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Old 2011-10-12, 16:51   Link #141
Irisiel
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So, in the past, Taichi was an instigator in ostracizing "weirdos". In the present, he is still interested in Chihaya yet still dates another girl.

And that's stuff that his parents haven't been shown to pressure him into.

While it's nice that he owned up so quickly to taking the glasses, I don't particularly like him as a person (as a character, however, he adds good drama).

Chihaya, on the other hand, was wonderful with how she wouldn't put up with the bullying bullshit, and Arata was so cute when he said that Chihaya should be queen.

But boo on all the parents except Arata's mother! Chihaya's parents need to recognize that they have another daughter and Taichi's parents need to remove the sticks in their asses.
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Old 2011-10-12, 16:53   Link #142
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereminVox View Post
Yeah, that was a bit of a "d'uhhh" moment. Something tells me that the road to mastering game theory would be a long one for Chihiya.
Well I am kind of hoping that Chihya will learn to appreciate the poems too and care to know their meanings.

But she is just starting with this Karuta thing so I can cut her some slack. She shouldn't be too perfect or she will have no room to grow.
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Old 2011-10-12, 16:54   Link #143
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kaoru Chujo, Haak, and Guardian Enzo - Why do you think Taichi is getting overly hated on this thread?

Taichi was absolutely awful in Episode 2. One of the loudest displays of douchebaggery I've seen from someone other than a Snidely Whiplash-style villain in a long, long time (and his level of cheating would make the worse sports villains I've seen blush). This makes Hanasaku Iroha's Minchi seem like a complete angel by comparison, and that's saying something. The level of hatred I've seen Taichi get on this thread hardly seems disproportionate given his awful behavior in this episode.

Is Taichi irredeemable? No. But let's be frank. The anime itself clearly set him up to be a bully that gets taught a lesson by the heroine Chihaya, so why shouldn't viewers roll with it and get the emotional catharsis that comes with it? I for one found it very rewarding to see him get his comeuppance, and I'm rather amazed at how anybody could root for him in this episode.
I thought the episode was setting him up as immature and troubled. A bully yes, but a type of bully that you can roll your eyes at and say "they'll grow out of that soon enough" rather than the type that continues and seriously causes problems for the victim in the long term. The fact is that he didn't really get any sort of comeuppance (except a type from his mother that no one deserves). He won his bet against Arata and no one found out about his glasses. But he owned up because of his own guilt. Shouldn't that automatically redeem him or do you not think a kid should ever be forgiven? If Arata was able to forgive him then shouldn't we?

I mean if he were a real kid, I wouldn't call him a douchebag or a jerk. I don't think that's the correct approach to take with a kid.
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Old 2011-10-12, 16:55   Link #144
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I don't quite see it like that.


Arata said it best,Taichi's a coward,not some evil bully that picks on people just for fun,that's a whole lot different.

I don't hate (or even dislike) cowards,I pity them.I also have no respect for them and don't root for them.
Exactly.

Honestly, I think people are so used to seeing black and white characters in anime these days that they don't know what to do when a show actually presents something more complicated. The general rule now seems to be you either have to love a character or hate them, period.
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Old 2011-10-12, 16:58   Link #145
creb
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Chihaya's sister was only in the episode for a few seconds, but she's already my favorite character. "That's lame." Pretty much mirrors my thoughts on the game itself, so even though manga readers say the game is the central focus of the manga, I certainly hope that's a gross mischaracterization or that the director decides not to wholly focus on Karuta (which from what I've read and seen is a very simple and shallow game-you'd think Chihaya could have a loftier goal here ). So far, it seems while Karuta is present in the series, it's more of a plot device for character interaction/growth, then the actual focus of the story, which is a good thing in my book.
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Old 2011-10-12, 17:20   Link #146
Kirarakim
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Found a couple Karuta videos Online


Spoiler for Embedded video:

This looks like a simplied version to teach kids English. My favorite part of the video is when 2 kids break out into Jan-ken-po


Spoiler for Embedded Video:

This looks closer to the Karuta in the series. But there are some different roles in this game. Explanation of what is going on is in English.

