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Old 2011-11-07, 16:00   Link #441
Anh_Minh
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I, too, disagree with saying that the spirit of the sushi test was mostly preserved.

The pig test was mostly about the candidates' ability to kill things. Being observant helped, but it was still pretty straightforward.

The sushi test really needed the candidates to be clever (unless they already knew what sushi was), but it wasn't impossible. At least, it wasn't intended to be so. Menchi went off track (and not just because of Hanzou, or she'd have just passed him), but I think she originally intended to pass any reasonable approximation of sushi.

In this version, though, they have to "observe" their cooking station and... come up, without any training, with a brand new gourmet-level recipe for pork? The test was faulty at the design stage. (Unless she planned to be like Buccha and pass everyone who could kill and burn a pig, but that'd be out of character.)
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Old 2011-11-08, 09:16   Link #442
Toto y Moi
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I, too, disagree with saying that the spirit of the sushi test was mostly preserved.

The pig test was mostly about the candidates' ability to kill things. Being observant helped, but it was still pretty straightforward.

The sushi test really needed the candidates to be clever (unless they already knew what sushi was), but it wasn't impossible. At least, it wasn't intended to be so. Menchi went off track (and not just because of Hanzou, or she'd have just passed him), but I think she originally intended to pass any reasonable approximation of sushi.

In this version, though, they have to "observe" their cooking station and... come up, without any training, with a brand new gourmet-level recipe for pork? The test was faulty at the design stage. (Unless she planned to be like Buccha and pass everyone who could kill and burn a pig, but that'd be out of character.)
Menchi expected a gourmet-level recipe for Sushi as well, though. Satotz and Buhara both comment on how picky she is as an eater and that there are only a handful of cooks in the world that can satisfy her. She doesn't pass Hanzo even though he was the first to make it right. Menchi is unreasonable from beginning until end--she gives the candidates a fairly difficult exam and then fails them all when the recipe doesn't live up to her own expectations.

In the new series, the condensed second phase tests everything that both rounds of the old one did. Just like in the sushi round, the new anime has the candidates be just as thoughtless when it comes to making food. How is the spirit missing?
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Old 2011-11-08, 10:37   Link #443
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Toto y Moi View Post
Menchi expected a gourmet-level recipe for Sushi as well, though. Satotz and Buhara both comment on how picky she is as an eater and that there are only a handful of cooks in the world that can satisfy her. She doesn't pass Hanzo even though he was the first to make it right. Menchi is unreasonable from beginning until end--she gives the candidates a fairly difficult exam and then fails them all when the recipe doesn't live up to her own expectations.

In the new series, the condensed second phase tests everything that both rounds of the old one did. Just like in the sushi round, the new anime has the candidates be just as thoughtless when it comes to making food. How is the spirit missing?
The spirit is the design of the exam. Yes, Menchi's character flaws are roughly the same, but the design of the exam is completely different.
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Old 2011-11-08, 12:56   Link #444
TheKage
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I will respectfully disagree with people about the Sushi exam. For me, the pig exam had always been a throw-away exam, to do more strength and wit testing on the examinees. I always though of Menchi becoming greatly unreasonable when so many dishes were presented to her that were not anywhere near close. Once Hanzo presented the dish she was unreasonable because she thought everyone was just incompetent. She gets so mad because of all the hints she gives them, not one person gets close. When the one person does get close, he spills the beans AND insults cooking. She completely loses her temper.

It's not also just the exam though. The small hints we get that make us think "Oh so there is some real life connections?" really start to come out here. "Japon" and the onigiri were developments that I thought enhanced this part in the manga. The interactions between examinees made this exam one of my favorite parts of the whole Hunter exam. Without the sushi exam, I felt like new exam just didn't have as much life to it that I got from the manga.

