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Old 2012-03-20, 13:13   Link #3021
Lord of Pandemonium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Small lightbulb went off. It might be the case that Zessica's so afraid of the dark because she's been seeing "visions" when no one's around for awhile now. Just tossing that possibility out there.

If they're visions, then she doesn't need light or dark to see them. It's in her mind's eye that she's seeing these things. It wasn't dark the first time, and there is nothing that showed her seeing those visions or hinted that she had. If she had, I'd doubt she'd be so jealous of Mikono if she kept seeing her with a man other than Amata.

She only seem to have them as Kagura woke up. Which makes me think she does have a connection to him and Mikono as well...either that, or Mikage is showing her things in order to manipulate her like he did with Jin and Yunoha because I've seen it bandied about that Mikage can't reach Zessica and yes he can, he could tamper with her any time he wants too. Especially now that he's been given Otoha's projection ability.

Touma entered Deava (that sounds so lewd) before and he's sent his feathers too....Mikage prefers Rose Petals...I guess because Roses and the color Red are synonymous with" I love you " no matter how twisted it is.....so he could just be showing her this. As I said before, the powers of the feathers "awake hidden desires"...and if that doesn't do it, he will find some other way to manipulate the situation--although in Evol it seems like Mykage is more focused on messing with the people who are connected to Silvie more than Apollon. As opposed to messing with the one who were important to Apollon

In OS, it was Baron, and the kids, and Sylvia and Sirius whom Apollo declared he was his nakama

In OVA well Apollo didn't have any family his companions were insects, animals and plant-life. So Touma used Scorpius who loved and hated Apollonious after he set fire to Apollo's nakama--the forest

This time it seems like Scorpious loves and hate Sylvie at the same time...If Zessica is indeed Scorpius and Amata is part of Sylvie...that is.

Or Mykage could be yanking her chain for other reasons. Or she's connected to the main couple in some way --and some visions are true and either Mykage or Kagura, Zessica or a combination of all three awakened them at that moment. Visions are different from memories, because you are "watching" something instead of actually "living it"
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I'll use beautiful colors for you too

@LoP:
.
Next time make it Orange and Black
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
If we are to base who is the reincarnation based on emotions, realize that your words just help my theory more...
In your mind maybe...in my mind..

.NO.IT. DID. NOT.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Regarding the fact that Kagura is more feral and dangerous; realize that when you say that and also mention about Apollonius' feelings for Celienne that you make the split reincarnation for Apollonius make more sense?
Anything makes sense if it suits your purpose.

But no. Not in the same sense that you mean it. If you mean into two different people... While that is a possibility- given my experience with the last two series
there are three constants.
  1. Apollonious was an Angel of Massacre and killed lots of humans
  2. Apollonious power is inside of Aquarion and some memories his former life
  3. His reincarnation was just like he was- a BEAST who learned to love and care for humans.


He was not
  • reborn as blushing and considerate sweet and shy youth like Amata
There is no parts of Amata that is like Apollonious or Apollo before or after.
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
For if Kagura is Apollonius, his last reincarnation (Apollo) showed care for his comrades. However, Kagura shows no development that he ever once turned to the human side in his previous life. He holds no care for anyone. He doesn't worry about the people involved in his rampages unlike his previous life, whom was very upset by things he'd done.

Kagura hasn't had much development as far as his past. Haven't you see the last discussion? We don't know if he's turned to a human or not. Also the series isn't over. If he could turn to a human before he met the love of his life...then we wouldn't be her now. Because NONE of this would exist. That's the whole point. An Angel of slaughter fell in love with a human and was redeemed--it just didn't come without sacrifices and nearly destryoed the world, because--you know. Shyte like that isn't susposed to happen--BUT there is also HOPE in the promise of LOVE. Oh come away with me, to the world of Aquarion and witness a love that brings both hope and great sorrow.

He will change because of "SYLVIE" Apollo didn't care for humans in the OVA either. So?