Anyways these two videos will lead you to more
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Old 2011-10-12, 18:56   Link #147
Dawnstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I meant his motivation for attacking Arata in Episode 1, not his motivation for wanting to win the match. I had initially thought that Taichi had sincerely wanted to protect Chihaya from getting her reputation hurt through befriending the ostracized Arata. However, what I had taken as concern from a friend was instead a threat arising out of jealousy.
Whereas I still stand by what I said in the earlier thread. Look at their present-day versions: Chihaya has turned into an oblivious loner who wants to meet people but doesn't know how. Taichi appaers to be the same old socially-anxious guy (wouldn't be surprised if he has a girlfriend because it's expected of him at his age). They complemented each other well, balancing out each others weaknesses, in their childhood.

Look at it from Taichi's perspective: he's socially anxious and wants to fit in, and he can only do that by "being the best at something". Why, then, does he like Chihaya, and stick around with her in public. Her behaviour makes her a threat from the get go. I'll bet that he sees stuff in her that he'd like to be but doesn't dare to. A glimpse of how life could be without that pressure.

It's as Arata says: Taichi is a coward. But Chihaya isn't brave so much as oblivious and stubborn. See where that will eventually lead her: someone who joins the track team to meet people, and then doesn't join again because it didn't work (unintentionally brushing off her "friend").

In a way, Chihaya was Taichi's courage, and Taichi was Chihaya's social conscience (which is different from her natural kindness). Right now, present day Chihaya's obsession with Karuta seems to be at least partly nostalgia for a time when she was part of it.

So am I rooting for Taichi? I wouldn't put it like that, but I think I could. And how? I'm not watching a show to assign moral brownie points. If they have the potential, I want the characters to be happy. I want Taichi to find a place where he can be happy, and I'm pretty sure that would make him a better person, too. Meanwhile, he's not perfect.

The same goes for Chihaya. Her faults are less damning on a moral ground and also less obvious, but they're obstacles to her happiness none the less. I don't see a simple heroine teaches bully a lesson, here. This cuts both ways, here. They learn from each other.

Arata, so far, is the wild card. Not sure yet what he brings to the table, and what he takes from it.
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Old 2011-10-12, 19:14   Link #148
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
As a matter of fact, yes. Does that mean I'm allowed to hate him, your highness? I myself am more surprised that some people actually love him, but I don't feel the need to lecture them for it, nor do I think I'm in any position to do so. Get off your high horse once in a while.

He acts like a total douche, therefore people hate him. What's wrong with judging characters based on their actions? You said yourself they were awful. Yes, he has his issues, but guess what, EVERYBODY DOES. I haven't had the best childhood either but it's never stopped me from being considerate of others. Arata's issues are far more serious than Taichi's from I'm standing, yet you don't see him act like him.
Nah, obviously having a bad childhood gives you permission to be a dick.

Ok in all seriousness, I agree with you, There's definitely a difference between understanding a character and liking them.
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Old 2011-10-12, 19:27   Link #149
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Ok in all seriousness, I agree with you, There's definitely a difference between understanding a character and liking them.
Now,I know you're a hater and haters gonna hate but that's just not my thing,not only for Taichi but for people in general.

If I hated every douchebag I came across I'd run out of hate pretty darn quickly.
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Old 2011-10-12, 19:28   Link #150
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Now,I know you're a hater and haters gonna hate but that's just not my thing,not only for Taichi but for people in general.

If I hated everyone douchebag I came across I'd run out of hate pretty darn quickly.
Running out of hate....

You are obviously weak. Drink more hatorade IMO.
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Old 2011-10-12, 19:39   Link #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Running out of hate....

You are obviously weak. Drink more hatorade IMO.
Hatorade lawl. Reminds me of this guy:

Spoiler for Peter Chao:


"Stop drinking the hatorade, and start drinking the bubble tea!"

Anyways, regarding the Taichi defence and hate on respective sides. It's understandable. I can understand firsthand what a strict asian mother is like, though it doesn't excuse him from being jackass. Pretty sure Arata has had strict parents, given his introvertedness, though that hasn't been proven yet.
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Old 2011-10-12, 20:26   Link #152
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I don't quite see it like that.

Arata said it best,Taichi's a coward,not some evil bully that picks on people just for fun,that's a whole lot different.
I never called him "evil". But he obviously was a bully in this episode. There's simply no denying that.


Quote:

I don't hate (or even dislike) cowards,I pity them.I also have no respect for them and don't root for them.
It's basic human empathy to be angry at people who are unjustly cruel and mean to other people. Such anger can be channeled positively into standing up for those victims, precisely as we see Chihaya doing here.

