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Old 2011-07-13, 19:42   Link #61
Methuselah
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I dont understand. Didn't Gaara said that he killed his mom when he was still inside her womb?! What is this retcon?! Now his parents loves him?
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Old 2011-07-13, 22:14   Link #62
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Gaara's dad is killed by Orochimaru, I don't think he is stronger than Gaara.

Although Oro is quite powerful, enough to place him in Akatsuki at one time.
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Old 2011-07-13, 23:08   Link #63
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Not hard to kill someone if it's a backstab. Though I'm not sure of the details.
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Old 2011-07-13, 23:25   Link #64
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i had to read all the posts to remember the chapter, i forgot all about it as soon as i read it. probably because i felt the chapter is less interesting than most. gaara was one of my favorite characters, i liked him when he was a tormented, lonely and angry child longing for acceptance. but as screwed up as he was, he has gotten over it and moved on. the chapter was nothing more than fan service to me. fans were asking for more gaara so kishi simply handed them this chapter. i don't really care whether his dad was an asshole or not. even if kishi tried to redeem him somewhat by attempting to explain the character's reasons. gaara doesn't need to know really. he has overcome his demons and he has learned that he is loved despite being seen as a monster while he was growing up, he no longer needs to be told that. it would have mattered if gaara had found out about this years ago.
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Old 2011-07-14, 03:45   Link #65
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what an incredibly heart warming chapter. kishi playing the eternally loving mother card again.
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Old 2011-07-14, 10:09   Link #66
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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
Kabuto admitted that he left many of the zombies personalities intact in order to engage in psychological warfare. He felt that the Alliance would be at a disadvantage facing their loved ones and would fight with reservation. He was wrong. The only one this has worked on is Choji.

I also wonder if he drained most of Anko's chakra making it impossible for him to take over multiple zombies at this point. I think we need an update on what Kabuto is thinking right about now.
Kabuto seemed surprised either because one of his Edo Tensei zombies had been so quickly defeated or because of Naruto's presence on the battlefield. He's probably going to change up his plans soon.
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Old 2011-07-14, 12:11   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Methuselah View Post
I dont understand. Didn't Gaara said that he killed his mom when he was still inside her womb?! What is this retcon?! Now his parents loves him?
Do you remember what you did when you were born?

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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
I don't see Gaara really changing here. Gaara is already a Cardinal in Naruto's Church. He doesn't need to change to understand Naruto or become closer to him. He is in line with Naruto's thinking and ...
Last time he met with Naruto they had a serious conflict there, Naruto rejected Gaara's view on the Sasuke issue. If i remember correctly Gaara suggested that Naruto should kill Sasuke for his own and Sasuke's good. This is a logical way of thinking, but it's against Naruto's faith. It seems that while Gaara has changed completely from an emotion driven pshychopath, now he is suppressing his human feelings too much by being too rational. You can rationalize your decisions based on the dogmas of the Narutoism religion (or any other) or you can just "feel" what's wrong and what's right. I think right now there is a gap between Naruto and Gaara, because Gaara is too much rational compared to Naruto. And because of this there is the conflict, while Naruto by meeting his parents could just get rid of his emotional insecurities that among other things has prevented him to tame the kyuubi, Gaara still has his emotional problems deep inside, he decided to bury his problems below the strong layer of his rational mind but that doesn't mean he is "mentally healthy", it just means he supressed his problems. If by meeting his father, and realizing how his mother loved him, he can achieve his mental stability he won't need to supress his emotions any more, and that will lead him closer to Naruto. I think that is what Kishimomot wants to do, to finally make a "happy end" for Gaara (and his father), which also will evolve Gaara's relationship with Naruto to the final level (by final i mean the one with which this manga will end).

