AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Total Eclipse/Muv-Luv

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-07-25, 10:43   Link #1501
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyat View Post
Total Eclipse takes place in the same year as Alternative and by that time Hunters were equipped with F22. So the tests of YF22 were already a thing of the past.
You're forgetting the dashes. And I'm aware that ATSF is a thing of the past - I was drawing parallels between the current situation and organisation to what happened in the ATSF project. Yuuya was assigned to the YF-22 test team, which operated under the umbrella of the ATSF project; in Alaska, he's assigned to Argos Flight, who are attached to the XFJ project, which is under the umbrella of Project PROMINENCE.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 10:45   Link #1502
Nyat
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Not sucha genious anymore, right ?
Then maybe they should just send someone who is a pro with assault rifles?
Quote:
You're forgetting the dashes.
Yeah, I've noticed that by the time I've completed my post. Yet I've decided to publish it...didn't want to waste it.
Nyat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 10:48   Link #1503
Trajan
Six Shooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
Your comparison is not proper, let's say they are testing guns and yuuya is one of the best gun testers in the world and normally works with snipper rifles; he then is transferred to a assault rifle testing project, then he starts complaining about the caliber and accuracy of assault rifles and how they are inferior to sniper riffles. Not sucha genious anymore, right ?
Except of course, this project is essentially "make an assault rifle with some of the capabilities of a sniper rifle" so it makes Yuuya's experience even more valuable.
Trajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 10:52   Link #1504
shaga
ヒスイ刈り取り機
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Personal stake or not, Yui was rude to him to start with.
well no ofense
im not sure yui whos started being rude

after all i think yuuya the first one who started
why?
well hope this explain

in XFJ project yuuya has choosen to pilot captain unit but he's refuse(ofc this one have reason)

yuuya prespective:
>,after looking teresa behavior yuuya just want to get along with her since he was a main pilot in this project

yui prespective:
>,change position without clear reason,make troble for mechanic, BUT thanks for vincent there is no prob
>,disobey an order (i think this one fatal after look yui history who came from imperial army. Maybe yui think an order is absolute and maybe this is some reason who make her disappoint with him)

after small talk with yui in coridor event

>,yuuya prespective:
after we know he wont people think he is japanesse ofc his behavior is normal then he refuse to get along with japanesse people
BUT i think yuuya know that too

>,yui prespective:
well i'm not sure this one right or not but maybe this one started everything
shaga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 11:07   Link #1505
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyat View Post
Yeah, I've noticed that by the time I've completed my post. Yet I've decided to publish it...didn't want to waste it.
There's always the edit button

@shaga:

I disagree. Yui could have handled the initial meeting a lot better, particularly as Yuuya, from his perspective, hadn't really done anything significantly wrong. But then Yui had to go "I can't believe my country's future rests with someone like you" at him.

The whole problem is that they could have stopped at any time, but once the ball started rolling neither of them wanted to stop sniping at each other.

Then again, this is the prelude to hot angry sex, so I suppose we can live with that.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 12:32   Link #1506
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Except of course, this project is essentially "make an assault rifle with some of the capabilities of a sniper rifle" so it makes Yuuya's experience even more valuable.
Agreed, in reality the project is to make a better gun overall as yuuya was "hired" to test guns, as such he has to learn the shortcomings of both types of weapons, he was not doing so. japanese tsfs are optimized for meele for reasons that are outside the scope of this topic , while usa ones are optimized for ranged combat.
maximilianjenus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 12:56   Link #1507
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Note that the word she uses for "you" is not the usual "omae/anta/anata", but "kisama", which is not only considered rude, it's used to show contempt for the person you're addressing.

Let's be very clear on this. Yuuya did not fire the first shot in rudeness. He was heading into bragging territory, no doubt, but that's very much part and parcel of American fighter pilot culture/mentality. It was Yui who started being rude.
One thing, Wild Goose. As far as I know the use of "kisama" in japanese military is common practice. That's how a superior addresses those with lower ranks, without exception.

"kisama" is rude but it's only an offense when you use it to imply a superiority that you are not supposed to have. In military if you are a superior you can use "kisama" without any problem. It's not being arrogant to claim you are superior when you are, not using it could actually be seen as a sign of weakness and the soldier might disrespect you.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 12:57   Link #1508
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
Agreed, in reality the project is to make a better gun overall as yuuya was "hired" to test guns, as such he has to learn the shortcomings of both types of weapons, he was not doing so. japanese tsfs are optimized for meele for reasons that are outside the scope of this topic , while usa ones are optimized for ranged combat.
I thought I'd covered that in that long ass post on the last page. Both of them are correct and wrong at the same time.

Yuuya is being an ass who doesn't like the fact that the Fubuki doesn't handle like American TSFs and is over sensitive, but he can recognise that he's being an ass and is attempting to get used to it. Let's not forget he's only had a few days to get used to an entirely brand new (to his POV) TSF that handles completely differently from American TSFs because of a different tactical doctrine.