Now we shouldn't let that anger get out of control, of course, but it's a perfectly valid emotion to feel when we see one person grossly mistreating another, and for petty reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
The fact is that he didn't really get any sort of comeuppance (except a type from his mother that no one deserves).
He received his comeuppance, imo. He lost the final match.


Quote:
He won his bet against Arata and no one found out about his glasses. But he owned up because of his own guilt. Shouldn't that automatically redeem him or do you not think a kid should ever be forgiven?
Did he apologize? He admitted he was guilty of stealing Arata's glasses, but I don't recall him apologizing for it. You can admit to a crime without displaying remorse over it. That doesn't count for much outside of establishing guilt, in my view.


Quote:
If Arata was able to forgive him then shouldn't we?
What makes you think Arata forgave him? Arata called him a coward. I don't recall him saying "I forgive you".


Quote:

I mean if he were a real kid, I wouldn't call him a douchebag or a jerk. I don't think that's the correct approach to take with a kid.
I wouldn't call him that to his face either. But I do think kids can be jerks at time. I don't necessarily think that Taichi is inherently a jerk. In fact, he probably isn't. But he's off to a rough start here, and given what little we've seen of him so far, I think it's understandable for people to dislike him at this juncture in the anime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post

It's as Arata says: Taichi is a coward. But Chihaya isn't brave so much as oblivious and stubborn.
I disagree. Chihaya was clearly quite willing to be socially ostracized in order to be friends with Arata, and that takes real courage.


Quote:
So am I rooting for Taichi? I wouldn't put it like that, but I think I could. And how? I'm not watching a show to assign moral brownie points.
I'm not watching a show with that in the forefront of my mind either. But if a character is extremely and unjustly mean to other characters, why shouldn't those actions be considered in character assessments? Characters can have their actions be evaluated just as real life people can. In most cases, I don't see why characters should be excluded from these types of considerations. It will effect how likable a character is for many of us, which in turn can impact how much some viewers can relate to a character and/or sympathize with him.
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Old 2011-10-12, 20:57   Link #153
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I never called him "evil". But he obviously was a bully in this episode. There's simply no denying that.
Oh I know you didn't call him evil,and yes I agree he was a bully in this episode.It's just that to me a bully that bullies out of cowardness is different from one that just does it for fun.
Like I said,I don't dislike cowards (but that's just a personal thing)




Quote:
It's basic human empathy to be angry at people who are unjustly cruel and mean to other people. Such anger can be channeled positively into standing up for those victims, precisely as we see Chihaya doing here.
Chihaya acted out of fustration but none of it was towards Taichi,she was just fustrated her friend was losing because he had lost his glasses.
That being said,Arata has every right to hit taichi at the end and be angry,however that's different from disliking someone,just because I get mad at someone doesn't mean I don't like him.
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Old 2011-10-12, 21:02   Link #154
TurkeyPotPie
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This show has been the most pleasant surprise of the season for me. Didn't know anything about it beforehand and wasn't expecting much, but the first two episodes have been wonderful. The match in the second episode was intense, and younger tomboy Chihaya is freaking adorable. I love the characterizations so far and find Taichi the most interesting (if not particularly likable yet). I do hope the show returns to the present day pretty soon though.
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Old 2011-10-12, 22:01   Link #155
Dawnstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm not watching a show with that in the forefront of my mind either. But if a character is extremely and unjustly mean to other characters, why shouldn't those actions be considered in character assessments? Characters can have their actions be evaluated just as real life people can. In most cases, I don't see why characters should be excluded from these types of considerations. It will effect how likable a character is for many of us, which in turn can impact how much some viewers can relate to a character and/or sympathize with him.
I might have acome across a bit more snide with the "brownie points" comment, than I intended. If so, sorry about that. It's a tough week.

