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Old 2013-06-10, 12:07   Link #3041
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
If you make a piece of paper fold itself in half, isn't that changing its size?
Size and mass are not the same thing. I said mass, didn't I. And when Bisky goes from burly giant to loli, the mass of her body is clearly changing, not only her size. Otherwise she wouldn't get weaker.

How do I know? Because her punches get lighter in her loli form, and that's only possible if her loli body has less weight than her real body, and that's only possible if the mass of her body has changed.

All in all I'm pretty sure that's something she wouldn't be able to achieve with manipulation.

That's my take, take it as you will.
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Old 2013-06-10, 12:34   Link #3042
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Is it? I'm no sure. This isn't confirmed but I think the difference between manipulation and transmutation is the alteration of the mass and the properties of an object.

I think (again, it's no confirmed) that transmutation can alter the mass (from a big object to a tiny one, for example), and even chance the properties of an object's matter/substance (from liquid to solid, for example, or from aura to, say, electricity).
IIRC, transmutation's about changing your own aura. It's not a white card to turn anything into anything else. When it comes to changing sizes... The only time I remember that was that owl guy, and he used a conjured cloth.
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Old 2013-06-10, 12:51   Link #3043
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
IIRC, transmutation's about changing your own aura.
If I remember correctly, when you do the test to see your nen affinity (the glass thing), if you're a transmutation type, the water will turn sweet (like honey). So clearly, it's not only about changing your own aura. Hizoka's texture surprise is another example of how transmutation can be used to change an abject.
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Old 2013-06-10, 13:06   Link #3044
Dengar
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I also don't get where people seem to get the idea that Manipulation = Telekinesis, when nothing couldn't be farther from the truth. It has nothing to do with making things move. (unless you give it the order to move and it then does so)
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Old 2013-06-10, 16:46   Link #3045
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
If I remember correctly, when you do the test to see your nen affinity (the glass thing), if you're a transmutation type, the water will turn sweet (like honey). So clearly, it's not only about changing your own aura. Hizoka's texture surprise is another example of how transmutation can be used to change an abject.
Texture surprise is Hisoka covering an object with his aura and transmuting said aura to give it visual properties.

But yes, there is the water test. Maybe what happens is that the user sends aura into the water and gives it a flavorful property.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I also don't get where people seem to get the idea that Manipulation = Telekinesis, when nothing couldn't be farther from the truth. It has nothing to do with making things move. (unless you give it the order to move and it then does so)
Told you, the water test. Either the water or the leaf (inanimate objects) are manipulated into moving.

And Kurapika explained he kept his chain around to make people think he was a manipulator with a real chain.

Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2013-06-10, 18:20   Link #3046
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But yes, there is the water test. Maybe what happens is that the user sends aura into the water and gives it a flavorful property.
And that's the point. Changing matter/substance's chemical and physical properties with your aura. It's not that only the aura changes.
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Old 2013-06-10, 18:52   Link #3047
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And that's the point. Changing matter/substance's chemical and physical properties with your aura. It's not that only the aura changes.
Except we never see any transmuter do that ever. Hisoka makes his aura sticky and elastic. He doesn't change objects at all. Machi makes her aura thin and threadlike. She doesn't change objects at all. Killua makes his aura electric. He doesn't change objects at all.

Transmutation training involves forming shapes with your aura and moving it around. It doesn't involve objects at all (unlike, say, Reinforcement training which involves hitting rocks with rocks).
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I also don't get where people seem to get the idea that Manipulation = Telekinesis, when nothing couldn't be farther from the truth. It has nothing to do with making things move. (unless you give it the order to move and it then does so)
As I mentioned earlier, I completely fail to see the practical difference. Sure, there are a lot of manipulators who specialize in giving orders to living beings (Shalnark, kiss-girl, dog-guy, etc), but there are also manipulators who give orders to inanimate objects. And if you can make an inanimate object do whatever you want, what the hell is the difference when it comes to the end effect? You seem to be acting like it's just telepathy or mind control or something, when it's clearly not. The manipulated object doesn't need a "will" to be manipulated, which means you can use it as telekinesis, or at least to simulate telekinesis. And since telekinesis is not a thing that exists in real life, there is no difference whatsoever.
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Old 2013-06-11, 00:47   Link #3048
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And that's the point. Changing matter/substance's chemical and physical properties with your aura. It's not that only the aura changes.
I meant give the aura a taste. So the taster puts water + aura in his mouth, and tastes the aura. Like putting sugar in water, except there's no additional matter - that'd be conjuration.
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Old 2013-06-11, 00:57   Link #3049
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Except we never see any transmuter do that ever.
Yes we do, Biscuit.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You seem to be acting like it's just telepathy or mind control or something, when it's clearly not.
Ok I'm done. If you start putting words in my mouth there's clearly no point to this.
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Old 2013-06-11, 04:38   Link #3050
Toto y Moi
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Except we never see any transmuter do that ever. Hisoka makes his aura sticky and elastic. He doesn't change objects at all. Machi makes her aura thin and threadlike. She doesn't change objects at all. Killua makes his aura electric. He doesn't change objects at all.
You're missing one key point here--aura is an object.

