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Old 2012-05-22, 03:28   Link #761
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
There is one problem with that statement. Yasufuku was just 1 tile away from tenpai and the 1 pin really looked safe.
Being 1-shanten is irrelevant. She could be in tenpai and still given the choice of 1-pin vs 9-pin. The 9-pin is still 100% safe because it's in Shizu's discards.

In this game, losing points could actually be worse than not winning a hand. Of course, if I were to get better at this game, I better take my own advice here. I had a brilliant and lucky Chitoitsu haneman today, only to be spoiled by falling into another player's mangan. Let's just say: that sucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
That would have made your 7 pin also a risky tile (based on the discards the 7 pin was never discarded before)and very likely you would have discarded the 1 pin in favor the more risky 7 pin and you would have lost the chance of being tenpai.
Sometimes, it is outright necessary to dismantle a hand. Now, I have to check what her 1-shanten hand would have been worth, of which you're so adamant about getting to tenpai so badly.

I had a Chi Toitsu 1-shanten hand today. But alas, I said screw it, and started dismantling the hand to the point where it was utter garbage. But, it was worth paying the noten penalty.

Yet, to be honest. I would have dropped both the 1-pin and 7-pin (either order) myself based on the discarded 4-pin from Ryuuka. Playing defensively, I would have assumed those two are safe tiles too.

But ahhh. The sweet delicious tension of this game. Gotta love it. Bwahahahaha

===

OK. I have the episode paused with her hand shown, as she stares down the 1-pin.

3-4-5 man, 7-9 pin, 4-5-6-7-8-8-8 sou. And I'll assume a manzu tile off to the left, cut off from the screen. In terms of value, that's a 0-yaku hand. Why the heck would you want to go offensively with that?

Last edited by Kyuu; 2012-05-22 at 03:47.
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Old 2012-05-22, 03:41   Link #762
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Being 1-shanten is irrelevant. She could be in tenpai and still given the choice of 1-pin vs 9-pin. The 9-pin is still 100% safe because it's in Shizu's discards.
The thing is, it was likely that Achiga was tenpai but it was not 100% given. Most likely because Shizuno didn't declare a riichi. So what was the point of playing it 100% safe and breaking your hand when the tile wasn't considered to be dangerious at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
In this game, losing points could actually be worse than not winning a hand. Of course, if I were to get better at this game, I better take my own advice here. I had a brilliant and lucky Chitoitsu haneman today, only to be spoiled by falling into another player's mangan. Let's just say: that sucked.
That's given that you don't want to lose points. But at the same time, you don't want to let Senriyama holding their dealer position based on how good they played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Sometimes, it is outright necessary to dismantle a hand. Now, I have to check what her 1-shanten hand would have been worth, of which you're so adamant about getting to tenpai so badly.
It doesn't matter for me how much it was worth. My point was that this match was over unless it was a draw or if Senriyama won this round. Based on Shimizudani's last 4 discards either she was also close of being tenpai or she was playing it very safe. So prolonging this round could be dangerious in the long run and if Yasufuku could have declared a riichi, the chances are that the other players are also forced to play defensively.
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Old 2012-05-22, 03:54   Link #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
That's given that you don't want to lose points. But at the same time, you don't want to let Senriyama holding their dealer position based on how good they play.
OK. Senriyama is dealer. And it's South 4. That means: a dealer win can outright end the game, as it would become the dealer's option to keep going. And I doubt Senriyama would be dumb enough to let the game go on. Therefore, this is the absolute last hand. Game over, regardless.

Even if Senriyama wins by tsumo. It wouldn't make a difference as the points lost is equally spread among the other three. That'd leave Kentani in 2nd.

And wow. I haven't written up a section for "End of game"
http://saki.wikia.com/wiki/Japanese_mahjong

(Nvm. I did write it out)
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:03   Link #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
OK. I have the episode paused with her hand shown, as she stares down the 1-pin.