At the same time he also raises a valid point with regard to the Fubuki's engine; underpowered engines that are only effective at a speed the engine cannot maintain consistently are not a good thing to have, as evidenced by his stall and crash early in Ep 4. He is doing his job: he is trying to get used to the TSF, he admits that it performs exactly how the end users want it to perform, and the real problem is that he's not used to it.

Yui dismisses this valid concern with the statement: "It's nothing different from other Japanese TSFs. It works for us, so your argument is invalid."

Which may not be the case - just because something is accepted practice and has been done for a long time may not mean it's the best practice. Consider IRL WW2 IJN, which practiced severe training with high washout rates, kept aces on the front lines, choose fighters that were twitchy and difficult to master, and over optimised for turning rate - and compare them with the USN, which practiced balanced training, rotated its aces back to the rear to train new pilots and share knowledge, and chose fighters that were easy to fly and master, and balanced in most respects.

The USN won the Pacific War, by the way.

Like I've said in other posts, Yui and Yuuya need to walk a balancing act. As a test pilot for a Japanese design, Yuuya needs to ensure that the end product will fit the criteria specified by the end user, which is represented by Yui; to do this he needs to understand Japanese TSF doctrine and get a handle on the XFJ testbed (that Shiranui rolled out at the end of the ep). At the same time, being an experienced test pilot, he also needs to voice out any issues he finds, and things which in his opinion need to be addressed.

On her part, Yui serves as the custodian of Japanese interests: it's her job to make sure that the final result of XFJ fits the criteria that the Japanese want - not what Boening wants to give them. At the same time, she also has to be willing to listen to any issues raised by Yuuya, because he is the test pilot.

Note that part of the upgrades to the Shiranui testbed that Yuuya pilots involved the installation of more powerful main engine and jump units to augment the control surfaces - a tacit admission of Yuuya's point on engine power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
One thing, Wild Goose. As far as I know the use of "kisama" in japanese military is common practice. That's how a superior addresses those with lower ranks, without exception.

"kisama" is rude but it's only an offense when you use it to imply a superiority that you are not supposed to have. In military if you are a superior you can use "kisama" without any problem. It's not being arrogant to claim you are superior when you are, not using it could actually be seen as a sign of weakness and the soldier might disrespect you.
Hmmm. Any source? Going by what I've seen in Rescue Wings - both the Live Action adaptation and Anime, which were made with JASDF cooperation - the only time I recall a junior officer being addressed as "kisama" was when, in the anime, Uchida fucked up badly. Throughout his interactions with his superior officers - including Hongo, who didn't care much for him at all - I don't recall them addressing him with the term "kisama". Neither was it used on his distaff counterpart in the Live Action adaptation.

Consider, however, a US context. Drill Instructors tend to refer to most recruits as maggots and all sorts of deragatory terms. Once Basic/Boot Camp is done, however, all of that is locked away, and usually saved for when the person in question has screwed the pooch.

I can't say for Japanese military culture, but my understanding of Western military culture (particularly American/British) is that you get better mileage out of your troops if you earn their respect and aren't rude to them - or belittle them - on a daily basis. A sailor will work harder for a Captain who's earned his trust and respect. It's a two-way street.

Hmmm. Fridge brilliance, maybe? Yui thinks she's doing nothing wrong - in her mind, she's just following her own military's cultural mores - but Yuuya feels she's being insulting to him, and hence his display of Parenthetical Swearing and exaggerated military formality in Episode 4. What we're having here is a failure to communicate.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 13:24   Link #1509
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well I can point you to a source that was my very first introduction to japanese grammar.

It's "Reiko-chan's Japanse for Anime Lovers", it's so old I could even consider it ancient.

http://mercury.pr.erau.edu/~buckaleb....htm#Lesson_30

Quote:
Kisama also means "you." This word can be used to refer to a very close male friend or someone you hate, like an enemy, opponent, and so on. It can also be used in a troop, army, navy, air force and marine so on. Strange? Well, it's not my fault, you know,,,
It's really basic stuff but Reiko Sakaguchi is actually Japanese so I guess she knows what says.

At any rate I always remembered her "lesson" whenever I heard military people use "kisama" that's why I still remember it.
It is used frequently in Muv Luv Unlimited and Alternative by the way. And nobody felt offended by it.


At any rate this is one of the things that would probably get lost in translation, so if we really wanted to nitpick she never actually said "kisama" to Yuuya.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 14:59   Link #1510
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
I'm just going to take one of the scenes discussed above, and make a hypothetical guess on Yui's reactions.

