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Old 2011-07-07, 22:15   Link #21
thermopyle
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Did you expect him to focus on Shino or Lee? Gaara is one of his favorites so it was a given Kishimoto was going to give him fanservice.

I'd rather see Gaara than Naruto. Already tired of the Messiah. And now it seems like Kirabi is his sidekick.

Heh. Yeah, I really shouldn't be complaining since Gaara turned out to be one of the more sensible Kages (though we'll see about that the next time he runs into Naruto). He's just been developed further than any other side character so I could do without him being the center piece....and I'm still sort of pissed Kishi wasted Neji on the whole Zetsu crap.

It was surprising even to me how fast Kirabi turned from being one of the more entertaining characters in this manga to being Naruto's bitch.

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Old 2011-07-08, 04:24   Link #22
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Did you expect him to focus on Shino or Lee? Gaara is one of his favorites so it was a given Kishimoto was going to give him fanservice.

I'd rather see Gaara than Naruto. Already tired of the Messiah. And now it seems like Kirabi is his sidekick.


Which is why I hope this is over in a chapter. Daddy doesn't seem like the monster we remember so we will learn he really wasn't a bad guy in boring flashbacks. Gaara and him will bond and make peace before he crumbles. While important to Gaara's character, in the grand scheme of things, it is meaningless and a total waste of time. Maybe I would have cared during the first day before we saw how the Edo Zombies have been handled.. Same thing with Onoki and Muu.

Gaara's group were suppose to get backup right? That was part of Shikaku's plan. So when do they show up?
obviously at the nick of time to save them. Basic rule for shounen, well for story telling in general. Help ( that really helps) arriving way before it is needed is short of impact unless the help is obscured before that.
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Old 2011-07-08, 12:44   Link #23
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Is it just me? Or is there very little interest in these recent Naruto chapters? Naruto being the savior and the Kage fights just don't seem to have any juice. Is the war boring folks?

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Gaara's group were suppose to get backup right? That was part of Shikaku's plan. So when do they show up?
The plan was for Gaara to retreat and then hold off the Kages with long range attacks which he is doing now. The First Div(Darui) and other half of Gaara divsion(Shikamaru) would come up from behind the Kages for a pincer attack with Gaara.

They should be there 3-8 chapters from now and will come at the end in typical shonen manner to save them.
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Old 2011-07-08, 13:50   Link #24
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In my opinion, the war has been pretty boring indeed. I had hoped to see some of the best rookies show their skills and how they've grown since part I, but we were instead shown a pretty lackluster fight between some cloud nin we just met, and what seems to be a badly contrived super villain duo. Chouji's fight was lackluster as well, considering there was not much real strategy involved, just him whining the entire chapter until he finally manned up in the end.

While there are many complaints about brining the dead back, I really didn't mind much, because I still believe it could have been well written, but I don't like how it turned out --especially the way some of these epic villains are being defeated. For instance I thought Sasori's death (the suicide) was arguably the best in the story. But he was brought back, for that?? I guess it can be argued that he was redeemed this way, but he also seemed at peace the first time, as if he knew he made the wrong choices and did what he did. It almost ruins the moment for me. ( I did like the Hanzo fight though; even though it was felt a bit brief ) I also don't like how the entire town is made to seem weak just for Naruto to do everything himself. It is really annoying to read, and just seems corny. Even the guy who just trained Naruto with his vast experience, already seems to be pigeon-holed into some side-kick type of character for him. I think they could have also brought Naruto into the war much better than they did.

I was expecting to see a well written, technical fight, comparable to Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori, but with characters like Shikamaru, Neji, and Shino; this war was a nice place to give Naruto and Sasuke a break and show some epic fights with the other rookies, but oh well. I just hope Itachi and Nagato will be put to much better use than what we've seen so far.
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Old 2011-07-08, 14:12   Link #25
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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
Is it just me? Or is there very little interest in these recent Naruto chapters? Naruto being the savior and the Kage fights just don't seem to have any juice. Is the war boring folks?
Since the end of the Pain Arc it has become very common for Naruto-centric chapters to get a smaller response (unless people are coming on to complain about a stupid descion he makes). It certainly doesn't help that the war effort is fairly boring with even the more interesting possibilities seemingly ruthlessly ignored.