3-4-5 man, 7-9 pin, 4-5-6-7-8-8-8 sou. And I'll assume a manzu tile off to the left, cut off from the screen. In terms of value, that's a 0-yaku hand. Why the heck would you want to go offensively with that?
The value didn't matter ANY hand would work, so she could end the match and assure her team 2nd place, so it's natural she'd be desperate to get into tenpai , she has the biggest concern to end the match fast, as Ryuuka didn't matter she just had to avoid being hit by the largest of hands, and the 4th needed an extremely high yakuman to turn it around, so chance were either Shizuno or Yasufuku were going to end the match, so obviously it's Yasufuku's best interest to actively try to end the match, rather than let Shizuno try to complete a hand of a high enough score to get to 2nd.
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:05   Link #765
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Based on the discards, what would you have done to break your hand without taking too many risks? The only ones that i can think of were the 1 and 9 pin (maybe 7 pin as well based on the 1 and 4 pin discards ) and the sou 4 (and even that is not 100% sure, but i base it on the 1 sou discard from Shizuno). So out of those tiles, i would have picked the 1 pin.

And like Konkaga has said, ending the match quickly and maintaining her 2nd place was also an option.

edit: i am not sure if this counts as spoilers but in the manga we were never giving to see what Yasufuku's hand was. So that was a nice touch in the anime.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-05-22 at 04:20.
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:27   Link #766
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Based on the discards, what would you have done to break your hand without taking too many risks?
I already told you what I would have done. Which would be the same exact mistake -- dropping 1 and/or 7 pin -- based off of Senriyama's 4-pin. Y'know what's funny? There's that 1-pin on Yasufuku's right. Oh what a tease that tile is. Even worse, Shizu was already Chi Toi tenpai with that, but naturally, she passed it up looking to target Yasufuku.

Oh, what a bitch play. Ouch. XD

As I had noted already - scroll up -- where I'd fall prey to suji.

At the same time. I use this mindset as a weapon, where given the option... I'd riichi with an example: a 5-sou in order to get someone to drop a 2-sou. Dishing this trick out -- it feels damned good. At the same time, I've been getting a taste of that same medicine too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konakaga
she has the biggest concern to end the match fast
It's a dual strategy:

1) Kill the hand fast by winning cheap (or any way possible)
2) Play defensively and not die

Unfortunately, she did neither. And lost.

And yes. I know how freakin' bad that feels as I've done it a bunch of times before myself. Nothing hurts more than making a play that costs you the game. Hell, it feels worse than being in dead last (at least here, y'may not give a crap).

If she really wanted to end the hand fast - she would have opened up her hand. Yet, looking at the discards: not much she could do with that route anyways. So much for that idea.
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:39   Link #767
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Yes. The more I realize it: the more dangerous suji actually becomes. Probably about a month ago - I learned how viable of a "weapon" it is to do such things, especially when applying to closed, edge, and single waits. I've been managing to fool plenty of players regarding that lately.

Of course. More advanced players should know how to defend against that possibility, by even denying suji, and rely on other tiles as safe tiles.

Like Regal said. That 9-pin is a 100% safe discard. That's what she should have done.

And finally. Hindsight is a bitch.



Yea. Looking at Shizu's play record after I had made the diagram... (notation similar to here: http://saki.wikia.com/wiki/Play_records ) ...

Shizu literally had to draw out her hand, in which she kept every tile she drew (until the last 8-pin, which she didn't even need) -- and discarded something that was already in her hand -- as she transitions from one tenpai hand to another. Being able to do that? That's nuts.

Plenty of people already have trouble getting to tenpai once -- and when they do -- they can't seem to let go of it. Personally, I'm starting to learn how to break tenpai for the sake of defense, when necessary. But, it's so hard to let go sometimes.

As a case example:
Spoiler:


What do you do here? Notice: I'm the jerk on the other side. XD
If I am the "can't break tenpai" guy, I would throw the 4 pin. But if I am the other way..., I will throw the 5 man.