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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
I also wonder if he drained most of Anko's chakra making it impossible for him to take over multiple zombies at this point. I think we need an update on what Kabuto is thinking right about now.
Kishimoto probably wants to make Edo Tensei as strong as the plot requires, and because of that he can't tell us the details because then he will be bound by that which would cause him trouble when inventing the different events in the future.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2011-07-14 at 12:28.
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Old 2011-07-14, 13:23   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Last time he met with Naruto they had a serious conflict there, Naruto rejected Gaara's view on the Sasuke issue. If i remember correctly Gaara suggested that Naruto should kill Sasuke for his own and Sasuke's good. This is a logical way of thinking, but it's against Naruto's faith. It seems that while Gaara has changed completely from an emotion driven pshychopath, now he is suppressing his human feelings too much by being too rational. You can rationalize your decisions based on the dogmas of the Narutoism religion (or any other) or you can just "feel" what's wrong and what's right. I think right now there is a gap between Naruto and Gaara, because Gaara is too much rational compared to Naruto.
I think Dede's correct on this. Gaara isn't overly rational compared to Naruto. He's just not as idealistic when it comes to Sasuke. No one is. Gaara is sympathetic though, and even shed tears for Sasuke during the Kage Summit. His view on Sasuke has nothing to do with his father, he simply reached the same conclusion everyone else had including Kakashi, Sakura and Shikamaru ...that Sasuke was irredeemable and far too dangerous to let live.
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Old 2011-07-14, 16:40   Link #69
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His view on Sasuke has nothing to do with his father, he simply reached the same conclusion everyone else had including Kakashi, Sakura and Shikamaru ...that Sasuke was irredeemable and far too dangerous to let live.
But he also knew the same kind of pain that Naruto and Sasuke had. This makes his decision hold more weight compared to people who are just scared, but don't understand why Sasuke is taking action. Garra knows that Sasuke is CHOSING to inflict pain on others dispite knowing that it will spread more pain and make more people like sasuke, therefore his solution is to kill sasuke for this crime instead of trying to forgive him as he sees it as the best way to prevent further damage to everyone.
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Old 2011-07-14, 19:19   Link #70
Methuselah
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Do you remember what you did when you were born?
What a silly way to smartass yourself miserably. Of course Gaara has no knowledge of it BUT the manga has came to the conclusion of Gaara's history and that he became temporarily psychotic because of it. Kishi did not make this any better by showing that his parents TRUELY loved him but displayed a form of extreme child abuse and neglect.

And when I meant abuse and neglect:

Gaara was told he was responsible of killing his mother (in detail, while still in her womb). *please confirm source.

Gaara was hated by the village of being a monster while not being cared for by father.

Father tried to assassinate him more than 4 times! Shows how much he was hated even by his flesh and blood.

AND SO SO MANY MORE.

Kishi is pro in child abuse/neglect? o.O because that's all I see with this chapter and retcon as being the most hideous of all. If my life is like that I would personally dispise my father for such sick "tests" to judge my "worth" to him and would want to murder him cold blood.

Gaara I pitty you.
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Old 2011-07-14, 19:46   Link #71
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I dont understand. Didn't Gaara said that he killed his mom when he was still inside her womb?! What is this retcon?! Now his parents loves him?
His mother died in childbirth it amounts to the same thing, he lived, she died. All he knows is what he was told by his father and his uncle.

we now know they weren't telling him the exact truth just only a version of it.

it happens
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Old 2011-07-15, 00:09   Link #72
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His mother died in childbirth it amounts to the same thing, he lived, she died. All he knows is what he was told by his father and his uncle.

we now know they weren't telling him the exact truth just only a version of it.
And it completely undermines one of the most heartwrenching and emotionally poignant moments of the series.
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Fixed it for ya.
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Old 2011-07-15, 02:49   Link #73
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And it completely undermines one of the most heartwrenching and emotionally poignant moments of the series.

Fixed it for ya.
not for me it doesn't it enhances it
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Old 2011-07-15, 08:42   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Last time he met with Naruto they had a serious conflict there, Naruto rejected Gaara's view on the Sasuke issue. If i remember correctly Gaara suggested that Naruto should kill Sasuke for his own and Sasuke's good. This is a logical way of thinking, but it's against Naruto's faith. It seems that while Gaara has changed completely from an emotion driven pshychopath, now he is suppressing his human feelings too much by being too rational. You can rationalize your decisions based on the dogmas of the Narutoism religion (or any other) or you can just "feel" what's wrong and what's right. I think right now there is a gap between Naruto and Gaara, because Gaara is too much rational compared to Naruto. And because of this there is the conflict, while Naruto by meeting his parents could just get rid of his emotional insecurities that among other things has prevented him to tame the kyuubi, Gaara still has his emotional problems deep inside, he decided to bury his problems below the strong layer of his rational mind but that doesn't mean he is "mentally healthy", it just means he supressed his problems. If by meeting his father, and realizing how his mother loved him, he can achieve his mental stability he won't need to supress his emotions any more, and that will lead him closer to Naruto. I think that is what Kishimomot wants to do, to finally make a "happy end" for Gaara (and his father), which also will evolve Gaara's relationship with Naruto to the final level (by final i mean the one with which this manga will end).
It's not really against Naruto's faith, since Naruto himself said he is prepared to die against Sasuke to take him out to protect Konoha, if he can't redeem him. Naruto was frightened by Sasuke when seeing him after the Kage Summit. Cut out all the hooky Kishimoto bromance crap and this basically means Naruto is ready to stop him. Something has to be done about Sasuke. That is not rational or emotional. Just a fact. Naruto just wants to be the one to deal with him due to his unwavering "love" for Sasuke.