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While there are many complaints about brining the dead back, I really didn't mind much, because I still believe it could have been well written, but I don't like how it turned out --especially the way some of these epic villains are being defeated.
Agreed. More than that, I feel Kishimoto misused the technique by introducing new "villains" that had no previous history. Bringing back the Akatsuki, even possibly the Jinchuuriki (I'm on the fence concerning the issue), would have been okay (it could have been more interesting for Madara to use the armies of the smaller villages as his attack force, but that would have still required new characters, so the zombies, as a means to an end, are more than servicable), but to bring back another dozen or so additional zombies, many of which have no bearing on anything, was a tragic misstep that simply bogged down the story (which already had too many character) with even more characters (many of which are fairly uninteresting).
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Old 2011-07-08, 17:13   Link #26
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but to bring back another dozen or so additional zombies, many of which have no bearing on anything, was a tragic misstep that simply bogged down the story (which already had too many character) with even more characters (many of which are fairly uninteresting).
I think he's just stalling. My guess is that he's currently focused on planning out the Naruto/Madara/Sasuke parts exactly the way he wants, so he's just inserting some easy writing in the meantime to give himself more time.
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Old 2011-07-08, 17:33   Link #27
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I think he's just stalling. My guess is that he's currently focused on planning out the Naruto/Madara/Sasuke parts exactly the way he wants, so he's just inserting some easy writing in the meantime to give himself more time.
I don't necessarily like that (it reeks of mediocrity), but a good conclusion would make a world of difference for the fans.
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Old 2011-07-08, 18:53   Link #28
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Is it just me? Or is there very little interest in these recent Naruto chapters? Naruto being the savior and the Kage fights just don't seem to have any juice. Is the war boring folks?
Well, we know none of these fights mean anything, so why should we care? Are the fights even going to conclude, or are they going to be abruptly halted like the first day's batch of fights? Remember Kakashi's rampage? Yeah, neither do I.

As for Naruto, I'm pretty sure people have been getting irritated with the Messiah Complex that he'd been working towards for a while now. Since he's finally embraced it himself, while also contradicting information stated in previous and recent chapters, it's just boring. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't enjoy seeing the main character one-shotting all the bad guys that everyone else is struggling to fight.
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Old 2011-07-08, 19:16   Link #29
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since the edo jinchuruki were awakened after sasuke's eye implant that means sasuke is ready to use his eyes
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Old 2011-07-08, 20:19   Link #30
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Kishimoto introduced us to such a rich world in the first part of the manga, consisting of many different characters, each with their own unique struggles. But then he resolved those problems much too quickly, forgot to develop other characters and began writing a completely different story, that has almost nothing to do with the first part of the manga. He's ignoring countless possibilities this huge world has to offer. The current story would work with just Konoha, Naruto and a handful of other characters. It would even work better that way, because there wouldn't be other loose story strings getting in the way of what really matters. But instead, there are other villages, characters and even techniques completely forgotten by the plot.

You can either create a huge world and make use of it (One Piece), or you rely on a more limited set of elements and create a deep experience by intensively focusing on those elements (Fate/Stay Night). Kishimoto tries to get the best out of both worlds, but that's just destined to fail in my opinion.
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Old 2011-07-08, 23:34   Link #31
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I don't know why... but Gaara's relationship with his father remembers me Shinji and Gendo
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Old 2011-07-08, 23:39   Link #32
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Kishimoto introduced us to such a rich world in the first part of the manga, consisting of many different characters, each with their own unique struggles. But then he resolved those problems much too quickly, forgot to develop other characters and began writing a completely different story, that has almost nothing to do with the first part of the manga. He's ignoring countless possibilities this huge world has to offer. The current story would work with just Konoha, Naruto and a handful of other characters. It would even work better that way, because there wouldn't be other loose story strings getting in the way of what really matters. But instead, there are other villages, characters and even techniques completely forgotten by the plot.