So Hisoka transmutes his aura into a substance with the properties of gum and rubber. Machi transmutes her aura into the form of thread, alongside the properties of thread. Killua transmutes his aura into electricity. In Fullmetal Alchemist, Edward Elric can transmute concrete into metal. Object into object.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
As I mentioned earlier, I completely fail to see the practical difference. Sure, there are a lot of manipulators who specialize in giving orders to living beings (Shalnark, kiss-girl, dog-guy, etc), but there are also manipulators who give orders to inanimate objects. And if you can make an inanimate object do whatever you want, what the hell is the difference when it comes to the end effect? You seem to be acting like it's just telepathy or mind control or something, when it's clearly not. The manipulated object doesn't need a "will" to be manipulated, which means you can use it as telekinesis, or at least to simulate telekinesis. And since telekinesis is not a thing that exists in real life, there is no difference whatsoever.
Manipulation is control over the actions and motion of living objects or things. Transmutation allows one to change the form of things. Biscuit is not a Manipulator.
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Old 2013-06-11, 05:38   Link #3051
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Ok I'm done. If you start putting words in my mouth there's clearly no point to this.
And you're not putting words in my mouth? I never said telekinesis, you did.

So what do you think Manipulation is? You've said an awful lot about what you think it's not, but you haven't said what it is.
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Old 2013-06-11, 10:20   Link #3052
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I meant give the aura a taste. So the taster puts water + aura in his mouth, and tastes the aura. Like putting sugar in water, except there's no additional matter - that'd be conjuration.
There's no additional matter; it just changes its properties. It becomes something else. It transmutes. It's not the aura. It's the water what changes because of the aura.
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Old 2013-06-11, 14:02   Link #3053
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto y Moi View Post
You're missing one key point here--aura is an object.
No it's not. It's not made of matter.

Quote:
So Hisoka transmutes his aura into a substance with the properties of gum and rubber. Machi transmutes her aura into the form of thread, alongside the properties of thread. Killua transmutes his aura into electricity.
Yes. They all give their auras certain properties. That, I'll add, fall short of turning them into actual objects, because they're not conjurers.

Quote:
In Fullmetal Alchemist, Edward Elric can transmute concrete into metal. Object into object.
Completely different system. Irrelevant.

Quote:
Manipulation is control over the actions and motion of living objects or things.
No, it's not. Some manipulators manipulate inanimate objects (which is why the Troupe thought Kurapika might be a manipulator with a real chain).

Quote:
Transmutation allows one to change the form of things.
Transmutation transforms aura. People use objects to help give the aura a form, that's all.

Quote:
Biscuit is not a Manipulator.
We don't know for sure what she is. Her ability (the esthetician) makes use of conjuration, but it doesn't necessarily mean she's a conjurer. For her transformation, we don't even know if she uses nen at all. I'll note that Illumi's a manipulator, and can change his face. But, again, there's no certainty nen has anything to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
There's no additional matter; it just changes its properties. It becomes something else. It transmutes. It's not the aura. It's the water what changes because of the aura.
That's what I said - there is no matter.

We disagree on the rest, though.
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Old 2013-06-11, 15:28   Link #3054
Arkeus
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Transmutation was defined by Wing as well as other as "changing/shaping the AURA". Manpulation was defined as "manpulating/changing the MATTER".