While it was a nice feat to have bee able to combine the two exams, I felt that it was still pretty lacking in the sensation and feelings I got from reading the manga. I am biased, because I loved this part of the manga a lot.
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Old 2011-11-08, 13:00   Link #445
Gooral
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@Clarste
Yep. Exam in Hunter x Hunter was the most unique conglomeration of tasks I've ever seen in any anime. The jobs they had to do in order to become a licensed Hunter required more than pure strength (unlike for example tasks in Naruto). Removing them cheapens the story and makes it another casual shounen anime out there. This anime is harmful to the Hunter x Hunter franchise and shows it in an unfavorable light. People won't even know what they've missed by not watching the 1999 version and even if they tried to watch it later they would be spoiled.
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Old 2011-11-08, 13:57   Link #446
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I expected people to hate on this show from being a fan of the original, though i never knew it was going to be this bad. Sigh.
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Old 2011-11-08, 14:16   Link #447
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I expected people to hate on this show from being a fan of the original, though i never knew it was going to be this bad. Sigh.
It's only 'this bad' because a decent amount of people feel the adaptation has also been 'this bad'. Obviously there will always be automatically dismissive purists here and there, but it's not impossible for adaptations to get overall favourable receptions (Fate/Zero being an obvious example this season). If it's not the case with this particular one, then it must be doing something wrong.
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Old 2011-11-08, 15:04   Link #448
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I expected people to hate on this show from being a fan of the original, though i never knew it was going to be this bad. Sigh.
I liked the first anime, but now I barely remember it. I had nothing bad to say about eps 1-4. But yeah, I really didn't like 5, and to a lesser extent, 6. It has nothing to do with the old anime.

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Originally Posted by TheKage View Post
I will respectfully disagree with people about the Sushi exam. For me, the pig exam had always been a throw-away exam, to do more strength and wit testing on the examinees.
Not really throwaway. They still went from 200 examinees to... 70 or so?

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Originally Posted by Toto y Moi View Post
Menchi expected a gourmet-level recipe for Sushi as well, though.
Not at the design stage. Yes, she went crazy once she was actually against the wall. But she didn't intend to.

Quote:
Satotz and Buhara both comment on how picky she is as an eater and that there are only a handful of cooks in the world that can satisfy her.
They also describe it as an involuntary, almost random compulsion. She can be reasonable... but not all the time. Should she have taken that into account? Yes. That's why she said she failed as an examiner. Even though the test she designed wasn't bad in itself, she went off track and denatured it because she lacked self-control.

Quote:
She doesn't pass Hanzo even though he was the first to make it right. Menchi is unreasonable from beginning until end--she gives the candidates a fairly difficult exam and then fails them all when the recipe doesn't live up to her own expectations.
Yes. She was out of control before Hanzo made his offering. The real reason is a minor manga spoiler (blink and you'll miss it, like Netero's taste for boobs), which may be brought up in a future ep.

Quote:
In the new series, the condensed second phase tests everything that both rounds of the old one did. Just like in the sushi round, the new anime has the candidates be just as thoughtless when it comes to making food. How is the spirit missing?
The point I've been belaboring is that, even though Menchi ultimately failed to perform her role as an examiner, the test itself wasn't badly designed.

The pig test, OTOH, was unpassable right from the start, unless you happened to be a cook.
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Old 2011-11-08, 17:27   Link #449
TheKage
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not really throwaway. They still went from 200 examinees to... 70 or so?
I meant throw-away as in the impact on the reader and its memorability. I've always felt that it wasn't as remarkable as the sushi exam and the elimination of examinees is something that can easily done by a myriad of ways. It had added to the diversity of what the Hunter Exams test in potential Hunters but it just wasn't remarkable. It was just a fast way to cut the examinees down.
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Old 2011-11-08, 17:35   Link #450
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Hello there, I'm one of those fans of the 1999 ver. I, myself, haven't watch a single episode of the 2011 version yet. Thus, I've been going back and forth this thread to check out the development of the new series. Actually, I plan to give this series a try after it has reached the 10th episode, but from the posts and comments so far, things aren't looking good (the omission of Kite/Kaito & sushi test, the censorship and all). So, I'd really like to ask for those who've seen it: from the fan of the 1999 anime PoV, will this series be a good watch? Coz I really don't want to waste my time watching anime that will turned out bad (for me). Thanx in advance!
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Old 2011-11-09, 00:24   Link #451
orion
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I expected people to hate on this show from being a fan of the original, though i never knew it was going to be this bad. Sigh.
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
It's only 'this bad' because a decent amount of people feel the adaptation has also been 'this bad'. Obviously there will always be automatically dismissive purists here and there, but it's not impossible for adaptations to get overall favourable receptions (Fate/Zero being an obvious example this season). If it's not the case with this particular one, then it must be doing something wrong.
Actually, I think that it's more the 1999 fans thinking that they're going to get the same thing as in 1999. Unfortunately, tastes have changed since then. A more faster paced title is very desireable as attention spans are shorter nowadays so condensing this part of the exams is prob for the best.

