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Old 2011-07-12, 20:06   Link #41
neji-kun
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
1. That's a pretty fucked up value system to begin with, especially when Gaara is in such an unstable state, so it doesn't portray Gaara's dad in a positive light.

2. It's even more fucked up when the value system is, "I'm not going to help him control the beast, but I am going to needlessly traumatize him and take away the one glimmer of hope and comfort he has in this world and somehow this will result in a good thing."


He was trying to redeem Gaara's father, i.e. make him not look like an uncaring douchebag, and show that he did love Gaara and for Gaara to forgive and love him in return. This is complete bollocks.
I suppose Gaara is meant to forgive him or something which to be honest I really don't give a shit about but it seems to me whatever reaction gaara has to his dad proclamation is meant as further development of his character. The fucked up value system which I agree to a certain extent is yet another reiteration of the new overcoming the old which is also stupid but whatever. Gaara is supposed to make him realize his value system is fucked. He's still not an asshole to me though if you ask me Gaara was just a pussy.
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Old 2011-07-12, 20:10   Link #42
Rahan
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No, I'm just saying he failed. I'm pretty sure people agreed last week that it was stupid to give him these powers but then have him not have put Gaara down himself.
He never said this chapter he would kill Gaara. He stopped Shukaku with his gold sand like he said last chapter, and once he knew Gaara was mindfuckable, he got the villagers back in the village. Hence the "sink and swim".
Gaara sunk (he lost control) but he swam too since his failure at the test was of no real consequences at all except for the fact Yashamaru died and Gaara became batshit insane.

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It's just standard Kishi retconning that's been happening ever since the time skip.
Yeah, no one will deny this is inept writing.
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Old 2011-07-12, 20:18   Link #43
neji-kun
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
He never said this chapter he would kill Gaara. He stopped Shukaku with his gold sand like he said last chapter, and once he knew Gaara was mindfuckable, he got the villagers back in the village. Hence the "sink and swim".
Gaara sunk (he lost control) but he swam too since his failure at the test was of no real consequences at all except for the fact Yashamaru died and Gaara became batshit insane.
.
No dude he just drowned.

And yes the writing isn't the best.
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Old 2011-07-12, 20:49   Link #44
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People still surprised by kishis retconning..LOOL.. it all went out the window in the moments early in part 2 where he forgot the sharingan was meant to be derived from the byakugan..In order to keep his naruto world expanding and the power ups and jutsu power increasing hes had to virtually rewrite evrything he himself stated in part 1. You gotta feel sorry for the guy. Plot holes have long since given way to plot canyons, but i still like the story...just try and suspend your disbelief whenever a chapter like this one occurs..Which is beginning to be more and more frequent.
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Old 2011-07-12, 21:08   Link #45
thermopyle
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Originally Posted by Minato says View Post
You gotta feel sorry for the guy.
You really can't feel sorry for someone who can't seem to keep his world and characters consistent. It's his own damn fault for being incompetent or more likely as you said, willfully ignoring consistency for the sake of super-boom-jutsus and faux emotional revelations.

---

While Gaara is probably in the top 3 of my favourite Naruto characters, his emotional journey's been done. He's become a responsible shinobi. We don't need a rehash of his development when Kishi's got more than a dozen characters on the bench twiddling their thumbs waiting for even a chapter worth of development (edit: AKA Relevance). Ok, probably a mix of incompetence and willfully ignoring what he set up in part 1.
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Old 2011-07-12, 21:32   Link #46
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by neji-kun View Post
I suppose Gaara is meant to forgive him or something which to be honest I really don't give a shit about but it seems to me whatever reaction gaara has to his dad proclamation is meant as further development of his character.
It's some pretty godawful development if you ask me. In fact, it takes his greatest and most tragic development and makes it all meaningless.
Quote:
The fucked up value system which I agree to a certain extent is yet another reiteration of the new overcoming the old which is also stupid but whatever. Gaara is supposed to make him realize his value system is fucked.
He doesn't need to realize it. He's dead, and he was an asshole. Oh, but of course Kishi now wants to portray him in a sympathetic light while actually making him even more of an asshole.
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He's still not an asshole to me though if you ask me Gaara was just a pussy.
All right, I'll be the first to say that Gaara is a pussy for crying over Sasuke and for that gay speech he gave at the beginning of the war, but in what way, in this scenario, is he a pussy?
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Originally Posted by Minato says View Post
You gotta feel sorry for the guy.
He's created an international commercial giant all while printing the equivalent of crap on paper every week and succeeding in a fiercely competitive industry where most fail before they even begin. I don't feel the least bit sorry for him.
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Plot holes have long since given way to plot canyons, but i still like the story...just try and suspend your disbelief whenever a chapter like this one occurs..Which is beginning to be more and more frequent.
Suspension of disbelief means that we can accept this world in which people have magical eyes, summon energy balls in their hand, survive tremendous blood loss, and, yes, sometimes do things that aren't 100% logical. It does NOT mean that we'll accept any and all in-universe changes that the author makes to the story just because it's convenient for him.