Kurohane's(My brother who is not a member here) suggestion: Throw the 6 sou.(Reason: He told me 4 pin is too risky, especially if it has no tiles on the pond.(Normal players do wait for tiles that are not hell or one tile wait only..)
He also said that if "the jerk on the other side" is waiting for 1,4 pin, it is wrong as "the jerk" is in furiten if that happens. But we can't rule out the 4 pin as "safe" as he may be waiting for 1 sided. (3 pin, 5 pin wait on 4 pin.)
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:39   Link #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Beside this, I think that mahjong is the world sport in Saki universe.
So wait... does this mean we're going to go to the Internationals after this? Knowing anime's love of national stereotypes, that could be funny.

Anyway, I get what you and Myssa Rei are saying, and I thank you for the info.


Quote:
I think that as easy it is to hate/resent Teru, at the same time it is more easier to hope that despite all the evidence to the contrary - Teru has something redeeming about her.
This may sound odd, but I don't think the two are necessarily in conflict with one another.

Saki does a good job of making the viewer dislike their main antagonists just enough to root against them in mahjong matches, but not enough to view them as irredeemable.

Take Touka and Koromo for instance.

Touka, being a rich ojou-sama that flaunts her wealth and status, is one of those character types that are easy to root against. But at the same time, Touka had some nice scenes (especially in flashbacks) where her kindness and humanity come through beautifully, so even as I rooted against her, it was easy to like her once the match was over.

Koromo is quite adorable, of course, but the way she trash-talked the competition made it easier for me to root against her. However, once the match was over, and Koromo had been humbled, it's very easy to like her.


I don't doubt that the narrative will take an edge off of Teru... at the right time. When the time for family reunification is there.

I have a couple theories as to why Teru is estranged from Saki, and they would at least make Teru sympathetic.


Quote:
And its all actually Saki's fault.
Part of the reason why Teru's estrangement looks really bad on the face of it is that the viewer knows Saki. With the viewers knowing Saki, it's incredibly hard to imagine Saki truly being the cause of this.

Now, if one of my two theories are correct, the estrangement is part-misunderstanding, where both sisters can look sympathetic over it.

I can share my two theories over PMs if anybody is interested, but in the off-chance I'm right and the manga (which I haven't read much of, and nowhere beyond where we are now in the story) gets into it, I'll leave those theories off this thread.
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:52   Link #769
Scarletknive
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post



Based on the discards, what would you have done to break your hand without taking too many risks? The only ones that i can think of were the 1 and 9 pin (maybe 7 pin as well based on the 1 and 4 pin discards ) and the sou 4 (and even that is not 100% sure, but i base it on the 1 sou discard from Shizuno). So out of those tiles, i would have picked the 1 pin.

And like Konkaga has said, ending the match quickly and maintaining her 2nd place was also an option.

edit: i am not sure if this counts as spoilers but in the manga we were never giving to see what Yasufuku's hand was. So that was a nice touch in the anime.
Judging by the discards, the 1 pin just came out. And since Shizuno does not riichi, if i were her, I would throw that too... But since it came out once, I would break the hand and go for 9 pin.
Base on all the discards, the 7 pin may be risky due to the fact that like Akagi, the person on the left may wait for 7 pin.
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Old 2012-05-22, 04:55   Link #770
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarletknive View Post
Judging by the discards, the 1 pin just came out. And since Shizuno does not riichi, if i were her, I would throw that...
For the case if Shizu -- man. That's the best possible scenario for her, which disguised that 1-pin as safe.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:00   Link #771
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
For the case if Shizu -- man. That's the best possible scenario for her, which disguised that 1-pin as safe.
lol, I did get fooled a lot when I play mahjong on my iphone. Keep break hand. >_<

By the way, I answered your question about the spoiler. See who is right. Me or Kurohane.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:04   Link #772
Kyuu
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Originally Posted by Scarletknive View Post
lol, I did get fooled a lot when I play mahjong on my iphone. Keep break hand. >_<

By the way, I answered your question about the spoiler. See who is right. Me or Kurohane.
I had a closed 4... and that player DID drop the 4-pin and paid heavily for it:

Spoiler:


Ever since that day, I thought: "Holy cow. I oughta use this suji trick more often." Of course, at the same time, better not be dependent on it, especially against familiar players (like my mahjong group). Didn't notice this before: I gave up a 3-sided wait for a closed wait.