You can either create a huge world and make use of it (One Piece), or you rely on a more limited set of elements and create a deep experience by intensively focusing on those elements (Fate/Stay Night). Kishimoto tries to get the best out of both worlds, but that's just destined to fail in my opinion.
hit the nail on the head with that one my friend, have a cookie
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Old 2011-07-09, 02:52   Link #33
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I don't know why... but Gaara's relationship with his father remembers me Shinji and Gendo
'Nah.
I'm just remembered something weird.

During his childhood, Gaara is always dealing with assasins sent by his father.
If his father is strong enough to stop Shuukaku, why it's not his father who tried to kill him by himself ?
It'll be much more easier, isn't it ?
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Old 2011-07-09, 03:13   Link #34
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'Nah.
I'm just remembered something weird.

During his childhood, Gaara is always dealing with assasins sent by his father.
If his father is strong enough to stop Shuukaku, why it's not his father who tried to kill him by himself ?
It'll be much more easier, isn't it ?
because kishi wasn't able to think of his powers yet at the time...probably
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Old 2011-07-09, 07:26   Link #35
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Kishimoto introduced us to such a rich world in the first part of the manga, consisting of many different characters, each with their own unique struggles.
And they are all here in the war, in a way that whole thing was just a setup for this war.

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But then he resolved those problems much too quickly, forgot to develop other characters and began writing a completely different story, that has almost nothing to do with the first part of the manga.
He didn't spend too much time on side characters, it would be boring. People start complaining when side characters get too much time, even in this war they complained that Naruto and Sasuke are not in it yet and that side characters fighting are boring. And it has a lot to do with the first part, the whole first part can be regarded as just a setup for the second part and finally the war. Side characters are all here, they level up, they fight and so get their screen time, some people complain that they get too much time while others that they don't get enough time, that just shows that they get just enough time. Stories of some dead characters are closed with a "happy end", like Hanzou or Sasori. The living characters get both powerups and character development, for example Choji. This war is where the children who were introduced in Naruto's ninja academy class become real grown up ninjas. Girls like Sakura and Ino who used to be some annoying teenager Sasuke fangirls have now grown up to become real assets for the alliance, they show a perfect performance, one could say they had grown up to be real women (for example Ino's performance was quite impressive).

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He's ignoring countless possibilities this huge world has to offer. The current story would work with just Konoha, Naruto and a handful of other characters. It would even work better that way, because there wouldn't be other loose story strings getting in the way of what really matters. But instead, there are other villages, characters and even techniques completely forgotten by the plot.
Konoha and usual missions would be quite boring, those stories are good for anime fillers and movies, but the main plot has to advance. It's a shonen manga, the power levels have to grow, the known world has to expand, etc. Every new boss fight has to go beyond the level of the last one, and after the Naruto vs Pain fight there is no way back, either it's a global event or it's not enough for the viewer. To put it simply: Naruto has become No.1 in Konoha by defeating Pain, now he has to become No.1 in the whole ninja world, anything less would not be satisfactory for the readers. It's like DB/DBZ: at the ending of dragon ball Goku became the strongest on earth, there was no challenge any more, so in DBZ the author had to go into space to find new evil guys to fight.

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You can either create a huge world and make use of it (One Piece), or you rely on a more limited set of elements and create a deep experience by intensively focusing on those elements (Fate/Stay Night). Kishimoto tries to get the best out of both worlds, but that's just destined to fail in my opinion.
Failing or not failing is a matter of taste, for example it's good according to my taste. I think Kishimoto follows the patter of dragon ball here, and DB/DBZ earned a lot of money and fame, so he can't go wrong following that successful story telling pattern.
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Old 2011-07-09, 08:10   Link #36
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He didn't spend too much time on side characters, it would be boring. People start complaining when side characters get too much time, even in this war they complained that Naruto and Sasuke are not in it yet and that side characters fighting are boring.
It would be boring, because we all know that side characters don't matter in Naruto. That's however the flaw with them.