Oh, and in the spirit of fairness, I mentioned earlier that Gaara stated in this chapter that he loves and has forgiven his dad, which is untrue (although he did appear to show some emotional reaction). Even so, this whole fiasco is stupid, regardless.
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Old 2011-07-12, 21:37   Link #47
naruske
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A mother's love is instinctual, unconditional, and forever.
unless you're casey anthony lol
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Old 2011-07-12, 22:13   Link #48
neji-kun
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post

All right, I'll be the first to say that Gaara is a pussy for crying over Sasuke and for that gay speech he gave at the beginning of the war, but in what way, in this scenario, is he a pussy?
Cause He didn't nut up the dude just lost his mind aka pussy. But thats just me though. Completely subjective.
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Old 2011-07-12, 22:21   Link #49
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damn....i called it last week what his dad would say....more or less lol...

but a ok chapter, loved the banter between kages and how they pretty much wanted to die.
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Old 2011-07-13, 04:56   Link #50
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It is not retconning, we know about the situation from a mad Gaara point of view and we also see that before a test he killed one guy (page 5), probably he thought it was an assasin, but it was some bystander. Then dad (he was more of Danzo than loving parent) thinks a test to try him, which makes him super insane. Though we don't know if there were really any assassins (except the test) and Gaara still don't know about this. Only learns that mother loved him.
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Old 2011-07-13, 10:43   Link #51
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Now Gaara's father admit that he lacks of faith to his son.

Edo Tensei will ended if the object goals is fulfilled.
Seeing how he surprised with the fact that Gaara is the Kazekage, does it mean this battle already ended ?

Those former Kages other than Gaara's father sure know how to enjoy the battlefield
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Old 2011-07-13, 10:53   Link #52
Sabaku Kyu
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The plan is retarded. So their plan is to needlessly traumatize the 5 year old kid with a monster inside of him and somehow this will prove whether or not he's capable of handling it? How does putting him in an unstable mental/emotional state help him gain control?

Hey, here's an idea: why don't you try to helping him cope with it and learn how to control the beast inside him? I mean, you must some idea of how it works. Supposedly this is an age old tradition, right? (oh wait, but I guess this took place in part 1, where it wasn't).
Help him cope how? The problem wasn't Gaara, it was the murderous, bloodthirsty demon inside him. Gaara was a well-adjusted, yet very lonely child. It was the Ichibi that was dangerous and Gaara couldn't control it. Simply being nice to jinchuuriki won't keep them from being a threat if they can't control their bijuu. Naruto love Jiraiya like father, he nearly tore him to shreds when lost control of the Kyuubi. As far as teaching him how to control the beast, no one in the story has the slightest idea of how to do that besides Killer Bee and Yagura. For most villages, choosing a host was mostly a matter of trial and error. They don't help jinchuuriki cope with or control their powers. Like saw with the Kumo, if a host fails they die, the beast is resealed and the whole process begins again.

Gaara's father wanted to give him one last chance, so he created a situation where the bijuu would completely take over if Gaara couldn't control it. It was extremely cruel thing to do, but that's the only thing he knew. It drive Gaara insane, but at the same time it seems to haves somehow paid off since Gaara could control his powers though he was still extremely dangerous because he was mentally unstable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan
No he wasn't ... Yashamaru was his first kill ... The test turned a lonely kid still trying to befriends other kids into an insane monster ...
Did you see the panel of him standing over a corpse clutching his teddy bear? How did you think Chiyo and Kazekage come to the conclusion that he was failing as a jinchuuriki? It was because the bijuu was attacking anyone who looked at Gaara cross-eyed.
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Old 2011-07-13, 11:25   Link #53
LadyKikyo91
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unless you're casey anthony lol
I'll take her to Kim Trenor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_Ann_Sawyers

Anyway this chapter despite undermining one of Gaara's most tragic aspects of his character was a fairly good one I'll say.
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Old 2011-07-13, 11:32   Link #54
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Lol, well, everyone seems pretty down on this chappy, but I LOVED it- Just the way the expressions were drawn on their faces, and finding out the truth about Gaara and everything- something just made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Like I had just swallowed a baby duckling To me, it didn't come off feeling crappy like a lot of Naruto's love-no-jutsu, and I think it's because we don't usually see Gaara in a love-no-jutsu situation.

Anyway, I really loved it I thought it was really quite sweet...
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Old 2011-07-13, 12:39   Link #55
Ero-Senn1n
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This is the most faux emotional crap ever.
You are getting this wrong from the beginning, there are no emotions here as there were no in the flashback. This "human emotions" vs "ninjas are tools" theme was always there in the manga, and as we see Gaara's father was one who was almost perfect in killing his emotions. When he thinks about Gaara he only thinks about "value", is Gaara an asset to the village or is he worthless. And it seems he raised his whole family like that, both Temari and Kankuro are like that, the only strong emotions they did show are fear. When Shikamaru was crying Temari asked him why is he affected by emotions, didn't he receive training to remove such emotional behaviour. Even now when Temari realizes that it's her father her reaction is not emotional as it would be if she was raised as a normal child. Even now the father just wants to "detemine Gaara's worth" by fighting him, so even now by his logic if Gaara is unable to beat him he is not good enough to be kazekage. When someone has a "value" based on how strong he is, that's not love, it's just logic. The reason his father is shocked is that he realized that his logic about Gaara's "value" completely failed, because he is dead and Gaara is kazekage.