He clearly holds care for Mikono and she is the one who validates him by acknowledging his feelings for her. He's a "Lonely stray dog" looking for his master...SYLVIE

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post

Meanwhile, Amata shows that care for his comrades. He has feelings towards Mikono (and one cannot simply say love if it is a split reincarnation, because one's feelings would be divided just like Silvia and Sirius')
That is no different from Sirius and Silvia. Sirius truly loved his sister and desired to protect her from all things, including her fated lover. He just wasn't in love with her
Silvia was in love with him. Amata and Mikono's relationship is a lot like that, with the feelings of "love" stronger in the the male half this time around. But he still has more connections with Sylvie and there has been NOTHING that has given him a direct connection with Apollon other than familial as iin his "descendant"


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
but he does hold care for others. A good example is his concern over Shrade. Whilst Apollonius loved Celienne more than life itself and allowed it to destroy the world (or universe), his previous life as Apollo showed that he'd gained humanity and befriended those around him, even Reika.
Okay...

STOP! RIGHT THERE!!!!


Apollonious didn't "gain humanity" until he was reborn as Apollo
Before that he tried to understand "humanity" because he couldn't since he was an Angel. He didn't understand what "food was" and he couldn't produce the " holy genesis light" without his wings, and so he was a bit wounded when Scorpius lashed out for him to save him with the "power" of his feathers

At no time did he express regret for his actions, he just wished he could have understood humans before then...and some of it was a bit wistful because as an ANGEL he wouldn't experience the same things..but he he never had humanity until he was REBORN as one.

Apollo---was a human but he knew nothing about Humans and was taught by the love of his friend Baron and the rest he learned because of his connection to Silvia.

Apollo was vulgar, Apollo was rude, Apollo was crude,Apollo was selfish and he was single minded. and could obsess over one single person and put that person before the entire world... He continued to say "deava be damned, I'm going after who I want and I want to save BARON!" until he he hurt Silvia with his carelessness. Apollo was beast that learned to love
--he's just like Kagura is now
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Amata is the reincarnation of his human emotions, the caring and loving side.
Never was he like that^^

Now that is a stretch
Why that's an all-new character....named AMATA

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
In essence, they are both Apollonius, just split into two beings
But more says he's Silvia.
  • In love with his other half,
  • angsty about Kagura as much as Mikono, memories are locked, born with wings and ashamed of them so hid them,
  • has a power similar to Silvia's
  • is a descendant of the Apollon and Sylvie.......
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
This shines out in Amata. He slowly but surely makes friends with those around him. He cares about them.
So did Silvia....

In short, I don't see why I have to realize I helped your theory, when I disagree that I have. I also think that you more or less helped my theory. Spent way too much time here got to go.

Last edited by Lord of Pandemonium; 2012-03-20 at 14:02.
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Old 2012-03-20, 15:30   Link #3022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Small lightbulb went off. It might be the case that Zessica's so afraid of the dark because she's been seeing "visions" when no one's around for awhile now. Just tossing that possibility out there.
My theory about that was that zessica was blind in the previous life and so scared of the dark. This goes back to her being rena but with silvia's power.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:59   Link #3023
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Originally Posted by mayumi View Post
My theory about that was that zessica was blind in the previous life and so scared of the dark. This goes back to her being rena but with silvia's power.
If she was blind in her past life, wouldn't she be more comfortable in the dark instead ?
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Old 2012-03-20, 17:30   Link #3024
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Not to mention that Rena might have been technically blind but she could see by other means. Sure, she had a pretty weird vision but she herself said that she could see just fine (hell, she saw things nobody else could see). Plus in Evol Crea occupies Rena's position and she even looks like her, so.