This is why body-clone guy, Shalnark, mind-control kiss girl, etc, all used manipulation.

Hell, even the emission guy who gets killed in YKC with his black ballon guy army use manipulation in order to 'program' his balloon-army.

We also have a classic example of manipulation that is the same as Biscuit: Illumi.
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Old 2013-06-11, 16:30   Link #3055
Toto y Moi
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No it's not. It's not made of matter.

Yes. They all give their auras certain properties. That, I'll add, fall short of turning them into actual objects, because they're not conjurers.
Episode 39 opener: "Transmuters can use their aura to alter objects qualities."

This includes aura. Aura can become matter and Transmuters are literally directly next to Conjurers on the chart.

Also from the opener of episode 39, "Somewhat akin to Transmuters, Conjurers are able to manifest their aura."

Though aura is invisible to most people, its presence can still be felt by those who are unaware of its existence. Gon in episode 16, Killua in episode 28. It counts as an object.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Completely different system. Irrelevant.
You're picking at hairs. Obviously a simplified example for the sake of the argument and an example of what Transmutation can be. I could have said "alchemists believed that they could transmute metal into gold; object into object" and the point would've been the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, it's not. Some manipulators manipulate inanimate objects (which is why the Troupe thought Kurapika might be a manipulator with a real chain).
My post: "Manipulation is control over the actions and motion of living objects or things."

Perhaps you misunderstood due to my writing style. "Living objects" and "things" were supposed to be two distinct categories. Instead of things, substitute with a synonym I intended..."inanimate objects."

Again, from episode 39: "Manipulators can use their auras to control objects and creatures."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Transmutation transforms aura. People use objects to help give the aura a form, that's all.
It doesn't only transform the shape, that would be ridiculous. How would Hisoka have been able to give his aura the properties of rubber and gum? How would Killua have been able to give his aura the properties of electricity? Transmutation changes both the shape and the qualities of an object.

During water divination, Transmuters alter the taste of the water. OBJECT CHANGED.

The key point to understanding is that aura counts as an object in this series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
We don't know for sure what she is. Her ability (the esthetician) makes use of conjuration, but it doesn't necessarily mean she's a conjurer. For her transformation, we don't even know if she uses nen at all. I'll note that Illumi's a manipulator, and can change his face. But, again, there's no certainty nen has anything to do with it.
I believe the guidebook mentions that Biscuit is a Transmuter. Her ability makes use of Transmutation, Conjuration, and Emission.

You're right in saying that Illumi can change his face and that there's no certainty that Nen has anything to do with it. It may be an assassination art. Killua can sharpen his hands and can alter the qualities of his arms into whiplike snakes, but that isn't Nen either.
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Old 2013-06-13, 14:23   Link #3056
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
And you're not putting words in my mouth? I never said telekinesis, you did.
You said moving and rearranging. That's telekinesis.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
So what do you think Manipulation is? You've said an awful lot about what you think it's not, but you haven't said what it is.
As a matter of fact I did.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
a school that is about controlling the behavior of people, animals or objects
So did Toto, for that matter. Which is different from "mind control" in that it's not necessarily the mind that needs controlling. If it were mind control, controlling inanimate objects would become problematic.
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Old 2013-06-15, 23:20   Link #3057
Funkatron
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Those eyes...

Catgirl fetish or not, Neferpitou is someone you NEVER EVER want to meet in a dark alley
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Old 2013-06-15, 23:35   Link #3058
FlareKnight
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Spoiler for Ep84:
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Old 2013-06-15, 23:36   Link #3059
frubam
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Originally Posted by Funkatron View Post
Those eyes...

Catgirl fetish or not, Neferpitou is someone you NEVER EVER want to meet in a dark alley
Still, she's adorable as all hell (^,^), just in a very, very sinister way .
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Old 2013-06-15, 23:45   Link #3060
Guardian Enzo
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Still, she's adorable as all hell (^,^), just in a very, very sinister way .
I haven't even read the manga, and even I've heard that Togashi has said Neferpitou is male (could be false, I suppose). It certainly wouldn't be the first time in H x H he's introduced a male character people mistook for a female (I never thought so with Kurapika, but he got me with Kalluta).
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