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
It's also pointless for Yuuya to whine about the outdated thrusters and the such since he already knows the machine is outdated and lacks the power of modern machines. The test models obviously wont have that issue however they will still require that Yuuya pilot them as they are intended to be piloted and not try and force his American piloting experience on it.
So, what's the purpose of Project Prominence again? If the JFST prototype is prefect why get involved with Project Prominence?

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-24 at 11:09.
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Old 2012-07-24, 11:43   Link #1477
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I am locking this thread until we make a determination about what to do about all the many topics that are included within (some of which are fairly off-topic and better suited to other existing threads). Please wait for a decision to be made.
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Old 2012-07-24, 18:43   Link #1478
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Okay, the sub-forum is now created. Please note, though, that there are strict rules about posting information from the Muv-Luv games in Total Eclipse anime threads, namely it's forbidden. That being said, there are now a number of other threads where this discussion can go instead, so it should be easier to direct the discussion accordingly. We will be observing a strict no spoiler policy for this show, including automatic one-day bans on the first offence, so please take time now to review the Spoiler Policy for this sub-forum. Also, there is information in each thread about what is on-topic/allowed. If additional threads are needed beyond what is here now, please request it.

Thanks and have fun!


Edit: Also, I should note. There are three speculation threads:

This way people can decide how much "spoilers" they want. Also, you can use the Q&A thread if all you want is a simple answer to a question.
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Old 2012-07-24, 18:56   Link #1479
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Woo, the Muv Luv series got its own sub-forum. Awesome! And thanks. :3
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Old 2012-07-24, 19:05   Link #1480
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Awesome! We've finally got our own sub-forum.

Now it will be easier to keep track of the series.
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