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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Just going by basic google results it seems the natives went with 熱い息遣い (the hot breaths...). I can find plenty discussion of that episode with them using that phrase, but I can't find anything the other way around...if you want to try this yourself it helps a lot that EVOL is a term pretty much exclusive to this show.
Well, I suppose that's as close to a confirmation as it can get without having seen the actual script... Breath it is, not worry. (Btw note that when Mykage is working Kagura he also mentions Sylphie's fragrant breath and honeyed voice and whatnot.)
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Old 2012-03-20, 17:51   Link #3025
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Well, I suppose that's as close to a confirmation as it can get without having seen the actual script... Breath it is, not worry. (Btw note that when Mykage is working Kagura he also mentions Sylphie's fragrant breath and honeyed voice and whatnot.)
I listened to it again, and I'm pretty sure it is *breath* but the way the words blend together I can see how the mistake can arise. That said, it is a bit of a peculiar detail for Mikono to remember.

Unless...

She's remembering his deep, beastly breathing while Mykage is telling Kagura to remember the fragrance of Sylvie.
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Old 2012-03-20, 17:56   Link #3026
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People claim Kagura is not important? Okay, wtf? He's all over the promo material with Zessica, Amata and Mikono. If he's not given special plot attention it's because it's most likely that his backstory will play a huge part later (when Mikono or whoever learns about a tragic past to bond over perhaps).

So far, he's the most likely candidate for Apollo(n) reincarnation (if there's just one). Red herring or not, this is a fact (which can be all a Mykage's trolling, but so far it's what it is). So obvious his official profile points out his remarkable similitude, so does Kawamori. Let this rest, guys. I would prefer Mikono/Amata over Mikono/Kagura, but I am not denying Kagura's most likely Apollo(n) over Amata as things stands right now.

He hasn't gotten a chance to have a positive character development because he spent how many episodes tortured and mindfucked in a thorn cage? If you remember episode 5-6, he was like an animal, but he wasn't evil or malicious. He even asked permission to kill to his targets. That's his normal modus operandi.

Jin got it worse than Kagura until he was dedicated a few episodes to his growth.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:00   Link #3027
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-snip-
Did anyone claim that he wasn't important? I think we were just having a discussion on his character dynamic thus far and that, as it stands, its been built solely around Mikono. (The rest of what you said, about him prior to mind fuck, I said a few posts before... so we agree. )
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:05   Link #3028
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Jin got it worse than Kagura until he was dedicated a few episodes to his growth.
By a few episodes you mean... Two ?
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:06   Link #3029
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That said, it is a bit of a peculiar detail for Mikono to remember.
Which is why I wondered why everyone was so defensive when I first brought this up. :P Surely this version is more exciting to those who prefer KaguraxMikono...

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
She's remembering his deep, beastly breathing while Mykage is telling Kagura to remember the fragrance of Sylvie.
That was more like an "AWWOOOOOOOOOOO"

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
So far, he's the most likely candidate for Apollo(n) reincarnation (if there's just one). Red herring or not, this is a fact (which can be all a Mykage's trolling, but so far it's what it is). So obvious his official profile points out his remarkable similitude, so does Kawamori.
Yeah, it's obvious, isn't it? Very obvious. One might say too obvious... *hides from fans' wrath*
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:08   Link #3030
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Did anyone claim that he wasn't important? I think we were just having a discussion on his character dynamic thus far and that, as it stands, its been built solely around Mikono. (The rest of what you said, about him prior to mind fuck, I said a few posts before... so we agree. )
My bad, two pages ago, it seemed that people were arguing about his importance in the story...

As for solely built around Mikono, or rather on scents (Mikono has one he likes). That's true, but Amata's character seems solely built on his disappeared mom and being bullied as a child (which explains his bonds with the people like him: the Elements). I was going to say Mikono too, but so far seems that most of the connection between them is due to his mom (they met by that movie, they bond over that, she looks like his mom, she's quoting his mom's lines).

And he had had more screentime than Kagura. No one is being super developed. Think about Andy and MIX, the basis of their characters is all about Holes.

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Yeah, it's obvious, isn't it? Very obvious. One might say too obvious... *hides from fans' wrath*
Uhh, I remember reading somewhere that the reincarnations would be made obvious during episodes 11-13, rather than using implications, it'll be made super obvious. I can' find the source, but I was looking forward these episodes for this reason.

So yeah, maybe it's obvious maybe because they were supposed to be? The only reincarnation that was a "mystery" in Genesis was Sirius' and then in the OVA, it was Reika's. The lovers reincarnations were obvious.