Gaara is not suppressing anything. Nor is he not idealistic. Gaara's feelings on Sasuke are no different than Kakashi, or Naurto's buddy Shikamaru and the Konoha kids. Neither Gaara, Kakashi, or Shikamaru have to evolve their thinking on Sasuke. Because there is nothing to evolve to. They can't have Naruto's point of view on that matter.

I agree with Dede and Sabaku Kyu. This development for Gaara has nothing to do with changing his views on Sasuke. I think it is just that Kishimoto felt Gaara, a popular side character, needed closure with his mother and father. Even though large segments of the fanbase didn't and greatly dislike fiddling with his backstory. This really feels like a huge waste of time.

Nothing will change with Gaara and Naruto's relationship. They can't get closer. Let us examine their relationship. Naruto has not thought about Gaara once in many moons. When he has thought about the war it has only been about his Konoha friends and saving them. Gaara never enters his thoughts. He is not part of Naruto's inner circle of close friends.
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Old 2011-07-15, 10:55   Link #75
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And it completely undermines one of the most heartwrenching and emotionally poignant moments of the series.
Because after going through some extreme childhood emotional trauma and going batshit insane with a blood-thirsty monster inside of him, Gaara still ended up being one of the most competent ninja in the Naruto universe...He could have skipped the self-therapy sessions (With a little help from Naruto to see the light) and stayed angsty even through his later years like Sasuke, but he didn't...

Before any of the revelations, Gaara claimed he understood his father's assassination actions and forgave him (Who he had previously desired to kill earlier in his life), and even showed a still-loving attachment to his mother (Who for all Gaara still knew was still the same figure that cursed him anyway)...If anything, the revelations are a confirmation of everything that Gaara still holds content with himself, showing he's matured beyond a point that his father thought he was capable of, and that he's mentally survived his childhood trauma and moved on away from it (Something many characters are somehow incapable of accomplishing)...Maturity that got him to the position of Kazekage, succeeding his father, and even gaining the respect of the other Kages...

In my opinion, Gaara earned this...
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Old 2011-07-15, 15:35   Link #76
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Because after going through some extreme childhood emotional trauma and going batshit insane with a blood-thirsty monster inside of him, Gaara still ended up being one of the most competent ninja in the Naruto universe...He could have skipped the self-therapy sessions (With a little help from Naruto to see the light) and stayed angsty even through his later years like Sasuke, but he didn't...

Before any of the revelations, Gaara claimed he understood his father's assassination actions and forgave him (Who he had previously desired to kill earlier in his life), and even showed a still-loving attachment to his mother (Who for all Gaara still knew was still the same figure that cursed him anyway)...If anything, the revelations are a confirmation of everything that Gaara still holds content with himself, showing he's matured beyond a point that his father thought he was capable of, and that he's mentally survived his childhood trauma and moved on away from it (Something many characters are somehow incapable of accomplishing)...Maturity that got him to the position of Kazekage, succeeding his father, and even gaining the respect of the other Kages...

In my opinion, Gaara earned this...
Reminds me of the bible story of Job. Satan felt man was weak and would turn his back on God if bad things happened to him. So God allowed Satan to do terrible things to Job to test his faith. He wanted to see if Job would curse and blame God for all his misfortune. But even though he was tortured and lost everything, Job never blamed God for his problems. God then saw that Job was a righteous man whose faith never wavered. So he restored everything to Job and even gave him a powerup.

Gaara still loved a mother who he thought hated him. And forgave a father who he thought cared nothing for him. By reforming himself into a good person, and never damning his family for his plight(he actually forgave them), you can say Gaara did earn this happy ending. Unlike a certain Uchiha.