I'm still having a ball with this version.
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Old 2011-11-09, 01:06   Link #452
Clarste
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Personally, I'm not really a fan of the 1999 version either. Overall, I'd say this new series handles the material better than the 1999 version, except for episode 6. I'm particularly annoyed because I had expected more from this series.
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Old 2011-11-09, 01:54   Link #453
Toto y Moi
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not really throwaway. They still went from 200 examinees to... 70 or so?
Agreed. 148 to 70 applicants. More people ended up failing Buhara's exam than Menchi's in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not at the design stage. Yes, she went crazy once she was actually against the wall. But she didn't intend to.
Sushi is one of those foods that only tastes good if a seasoned professional makes it in the first place--Menchi mentions this and even goes as far to say that it would take everyone in that room ten years to learn how to make good sushi. I got the feeling that Menchi never really intended to pass anyone unless they impressed her palate; due to her prejudices, the test was unfair for the candidates.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They also describe it as an involuntary, almost random compulsion. She can be reasonable... but not all the time. Should she have taken that into account? Yes. That's why she said she failed as an examiner. Even though the test she designed wasn't bad in itself, she went off track and denatured it because she lacked self-control.
Involuntary, sure. But in the end, it was still a taste test that she had to judge. Menchi is known for being picky and irrational; her acknowledging being reasonable only manifested itself when her superior pointed it out.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes. She was out of control before Hanzo made his offering. The real reason is a minor manga spoiler (blink and you'll miss it, like Netero's taste for boobs), which may be brought up in a future ep.
I didn't want to mention it, so I just didn't bring it up. The reasoning sort of lends itself to the argument I want to make, but it's difficult to do so since it's a spoiler. Once that scene airs, I can point out a large blunder in episode 9 of the 1999 series.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The point I've been belaboring is that, even though Menchi ultimately failed to perform her role as an examiner, the test itself wasn't badly designed.

The pig test, OTOH, was unpassable right from the start, unless you happened to be a cook.
I'm not sure this is the case. I was under the impression that the sushi test was sort of impossible to begin with. She gives some good clues as to what she wants, but sushi is typically made with saltwater fish--Menchi's never had sushi made with freshwater fish before, and possibly wouldn't even like what she got. If the test was well designed from the beginning, then she should have passed Hanzo. But it ended up being that unless one was a professional cook (and a good one, at that), Menchi wouldn't have passed a single candidate.

The pig test in the Madhouse version tested ingenuity and creativity just like the sushi test did. The meal was never intended to be gourmet-level, but it needed to exude something special. In the Madhouse version, Todo and a good number of the other candidates insult Gourmet Hunters before the second phase even begins. She's visibly upset by this after it happens. Then the candidates sort of disrespect her by not taking the exam seriously--none of the tools are used; all the candidates do is roast the pig over a hot flame and turn it in. In the sushi exam, candidates did something similar--they just threw a raw fish whole into rice and called it a day. What Menchi wants--creativity, ingenuity, and passion--is being dismissed because the candidates believe her phase is a "gimme."
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Old 2011-11-09, 05:36   Link #454
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Well, this is fun. I suddenly got bad-repped by someone for my earlier post. I wonder why, coz I didnít post any hate message(s) toward HxH 2011 in that post nor I intend to start flame wars (which, as I recall, is already happened pages ago). All I wanted was some opinions/answers for my question regarding HxH 2011. Can anybody tell me what I did wrong in my previous post? I could use some constructive criticism.

My question still stands, btw. peace.
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Old 2011-11-09, 06:14   Link #455
yomisama
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I expected people to hate on this show from being a fan of the original, though i never knew it was going to be this bad. Sigh.
Hmmm...that's called creating a straw man and then beating it up.

I am a self-admitted fan of the HxH manga and 1999 version. I gave, and will continue to give, the 2011 version a shot.

It would appear that the inclusion/exclusion of the sushi test is purely down to one's opinion. Just as the 2011 fans can't understand why the 1999 fans thought the sushi test was so ingenius and witty, we 1999 fans find it rather specious to suggest that the pork test involved ingenuity in any sort of way other than figuring out the weakness of the pork's head.

Chapter 11 - page 50 - the pork test was meant to be "a test of courage and dexterity."

Chapter 11 - page 50 - Menchi says she's "cautious" as to taste.

Chapter 11 - page 52 - Menchi says "even if you've never seen them you can still make it. I'll give you a hand."

Chapter 11 - pages 52 to 53 - Menchi proceeds to drop a number of clues.

Capter 11 - pages 54-55 - candidates start to experiment with the ingredients and tools in front of them.

Chapter 11 - page 58-59 - Menchi says she's here "more as a cook than as a jury" while Buhara contemplates that if Menchi's "bad habits" did not show up she would be fine.

Chapter 11 - page 60 - Menchi rejects Leorio's sushi not for its taste but for its appearance and shape.