Yui saw fault in Yuuya jumping into the firing range of Laser class BETA, and wanted to point out to Yuuya about it. Furthermore, his final ambush was a forced melee combat which succeeded initially, but got turned around and most certainly would've 'game over' if his partner did not shoot the enemy first. Neither of these are situation you'll ever want to face against the BETA. So it would be safe to assume that Yui had intended to scold him sternly, or at least be very clear about the mistakes Yuuya has made during the mock combat.

Yuuya was obviously in a good mood after winning the battle. I personally think that Yui would've put the scoldings in a much calmer way, if Yuuya had not did a 180 degrees in mood the moment he saw her. That probably sent an instant dislike up her spine and dispelled whatever gentleness she wanted to put in her words. Next he held his chin high, and started bragging, not even looking at his superior. That might be just the anime way of putting it, but there is such obvious disrespect in his tone and attitude that, Yui thinks that there's absolutely for her to take it easy on Yuuya, ESPECIALLY since she's a woman, and shoots him down like a bug. One could argue that there's no need for insults/negative attitude and everything, but that is a moral issue; it differs by person. To put it simply, Yui's thoughts should be: I couldn't care less about his feelings since the person has absolutely no intentions for mine from the beginning.

And honestly. the guy acts like a total kid. Yui's line of thoughts are probably something like: People are dying out there left and right, sacrificing everything so they could protect the people and protect US from BETA's invasion, so that we could someday defeat BETA and regain the peaceful world we've lost, and THIS is the kind of person I had to rely on to cover my back? I don't know about you guys, but at least for Episode 1, that one moment, Yuuya was definitely on the wrong there.

Besides, the Americans would've done their bragging in a much more stylish, cool manner *shakes head* Yuuya is so fail! xD
__________________
Craxuan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 15:03   Link #1511
YF19EX
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
I think a "circus stunt flyby" would have fit that bill.
YF19EX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 15:16   Link #1512
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
BTW regardless of that "kisama" bit which is not necessarily meant to be offensive in that context, I agree with Wild Goose's analysis: Yuuya is an ass Yui is a bitch.

Ep4 shows us why Yuuya doesn't like japanese people, but that still doesn't justify his negative attitude towards Yui. In the end he's showing hostility to someone just because of her japanese ethnicity which is exactly the same thing he was subjected to when he was a kid. Another case of a victim becoming a victimizer.

As for Yui she reached the bottom when she outright declared that she considers Yuuya a Japanese showing complete disrespect for his nationality, not to mention the other half of his ethnicity.
Also telling him that he was without talent was pretty stupid. Talent by definition is something that you possess or you don't, you can't "fix" that. Saying that he doesn't have talent is the same as saying that they might as well stop there because she's not expecting anything good from him. That's really the worst way to start a partnership.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 15:24   Link #1513
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Actually, '未熟' doesn't not mean that he 'does not have talent', it's closer to the meaning 'naive' or 'immature'. That's what I believe from my kanji knowledge (which came from my Chinese origin lawl), and a simple Google Translate also confirm my suspicions. I wonder why the translation turned out so inaccurate.

And oh, a racist being racist. The irony.
__________________
Craxuan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 15:29   Link #1514
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Ah, you're right, she just said he's inexperienced... which is totally true...

In that case I withdraw my critique, it was just a translation error...
She's still at fault for the the other stuff though.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-25, 23:16   Link #1515
DoomRavager
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Images
next episode preview
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Next episode preview images, but who is that with the apron with the cow and the old flag of Bohemia? I have no clue what's happening here, the manga didn't have anything like that. Some sort of omake sequence?

Supposedly in terms of animation quality they finally catch up from overdoing episodes 1 and 2 after 6 or so, anyway. Not that 1 and 2 were the pinnacle of on-model animation in the first place.
DoomRavager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-26, 02:01   Link #1516
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
That's probably the flag of Poland. Yeah, they look alike...
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-26, 06:57   Link #1517
DoomRavager
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Yeah, Poland's more likely, my bad I guess.

Still not sure who that could possibly be, nor why Tarisa's in that getup.
DoomRavager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-26, 12:04   Link #1518
John117xCortana
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Yui looks like she means business in that pic.
John117xCortana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-26, 12:23   Link #1519
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Honestly if Yuuya is going to fight against Yui in a Takemikazuchi it wouldn't even be a match. In the end Yuuya was losing to Tarisa just because of the better specs of her Active Eagle, he might have won as a team but on one VS one against that Active he would have lost.

He still did an awesome job matching Tarisa who is an expert in close combat with an inferior TSF, but the point is unless he fights on a F-22 he stands absolutely no chance against a Takemikazuchi since it's been proven that he's no so good as to win against someone with a better machine.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-26, 12:37   Link #1520
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
I don't believe Yui would use a Takemikazuchi against Yuuya; that scene is probably just to show that Yui's a Takemikazuchi pilot and an Imperial Guard. Er, she is an Imperial Guard right...?
__________________
Craxuan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, aliens, mecha, romance, science fiction, seinen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.