It goes to show why I prefer the "side" characters and their stories in this manga a lot more than the main ones. Now can Temari please get a happy ending too?
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Old 2011-07-15, 16:52   Link #77
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Now can Temari please get a happy ending too?
And I suppose her happy ending involves a certain cloud-loving-pineapple-head? .
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Old 2011-07-15, 17:35   Link #78
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Gaara still loved a mother who he thought hated him. And forgave a father who he thought cared nothing for him. By reforming himself into a good person, and never damning his family for his plight(he actually forgave them), you can say Gaara did earn this happy ending. Unlike a certain Uchiha.
Gaara didn't think his mother hated him. He thought she hated the village, which was actually something he believed they had in common. He also hated his father deeply until Naruto convinced him to let go of his hatred. Gaara was just as irredeemable before his conversion as Sasuke is right now. He was a complete psycho, murdering people in cold blood just to assert his own value. Also, since turning into a "good guy", it seems he hasn't been attacked by anyone seeking revenge for the people he killed in his childhood; none that we know of, at least. So it looks like he's exempt even from the cycle of hatred that everyone else is subject to. Gaara did earn his happy ending, but he didn't do everything on his own like you make it sound. Without Naruto he would still be a psychotic murderer.
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Old 2011-07-15, 23:25   Link #79
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Gaara didn't think his mother hated him. He thought she hated the village, which was actually something he believed they had in common. He also hated his father deeply until Naruto convinced him to let go of his hatred. Gaara was just as irredeemable before his conversion as Sasuke is right now. He was a complete psycho, murdering people in cold blood just to assert his own value. Also, since turning into a "good guy", it seems he hasn't been attacked by anyone seeking revenge for the people he killed in his childhood; none that we know of, at least. So it looks like he's exempt even from the cycle of hatred that everyone else is subject to. Gaara did earn his happy ending, but he didn't do everything on his own like you make it sound. Without Naruto he would still be a psychotic murderer.
I made mention that Naruto helped Gaara see the light...The thing is that Gaara still had to re-examine his own life after having a mirror put in front of his face, but he managed to come successful out of it, now acting out for others and moving on from his troubles...Sasuke, on the other hand, is still on the arrogant path of thinking life is too hard so he'll go kill some people, even after given a hint that his shit don't make sense...

Naruto, funny enough, the person that helped Gaara re-evaluate his own life for the better, is also the very kind of friend Gaara's dad thought wasn't possible for Gaara to make...Gaara, in all his "Look at me now, dad" glory, has still earned closure to his life's own open ends...
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Old 2011-07-16, 03:22   Link #80
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I made mention that Naruto helped Gaara see the light...The thing is that Gaara still had to re-examine his own life after having a mirror put in front of his face, but he managed to come successful out of it, now acting out for others and moving on from his troubles...Sasuke, on the other hand, is still on the arrogant path of thinking life is too hard so he'll go kill some people, even after given a hint that his shit don't make sense...
Until Pain's visit to Konoha, Naruto was hardly a mirror to Sasuke like he was for Gaara. At Sasuke's turning point, the fight at VotE, Konoha failed to bring him back. Would Gaara have changed if he had killed Naruto in their fight? Jinchuuriki like Naruto and Gaara only wanted someone to love them. Sasuke was surrounded by people who loved him and they were all murdered. He isn't looking for people to love him any more, he just wants revenge. Nobody understood that, and even Kakashi was entirely naive about it; thinking it will just go away if he tells Sasuke "revenge is bad, don't do it". Nonetheless, Sasuke eventually found himself in a new place where he could belong. A place where he could smile again a discover a new life without his clan. It was team 7.

Itachi, not content to let Sasuke grow in an environment with healthy bonds of friendship and camaraderie, decided that this is all bullshit and put Sasuke back on the path of hatred. Itachi, Orochimaru and Madara have all forged Sasuke into a being of hatred. When Gaara switched sides the biggest influence pushing him into madness, his father, was already gone. Sasuke always had someone to take up the mantle and drive him further down the path of darkness. It's something that both Sasuke and Gaara had, but not Naruto; a person constantly standing over him, hellbent on ensuring that his life will always be screwed no matter what he does.

By the way, how did Naruto react when he saw Hinata murdered in front of him? He gave in to the 9-tails. How many times has Sasuke seen his parents murdered in front of him thanks to Itachi? A whole bunch. Sasuke is constantly in a mental state similar to when Naruto thought "fuck it, you're all going down with me". Not to mention, as Karin pointed out, as the sharingan gets stronger Sasuke's chakra gets colder. It's not entirely unlikely that the sharingan is also affecting Sasuke psychologically, pushing him further off the edge.

You're saying Sasuke doesn't make sense. Sasuke is talking to his dead brother that he spent his life trying to kill. I don't see Sasuke trying to make any sense. Despite all that, we all saw that in Naruto and Sasuke's last encounter, Naruto was still able to get through to him. There is still a sliver of innocence left in Sasuke and Naruto is still able to reach it when nobody else can.

Last edited by Casshern; 2011-07-16 at 03:32.
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