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And it has a lot to do with the first part, the whole first part can be regarded as just a setup for the second part and finally the war.
Well, 'setup' is a pretty lame excuse in my opinion, especially for a war that lasts two days. The only story strings Shippuuden had connected to the first part were Naruto's struggle with the kyuubi, the relationship of Itachi and Sasuke, that got further development, and Orochimaru's hunger for power, which didn't last long though. You could maybe mention Akatsuki as well, although there was hardly anything we got to know regarding them in the first part. I'd even go so far as to say that Akatsuki was basically a 'shippuden only thing'. Kishimoto is trying to create more connections via Edo Tensei, for example with the hidden mist arc. However, he didn't do anything with this one in particular other than to achieve an 'oh look, it's them' from fans.

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Side characters are all here, they level up, they fight and so get their screen time, some people complain that they get too much time while others that they don't get enough time, that just shows that they get just enough time. Stories of some dead characters are closed with a "happy end", like Hanzou or Sasori. The living characters get both powerups and character development, for example Choji. This war is where the children who were introduced in Naruto's ninja academy class become real grown up ninjas. Girls like Sakura and Ino who used to be some annoying teenager Sasuke fangirls have now grown up to become real assets for the alliance, they show a perfect performance, one could say they had grown up to be real women (for example Ino's performance was quite impressive).
It's not about screen time. It's about development. In the case of Hanzou, or more recently Gaara (probably), I can really appreciate the effort. However those power ups and mere panel appearances of other characters are irrelevant, because there's no story behind them. At this point, if it wasn't for their recognizable faces, all the side characters would be substitutable. They play no part in the grand scheme of things, except for the fact that they are among tens of thousands of others who risk their lives in order to maintain peace, or rather freedom. That is why their screen time is boring to some. There's nothing behind it.

Quote:
Konoha and usual missions would be quite boring, those stories are good for anime fillers and movies, but the main plot has to advance. It's a shonen manga, the power levels have to grow, the known world has to expand, etc. Every new boss fight has to go beyond the level of the last one, and after the Naruto vs Pain fight there is no way back, either it's a global event or it's not enough for the viewer. To put it simply: Naruto has become No.1 in Konoha by defeating Pain, now he has to become No.1 in the whole ninja world, anything less would not be satisfactory for the readers. It's like DB/DBZ: at the ending of dragon ball Goku became the strongest on earth, there was no challenge any more, so in DBZ the author had to go into space to find new evil guys to fight.
Ah, I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was not for the story to focus more on Konoha missions. I wanted to say that the story with Madara, Sasuke and Naruto, as it is right now, does not need the existance of 30 side characters and 4 other countries. They are all useless elements that get in the way if you don't include them into the more meaningful parts of the story. Well, the countries aren't that explored yet, to be fair, and can serve for the introduction of stronger and stronger bad guys, like you mentioned. Still, all those characters are just not needed for the plot.


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Failing or not failing is a matter of taste, for example it's good according to my taste. I think Kishimoto follows the patter of dragon ball here, and DB/DBZ earned a lot of money and fame, so he can't go wrong following that successful story telling pattern.
I guess you're right there. You and many other people may enjoy the manga, and I'd be lying if I said I weren't, too. However, the cheap writing and missed opportunities I see in the manga just spoil the fun every now and then.
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Old 2011-07-09, 11:39   Link #37
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It would be boring, because we all know that side characters don't matter in Naruto. That's however the flaw with them.
I don't understand how they don't matter. What role should they play to matter?

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especially for a war that lasts two days.
Time doesn't matter when really important things happen. Short time does not equal bad quality. Take for example the Minato vs Madara fight, it was a short fight but it was one of the most epic fights of the whole manga.

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The only story strings Shippuuden had connected to the first part were
It would be better to ask what parts were *not* connected.