Maybe next episode Amata gets flashbacks that are long overdue.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:16   Link #3031
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As for solely built around Mikono, or rather on scents (Mikono has one he likes). That's true, but Amata's character seems solely built on his disappeared mom and being bullied as a child (which explains his bonds with the people like him: the Elements). I was going to say Mikono too, but so far seems that most of the connection between them is due to his mom (they met by that movie, they bond over that, she looks like his mom, she's quoting his mom's lines).
She quoted a line from a character in the movie, unless you think Alicia is Sylvia.

The difference is Amata also have a relationship with other people. He spends just as much time with Andy as he does with Mikono, being a card carrying member of the hole-brothers. He gets along with the other classmates like Yunoha and Shrade; tries (but fail) to get along with Cayanne etc.

Yes, all those little bonds add to his character, something that Kagura doesn't have.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:19   Link #3032
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Thinking more about Zessica, another idea: we might be making too much of her crush on Amata and too little of her dislike of Mikono (or if not dislike, whatever you'd want to call it). Clearly there's a bit of both at work, and it's not like anyone's that well-characterized anyways (), but it may be more of a "perfect storm" scenario than her going off the deep end for Amata just because hey! he's the protagonist! (...at least for now, sigh).

Thess: the specific point isn't just that Kagura's narrowly characterized. It's more that he's narrowly characterized in a way that *doesn't work well* if his character gets much more development in the "good guy" direction. EG: we can forgive him some of his current creepiness because he was raised by some combination of wolf-beats and shadow angels; Kagura simply can't be expected to know any better...but if he comes to know right from wrong (), then he has to completely revise how he's going after Mikono...unless he remains a villain to the bitter end. That's the gist of it. Amata's not nearly so "blocked" from character development; he can grow and mature without having to change nearly as many character traits.

Last edited by miketyson; 2012-03-20 at 18:22. Reason: response to thess
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:21   Link #3033
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I was going to say Mikono too, but so far seems that most of the connection between them is due to his mom (they met by that movie, they bond over that, she looks like his mom, she's quoting his mom's lines).
You keep saying that Amata basically has an Oedipus complex and I still see no evidence of it. They met by the movie about Apollon, Sylphie and Aquarion that also happened to be starred by Alisia (obviously this is no coincidence but that's more because of Alisia's importance). First they bond over the movie, then their perceived uselessness and whatnot - they didn't even talk a lot about the movie. We don't really know if Mikono even looks like Alisia - hair color, eye color, etc. are different, and Alisia has a slightly different face structure (as different as the character design allows for...) and in that picture Amata has of her she doesn't look anything like Mikono. Even in Zessica and Kagura's vision Mikono didn't look like Alisia she just wore the Sylphie costume that Alisia is also wearing. And she's quoting a line that Amata also knows and apparently doesn't have positive thoughts over.

Btw, in addition to what Chaos said, we also know about how his past of being left by his mother and being ostracized by other kids formed Amata's personality, we know how he felt about himself, we've seen his character develop into what he is today, etc. etc. He's basically a rounded character that can stand on his own. Kagura, not so much. Again, I'm sure he'll get some development in the second cour, but I'm not so sure about how well it's going to be executed. (I'm not a huge fan of the "suddenly: let's pity the antagonist" development, it's not easy to pull off without feeling forced or clichéd.)
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:21   Link #3034
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
She quoted a line from a character in the movie, unless you think Alicia is Sylvia.
Yes, but makes no difference in the end. Amata's fixated with the movie because his mom played it.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
The difference is Amata also have a relationship with other people. He spends just as much time with Andy as he does with Mikono, being a card carrying member of the hole-brothers. He gets along with the other classmates like Yunoha and Shrade; tries (but fail) to get along with Cayanne etc.

Yes, all those little bonds add to his character, something that Kagura doesn't have.
Screentime?

Kagura doesn't have a relationship with Jin? Izumo? Mykage? Of course he has, previously to the attack on Vega. It's not necessarily buddy-buddy positive, but he has a relationship with them.