The interesting things is that Gaara says he now understands his father's actions, which way of thinking seems to be too close to what his father did. So maybe in this fight Gaara will also change a bit, and as a result he will be able to understand more Naruto's way of thinking, which is the complete opposite of his father's. The way Naruto thinks about Sasuke is not about how valuable Sasuke is. And if that happens then after this fight Gaara will be closer to Naruto than he is now.
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Old 2011-07-13, 13:12   Link #56
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'Hurry up and kill us so we can rest. We'll tell you our weak points and all our powers.'

Wow, now I'm really on the edge of my seat . . .
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Old 2011-07-13, 14:13   Link #57
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inorite. Though those old kages are pretty douchebaggy in their own right.
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Old 2011-07-13, 14:29   Link #58
Ero-Senn1n
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'Hurry up and kill us so we can rest. We'll tell you our weak points and all our powers.'

Wow, now I'm really on the edge of my seat . . .
Kishimoto realized that the zombies are being killed too easily. So he just invented this trick, this way they can be beaten and at the same time they don't have to be dumbed down too much

But this weak point of Edo Tensei was already known. However when Kabuto began to focus on Zabuza and Haku they just completely lost their character and became real mindless zombies, so presumably Kabuto can even stop their talking. Kabuto can probably focus only one one or two of them at a time, so he can't make all the zombies STFU (but this is just my assumption based on Kabuto's performance so far, he may become better with this jutsu).
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Old 2011-07-13, 17:44   Link #59
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If you think about it, the kage's response to the whole situation is very realistic. Their pride shouldn't allow them to accept being pull back for the sole purpose of being a puppet to anothers will.
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Old 2011-07-13, 17:50   Link #60
DeDe
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
You are getting this wrong from the beginning, there are no emotions here as there were no in the flashback. This "human emotions" vs "ninjas are tools" theme was always there in the manga, and as we see Gaara's father was one who was almost perfect in killing his emotions. When he thinks about Gaara he only thinks about "value", is Gaara an asset to the village or is he worthless. And it seems he raised his whole family like that, both Temari and Kankuro are like that, the only strong emotions they did show are fear. When Shikamaru was crying Temari asked him why is he affected by emotions, didn't he receive training to remove such emotional behaviour. Even now when Temari realizes that it's her father her reaction is not emotional as it would be if she was raised as a normal child. Even now the father just wants to "detemine Gaara's worth" by fighting him, so even now by his logic if Gaara is unable to beat him he is not good enough to be kazekage. When someone has a "value" based on how strong he is, that's not love, it's just logic. The reason his father is shocked is that he realized that his logic about Gaara's "value" completely failed, because he is dead and Gaara is kazekage.

The interesting things is that Gaara says he now understands his father's actions, which way of thinking seems to be too close to what his father did. So maybe in this fight Gaara will also change a bit, and as a result he will be able to understand more Naruto's way of thinking, which is the complete opposite of his father's. The way Naruto thinks about Sasuke is not about how valuable Sasuke is. And if that happens then after this fight Gaara will be closer to Naruto than he is now.
I don't see Gaara really changing here. Gaara is already a Cardinal in Naruto's Church. He doesn't need to change to understand Naruto or become closer to him. He is in line with Naruto's thinking and has converted others(the army and Onoki) through his teachings. Really, the only character from Naruto's generation, who has interacted with him, and is not on board is Karui. And she only needs a slight push to join.

I don't think anyone has to understand Naruto's feelings about Sasuke. Consider that the Konoha 12 don't care how valuable Sasuke is as a ninja. They don't see him as a tool. They simply see him as someone who can drag them into a cycle of revenge. Which even Naruto admits is quite true. It's just that Naruto wants to be the one to deal with him.

And yeah, Temari in the hospital said she went underwent training to subdue her emotions. This was part of the Kazekage's program and something Konoha did not do. So it showed us what were we dealing with in Suna at the time and how the Kazekage viewed ninja as tools. The whole point of Gaara's character is breaking away from this mentality, finding his self worth, and being loved. And the rare times Kishi has bothered to develop Temari and Kankuro, he has showed that they are also breaking away from this training. Although Temari still comes off as standoffish to everyone expect her family and Shikamaru.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But this weak point of Edo Tensei was already known. However when Kabuto began to focus on Zabuza and Haku they just completely lost their character and became real mindless zombies, so presumably Kabuto can even stop their talking. Kabuto can probably focus only one one or two of them at a time, so he can't make all the zombies STFU (but this is just my assumption based on Kabuto's performance so far, he may become better with this jutsu).
Kabuto admitted that he left many of the zombies personalities intact in order to engage in psychological warfare. He felt that the Alliance would be at a disadvantage facing their loved ones and would fight with reservation. He was wrong. The only one this has worked on is Choji.

I also wonder if he drained most of Anko's chakra making it impossible for him to take over multiple zombies at this point. I think we need an update on what Kabuto is thinking right about now.
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