Anyways. I weep hard for Yasufuku. But some had to lose.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:34   Link #773
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
I had a closed 4... and that player DID drop the 4-pin and paid heavily for it:

Spoiler:


Ever since that day, I thought: "Holy cow. I oughta use this suji trick more often." Of course, at the same time, better not be dependent on it, especially against familiar players (like my mahjong group). Didn't notice this before: I gave up a 3-sided wait for a closed wait.

Anyways. I weep hard for Yasufuku. But some had to lose.
I feel bad for that guy... and Yasufuku... So both me and my bro are right... I am the other way type if you want to ask.(tend to break tenpai when riichi... until become noten.)

I am right... You are waiting on a closed wait.(3 pin 5 pin waiting on 4 pin.)
We can't rule out 4 pin as there is none in the pond, making it extremely dangerous. Follow the AI play.(Played with AI on my phone, and I purposely wait on a 2 wait with 1 of them left 1/2(depending on if its pon wait or chi wait. Only wait on 4 if its very early of the game.)
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:38   Link #774
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Originally Posted by Scarletknive View Post
If I am the "can't break tenpai" guy, I would throw the 4 pin. But if I am the other way..., I will throw the 5 man.

Kurohane's(My brother who is not a member here) suggestion: Throw the 6 sou.(Reason: He told me 4 pin is too risky, especially if it has no tiles on the pond.(Normal players do wait for tiles that are not hell or one tile wait only..)
He also said that if "the jerk on the other side" is waiting for 1,4 pin, it is wrong as "the jerk" is in furiten if that happens. But we can't rule out the 4 pin as "safe" as he may be waiting for 1 sided. (3 pin, 5 pin wait on 4 pin.)
Throwing the pin 1 in the example doesn't fool too many into throwing the 4 pin because of the risk of an obvious 5,6 or 3, 5 wait. If he wanted to play risk free than he should have discarded the 5 wan (twice)
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:03   Link #775
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So wait... does this mean we're going to go to the Internationals after this? Knowing anime's love of national stereotypes, that could be funny. .
We're almost there anyway. I think someone is forgetting that Rinkai is almost made up entirely of expats, with only a single Japanese player to round off the team.
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:05   Link #776
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Throwing the pin 1 in the example doesn't fool too many into throwing the 4 pin because of the risk of an obvious 5,6 or 3, 5 wait. If he wanted to play risk free than he should have discarded the 5 wan (twice)
He is the "can't break tenpai" guy... (like you said, there is 1 5 man in "that jerk(Kyuu, he call himself that.)" his pond so there is no way he is waiting for 5 man, yet either he does not look at the 5 man, or he is just the "can't break tenpai" type.)

So Shizu's ability is still unknown... or is it?(And most of us here are talking about Shizu doing a trick to make a miracle...
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Old 2012-05-22, 11:18   Link #777
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Old 2012-05-22, 11:26   Link #778
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Old 2012-05-22, 11:37   Link #779
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Based on my play -- Tsumo is not something I generally count on. I have a much greater and vindictive preference to shoot for Ron, despite that not being an additional han.

I treat Tsumo as a present.
In this case, Shizu needs to do SOMETHING to break through regardless. Short of counting on someone kanning to get another dora (or hope for ura-dora, which requires riichi regardless), her only chance is to either tsumo or ron off Yasufuku. I'd have counted on tsumo in this case, because it's more likely than the alternative (I would've assumed that Yasufuku would be VERY wary of me.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Yes. The more I realize it: the more dangerous suji actually becomes. Probably about a month ago - I learned how viable of a "weapon" it is to do such things, especially when applying to closed, edge, and single waits. I've been managing to fool plenty of players regarding that lately.