How did Amata start his association with Andy? That's right to reach Mikono at the other side of the Berlin.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
We don't really know if Mikono even looks like Alisia - hair color, eye color, etc. are different, and Alisia has a slightly different face structure (as different as the character design allows for...) and in that picture Amata has of her she doesn't look anything like Mikono.
Er...

Here, let the series lampshade it for you. Abandonment issues child who practically and devotedly watching his mom's last film every day in the past, latching on a chick who is moved by the film and just happens to look like his mom, who keeps quoting lines of Sylvie's version of Alisia....

Sure, no mommy issues at all. I ship them and I fully realize he has a complex. It's not all there is in the couple, but you can't deny the first foundation seems to be Alisia (or the image of Alisia Amata keeps in his head). It isn't really unhealthy, sometimes men and women seek romantic partners who resemble to their parents. It makes sense for someone like Amata, with his issues, seeks someone like Mikono by instinct.

I already acknowledged that Amata's bonding over the elements is his other character trait, because we in fact KNOW some part of his backstory (his being bullied as a child), we don't know anything about Kagura's yet.

Not until he bonds with Mikono/Amata/whoever.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-03-20 at 18:33.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:28   Link #3035
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As for solely built around Mikono, or rather on scents (Mikono has one he likes). That's true, but Amata's character seems solely built on his disappeared mom and being bullied as a child (which explains his bonds with the people like him: the Elements). I was going to say Mikono too, but so far seems that most of the connection between them is due to his mom (they met by that movie, they bond over that, she looks like his mom, she's quoting his mom's lines).
Mikono's scent may have been his driving force but I'm talking about the fact that whatever little screen time they gave him past episode six was him being anguished for her because she was in danger, because she was his, because whatever other reason.

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Uhh, I remember reading somewhere that the reincarnations would be made obvious during episodes 11-13, rather than using implications, it'll be made super obvious. I can' find the source, but I was looking forward these episodes for this reason.
I remember a post in here about shit hitting the fan around the mid point but I never heard anything about the reincarnations. The next episode would have to divulge quite a bit (which is certainly possible) because we still have no real idea who Mikono/Zessica are, Kagura is pretty clear, and utterly no idea on Amata. Episode 11 made Mykage/Kagura pretty clear on Kagura/Mikono being the desired end (for whatever reason Mykage might have) but then a mirror threw in Zessica for some reason out of the blue. Episode 12 was chock full of comparisons/overlaps between Amata/Mikono and Apollon/Sylvia during the movie and again, Zessica gets pulled in this time with a display of her powers, and Kagura has to show up right in the middle of the movie, during Apollon's segment, and break through Sylvia's head and end the movie.

If anything, things got a lot more confusing.

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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Thinking more about Zessica, another idea: we might be making too much of her crush on Amata and too little of her dislike of Mikono (or if not dislike, whatever you'd want to call it). Clearly there's a bit of both at work, and it's not like anyone's that well-characterized anyways (), but it may be more of a "perfect storm" scenario than her going off the deep end for Amata just because hey! he's the protagonist! (...at least for now, sigh).
Kinda odd, though, when she's been trying to make friends (and did) with Mikono since the start of the show. I think its more jealousy/Amata than it is any real animosity towards Mikono.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:29   Link #3036
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post

Screentime?

Kagura doesn't have a relationship with Jin? Izumo? Mykage? Of course he has, previously to the attack on Vega. It's not necessarily buddy-buddy positive, but he has a relationship with them.
How much have they interacted? Could you even recall the last time they've interacted with each other? With Jin and Izumo I mean, we all know how he 'interacts' with Mykage...

You can blame it on screentime all you want but it still doesn't change the fact.