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It's not about screen time. It's about development. In the case of Hanzou, or more recently Gaara (probably), I can really appreciate the effort. However those power ups and mere panel appearances of other characters are irrelevant, because there's no story behind them.
So you wanted more side characters in the spotlight. I can understand that you would like to see more development of side characters that you like, but if every side character got their 2-3 chapters than this manga would have to run for another 10 years before we get back to the main character. Of course i also complained that for example Neji is completely neglected, but it was good how the story finally got back to Naruto, so i'll just wait some more for Neji's appearance, because i think Kishimoto will somehow find a role for him too. The war is far from being over, so there's a lot of time to show neglected side characters. Other side characters like Choji got their time, so i think that's the most screen time he should get, not one page more.

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They play no part in the grand scheme of things, except for the fact that they are among tens of thousands of others who risk their lives in order to maintain peace, or rather freedom. That is why their screen time is boring to some. There's nothing behind it.
What else can a side character do than fight the evil guys, by doing that power up and have some character development, etc. Just look at this war, it shows people like the Ino-Choji-Shika trio being the heroes of the army, they saved the day there, while countless noname ninja died being mentioned just as casualty numbers. Shikamaru was even praised by Madara for being smart The only thing that is lacking now is the interaction between them and the main character, but it was due to Naruto being removed from the war, but now he is back.

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Ah, I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was not for the story to focus more on Konoha missions. I wanted to say that the story with Madara, Sasuke and Naruto, as it is right now, does not need the existance of 30 side characters and 4 other countries. They are all useless elements that get in the way if you don't include them into the more meaningful parts of the story. Well, the countries aren't that explored yet, to be fair, and can serve for the introduction of stronger and stronger bad guys, like you mentioned. Still, all those characters are just not needed for the plot.
The problem with having only a few charcacters is that there is no depth to it, you don't get the same effect as with a world level conflict. This is the usual superhero story: Naruto must save the world. But you can appreciate that only if you know what he is saving and why it needs to be saved. I mean if you don't know the extent of power of the kages and the allied armies then you don't even know if they need to be saved. You could say here is this self proclaimed hero Naruto who wants to save the world, but the world doesn't need this idiot, so whatever he does is not "epic", it's just his fight. But when you see big bosses like the raikage losing their arms, 40,000 ninjas dead, then as we progress we will see more and more named characters being in big trouble, the strongest ninjas of the world being either killed or almost killed. This kage summit where all kages were introduced serves to show what is this "world" that needs to be saved, otherwise you wouldn't care that much. They also serve as a "measuring stick" for Naruto's growth, the good old "power levels" of shonen manga
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Old 2011-07-09, 12:52   Link #38
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^On the contrary. I think if Kishimoto focused more on fewer characters, their lives being in danger would have a much bigger impact on me, than a threat concerning lots of characters we know short of nothing about.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n
I don't understand how they don't matter. What role should they play to matter?
They should play a more vital role in saving the world. Sure, they defend their towns against Madara's forces. But Madara's soldiers are just cannon fodder anyway, a way to build up to the stuff that really matters. I guess I just want to see guys like Kiba, Neji or Lee play a bigger role in the conflict with Madara. Let nameless shinobis fight the nameless bad guys and let known characters support Naruto and Bee in a more impactful way. Yeah, there were the two legendary thunder nins, but they were only introduced as an excuse to let other characters shine. There is no history behind them, not with the reader anyway. Maybe we'll finally get to see the rookies or other side characters play a bigger role with the new Pain entering the battlefield, who knows. Yes, if Kishimoto focused more on every character, the manga would go on much longer, but if that it what it takes, than that's what it takes. If you establish something, you have to make use of it in a meaningful way.

Like you said, Naruto is a lot like DBZ in the storytelling department. And DBZ was not exactly a good example of how you tell an engaging story, or a story at all for that matter. I guess I shouldn't search for that in shonen manga to begin with, though.
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Old 2011-07-09, 12:58   Link #39
Fran~
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During his childhood, Gaara is always dealing with assasins sent by his father.
If his father is strong enough to stop Shuukaku, why it's not his father who tried to kill him by himself ?
It'll be much more easier, isn't it ?
Ask Kishi...
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Old 2011-07-09, 15:56   Link #40
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It feels like Kishi's going through a checklist. It's expected in this genre I suppose.
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