To me, judging a characters actions is very different from liking/disliking a character. The latter depends much more on how relatable the character is, and also on how these actions are executed. I don't enjoy making moral judgements, really, but I will if I have to. I'm drawn to anime, partly, because I generally don't have to. Even in clear-cut villain situations, there's usually a relationship-angle to pursue, which I find much more interesting than the moral hierachy expressed in the bi-polar: good vs. bad, or right vs. wrong. This is not to say that morals are irrelevant; it's just that I think I'm coming at characterisation from a very different angle, and a character's actions influence me less than his spontaneous reactions:

Quote:
I disagree. Chihaya was clearly quite willing to be socially ostracized in order to be friends with Arata, and that takes real courage.
I agree to some extent. I phrased that in absolute terms, which was silly. But I do think that Chihaya, in her natural kindness, doesn't really understand the implications of her actions. Well, that's not quite the way to phrase it either. As we've seen, she takes second place in her family, and she's been quasi trained to be happy for others. This comes with a lack of concern for herself, and probably a lessened sensitivity for what it feels like to belong. Doing things for others is pretty much second nature, and Arata has woken something, a for-yourself-feeling, that she didn't have before. (It's interesting that Arata said, that having dreams for others is unfair to them, but Chihaya pretty much ignored that part and marvelled about the "for myself".)

Taichi, on the other hand, is the opposite. While Chihaya's sister bears all the expectations, and Chihaya pretty much forms part of the family by joining the star-project as a cheer leader, Taichi learns that to belong you have to be successful. As such he has developed a high level of social anxiety, but that also means he's much better at picking up social cues than Chihaya. To me, it's not hard to see how their relationship (= friendship) is benefitial to the each of them.

(Btw, did you edit your post? The post I remember reading, and the post I replied to right now seem... different. If some of the things I said make little sense, that might be because I'm replying to parts I can no longer find. The way I am right now, I might well have been reading things that weren't there... [Did I mention having a tough week?])
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Old 2011-10-12, 22:53   Link #156
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Considering Taichii did the right thing at the end of the episode, was humbled, accepted his loss and moved on I don't really see the reason for the hate. He made a mistake, cheated at the game, and did horrible things to his classmate, but owned up to it at the end as best he could by returning the glasses and realizing that Arata's passion and genuine skill for the game far exceeds his own drive to win at everything that seems to come more from pressure from his parents and teachers than everything.

To err is human, to admit to it and make amends is also human. It only adds to the strength of the character the way he was portrayed this episode IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Exactly.

Honestly, I think people are so used to seeing black and white characters in anime these days that they don't know what to do when a show actually presents something more complicated. The general rule now seems to be you either have to love a character or hate them, period.
That seems to be the general rule for anime period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
Chihaya's sister was only in the episode for a few seconds, but she's already my favorite character. "That's lame." Pretty much mirrors my thoughts on the game itself, so even though manga readers say the game is the central focus of the manga, I certainly hope that's a gross mischaracterization or that the director decides not to wholly focus on Karuta (which from what I've read and seen is a very simple and shallow game-you'd think Chihaya could have a loftier goal here ). So far, it seems while Karuta is present in the series, it's more of a plot device for character interaction/growth, then the actual focus of the story, which is a good thing in my book.
Actually she came across as the sole single character I haven't really cared for yet. That seemed like a shallow comment to make...one out of pure ignorance. Also Bingo! From what I can tell the game isn't the central focus at all, it's the characters and how playing the game and interacting with each other shapes their outlooks and desires. Show is a character study so far through and through and I don't see it shifting gears at all.
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Old 2011-10-13, 00:24   Link #157
khryoleoz
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You know, I just love the Cardcaptor Sakura feel to this series' production. My favorite this season...after Ben-To.
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Old 2011-10-13, 00:28   Link #158
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Old 2011-10-13, 01:10   Link #159
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I
Did he apologize? He admitted he was guilty of stealing Arata's glasses, but I don't recall him apologizing for it. You can admit to a crime without displaying remorse over it. That doesn't count for much outside of establishing guilt, in my view.
He didn't apolagize no, but as far as i can see the remorse was evident anyway.

Quote:
What makes you think Arata forgave him? Arata called him a coward. I don't recall him saying "I forgive you".
Saying "You're a coward...but I understand how you feel" and smiling is kinda hinting at that that imo.
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Old 2011-10-13, 06:38   Link #160
Katapan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Found a couple Karuta videos Online
Great videos, thanks for posting them. I also came across this one posted on Yaraon:

Spoiler:

These are apparently A-rank karuta players. I suggest paying close attention to the 03:15 mark when the "Chihaya" card is read. The whole game has been posted on Youtube, it is interesting to see that it goes on for more than thirty minutes. That level of concentration for so long...
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