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How did Amata start his association with Andy? That's right to reach Mikono at the other side of the Berlin.
So? It doesn't change the fact that he's there in the hole with him almost every night carving new holes in the ground for no practical reasons.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:39   Link #3037
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Here, let the series lampshade it for you.
Pssst--
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Even in Zessica and Kagura's vision Mikono didn't look like Alisia she just wore the Sylphie costume that Alisia is also wearing.
That screenshot is Zessica's POV. Zessica didn't see Apollon and Sylphie, she saw Kagura and Mikono being Apollon and Sylphie, and in that scene she's wondering about wtf she saw. (Even if you believe that Mikono is THE reincarnation or whatever, both Celiane and Silvia were pretty definitely blond, and going by what we've seen of Alisia she didn't have hair as dark as Mikono's either.)

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Abandonment issues child who practically and devotedly watching his mom's last film every day in the past, latching on a chick who is moved by the film and just happens to look like his mom, who keeps quoting lines of Sylvie's version of Alisia....
Abandonment issues child who doesn't want to let another important person walk out of his life like his mother did, "latching on" (he was pretty quick to give up) a very cute girl for some strange reason (like, she was really, really cute? nah probably not) and tries to start a conversation with her using the only topic he has at hand, the movie, and the girl quoted like two lines from the movie over 12 episodes. I... I still don't get it. Obviously Amata has mommy issues just as Mikono has family issues, but so far there are no signs of him equating Mikono with Alisia.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:40   Link #3038
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
How much have they interacted? Could you even recall the last time they've interacted with each other? With Jin and Izumo I mean, we all know how he 'interacts' with Mykage...
Which still counts...something called...(drumroll please) upcoming character development.

Amata didn't seem to interact with anyone aside of his boss in the movie theater before he met Mikono.

What's your point? Some characters might get more fleshed out when the story focuses on them for a purpose. And some characters we don't know anything about aside of their powers, quirks and potential connection to past lives (Kagura and Zessica, so far. Andy too minus the later) because they might be hiding something important for future development.

Like in every series ever?

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Pssst--

That screenshot is Zessica's POV. Zessica didn't see Apollon and Sylphie, she saw Kagura and Mikono being Apollon and Sylphie. (Even if you believe that Mikono is THE reincarnation, both Celianne and Silvia were pretty definitely blond, and going by what we've seen of Alisia she didn't have hair as dark as Mikono's either.)
That's not Sylvie in her vision. The Sylvie in her vision has solid purple hair. This one seems Alisia playing the role.

And Zessica's vision still counts. She had no clue of Amata's angst or fixation with the movie until later.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:42   Link #3039
miketyson
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Vena: we'll see how it turns out, I guess. I can see your side of it and yet whenever Zessica comes up it seems like we see things differently. I guess it's a testimony to the amazing writing that her character has such depth and ambiguity ?

With Zessica I keep coming back to this sense that she's supposed to be the "best" female pilot, and outside of that doesn't have much in her life...if that pans out it would then be not a visceral hatred of Mikono (although TBH, it'd be pretty funny to see her start calling Mikono that kuso onna...), but more of a "Mikono waltzed in here, took my #1 pilot spot, and swept the inter-dimensional romance games? Yeah, you could say I'm a bit jealous...".

But it's just a sense, not the kind of thing there's a lot of concrete evidence to point towards, and it's already a show with shall-we-say "loose" characterization, so I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude.
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Old 2012-03-20, 18:47   Link #3040
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Abandonment issues child who doesn't want to let another important person walk out of his life like his mother did, "latching on" (he was pretty quick to give up) a very cute girl for some strange reason (like, she was really, really cute? nah probably not) and tries to start a conversation with her using the only topic he has at hand, the movie, and the girl quoted like two lines from the movie over 12 episodes. I... I still don't get it. Obviously Amata has mommy issues just as Mikono has family issues, but so far there are no signs of him equating Mikono with Alisia.
Girl looks like his mom. Or rather like the ideal-like lover role his mom played when she was a teen. Interest at first sight.
Oh after watching his mom's movie.
Girl quoted the line from Alisia's Sylvie WHEN they met. Bonus points.
Then it progresses with some minimal bonding. What is Mikono's power again? To connect.

The foundation is still Alisia
. They bonded over other stuff later during their date.
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