Of course. More advanced players should know how to defend against that possibility, by even denying suji, and rely on other tiles as safe tiles.

Like Regal said. That 9-pin is a 100% safe discard. That's what she should have done.

And finally. Hindsight is a bitch.



Yea. Looking at Shizu's play record after I had made the diagram... (notation similar to here: http://saki.wikia.com/wiki/Play_records ) ...

Shizu literally had to draw out her hand, in which she kept every tile she drew (until the last 8-pin, which she didn't even need) -- and discarded something that was already in her hand -- as she transitions from one tenpai hand to another. Being able to do that? That's nuts.

Plenty of people already have trouble getting to tenpai once -- and when they do -- they can't seem to let go of it. Personally, I'm starting to learn how to break tenpai for the sake of defense, when necessary. But, it's so hard to let go sometimes.

As a case example:
Spoiler:


What do you do here? Notice: I'm the jerk on the other side. XD
When I first saw the screenshot, my reaction was I'd have discarded the 4p (and play into east baiman, then shrug it off as simply bad luck). The opposite-side player's (that is, your) discards doesn't look like something particularly dangerous like (half) flush, so generally it's worth about 6000 on average. My (that is, your opposite-side player's) hand is worth 3900, and is already ryanmen tenpai as well, which gives more than enough material to put up a fight. Suji or not is really irrelevant here. (This is an one-sided suji only anyways, which is almost as dangerous as non-suji tile.)

But I talked about it with a couple of friends and realized that I forgot that dealer's hands are worth more. Well, a mark that I still have lots to learn

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
There is one problem with that statement. Yasufuku was just 1 tile away from tenpai and the 1 pin really looked safe. Also let's not forget that Shimizudani was the dealer. So it was possible that the match would have prolonged (because Senriyama clearly has proven that they are the strongest of 4 teams) and that might could have been dangerious for maintaining the 2nd place unless the match ended quickly.
Besides if you were in her shoes, would you really have discarded the 9 pin? That would have made your 7 pin a risky and in some cases a liable tile (based on the discards the 7 pin was never discarded before)and eventually you would have discarded the 1 pin rather than the riskier 7 pin and you would have lost the chance of being tenpai by your previous 9 pin discard unless you somehow managed to draw the 6 pin.

Eventhough you can easily say afterwards that she should have discarded the 9 pin, but i would say it was not the most obvious choice in the long run.

edit: i have only noticed it now that there has been a tag for nopan for this thread O_o
Yes, it's very much the obvious choice for me. I really started thinking about the match after I read a discussion on it on Puyo's (a 8-dan on Tenhou)'s blog, but even when I was just watching the episode and not really looking at her hand, I was wondering "why would she play it to begin with? Did she not have a completely safe tile?" Japanese Mahjong puts a lot of emphasis on defense and placing, so going all out defense against Shizuno would've been second nature for me if I were in her shoes.

And heck, Shizu played a scarlet 5p. That's a big sign of tenpai already (even Senriyama remarked on that).
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Old 2012-05-22, 14:15   Link #780
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Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
And heck, Shizu played a scarlet 5p. That's a big sign of tenpai already (even Senriyama remarked on that).
That was before she changed her aim for winning hand for two times.

Not sure if other players at table beside Ryuuka noticed that while they were playing but if Yasufuku did notice this, she might thought Shizu couldn't be in tenpai for other winning hand and dared to discard that 1-pin.

Changing the aim for winning hand for many times + Seven pairs hand are uncommon anyway.

So, after the long discussion, after many thought threw in, lets conclude the reasons behind 1-pin discarded that... it was Yasufuku's mistake due to the lack of experience / mistake in reading the game flow.
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