Chapter 11 - page 63 - Hanzo blurts out the secret to making sushi. Menchi goes nuts. Menchi admits to Hanzo that it will take 10 years practice to make good sushi and the candidates therefore never make good sushi. Hanzo then asks Menchi why she even set the test. Menchi avoids answering the question. Buhara confirms that Menchi has lost it.

Chapter 12 - page 68 - Buhara says that the jury/examiners were to make sure the candidates respected "the essential points"

Chapter 12 - page 71 - Mr 'Bean' says that what Menchi did wasn't agreed - that is the goal of the test was to make the participants use their observational and concentration abilities.

Chapter 12 - page ?? - Netero criticises Menchi about the severity of her judging.

Based on the the above, I could form no view other than that, in the manga/1999 version, Menchi's design of the test first and foremost was about intelligence, observation and powers of deduction (hence the equipment and the verbal clues). There were 'danger signs' at the start of the sushi test that Menchi may go beyond judging the candidates based on how close they could get to replicating the sushi with just the hints and equipment they've been given. The test is ruined because Hanzo gave the answer away. Menchi does let her prejudice affect her judging, but otherwise Buhara and Mr Bean has acknowledged that the test itself is fine.

Menchi failing everyone based on the taste of sushi was to create some tension and drama in the second phase of the test.

However, if you still maintain that the sushi test was designed only to test candidates based on their ability to cook a great tasting sushi, I can understand why you would consider the sushi test irrelevant and 'mergeable' with the pork test.

I personally am still at a loss as to how the 2011 pork test could in any way genuinely fit the characterisation of a test which requires 'observation' or 'deduction' or 'logic' or 'intelligence'.

Quote:
In the sushi exam, candidates did something similar--they just threw a raw fish whole into rice and called it a day.
In the manga/1999 version, candidates are seen picking up and examining the tools, Leorio is trying to make something with his hands. The point is if they were unobservant and couldn't produce the 'form' of sushi, then they probably weren't smart enough to become qualified as Hunters.

I'm still looking forward to the next episode. I'm genuinely intrigued as to how they will show Killua killing 2 random candidates after withdrawing from the ball game given the apparent sensorship.

Last edited by yomisama; 2011-11-09 at 06:30.
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Old 2011-11-09, 08:48   Link #456
kakakka
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Quote:
Based on the the above, I could form no view other than that, in the manga/1999 version, Menchi's design of the test first and foremost was about intelligence, observation and powers of deduction (hence the equipment and the verbal clues). There were 'danger signs' at the start of the sushi test that Menchi may go beyond judging the candidates based on how close they could get to replicating the sushi with just the hints and equipment they've been given. The test is ruined because Hanzo gave the answer away.
It was supposed to be, but it should be obvious too in the manga that what she really have in mind is to challenge the examinees based on her preference, not about if they can do it based on observation, etc. From the start, she is already going beyond what she's supposed to do.

Also, before Hanzo, no one is close to passing. If there is measurement among candidates, Hanzo is the only one close to passing, but he failed. They are doomed to fail in the first place.

Quote:
Menchi does let her prejudice affect her judging, but otherwise Buhara and Mr Bean has acknowledged that the test itself is fine.
Mr Beans did not say anything of sort in the manga. Buhara is also doubting her judgement from the start.
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Old 2011-11-09, 09:04   Link #457
rinichan
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unless people dont know episode 5 rated
3.9 rank 11
and the latest episode (6) is
4.1 rank 12
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Old 2011-11-09, 15:57   Link #458
yomisama
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
It was supposed to be, but it should be obvious too in the manga that what she really have in mind is to challenge the examinees based on her preference, not about if they can do it based on observation, etc. From the start, she is already going beyond what she's supposed to do.

Also, before Hanzo, no one is close to passing. If there is measurement among candidates, Hanzo is the only one close to passing, but he failed. They are doomed to fail in the first place.


Mr Beans did not say anything of sort in the manga. Buhara is also doubting her judgement from the start.
There may be no difference to you but to me there is a difference between the test and the judging. Menchi screwed up big time with the judging. No one disagrees. In fact we were warned right from the start.

menchi would stop assessing candidates until she was full. Up til Hanzo she hadn't eaten a single one. Point is she should hace passed Hanzo or set him another task since he already knew the answer. Mr bean and Netero implicitly approved the test but not the jugung.

I guess if you make no distinction between the test and the way it was (not) supposed to be judged then this point is clearly moot.
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Old 2011-11-09, 16:36   Link #459
kakakka
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Mr bean and Netero implicitly approved the test but not the jugung.
They approved that she'll make a test based on what they agreed on, which is about observation and concentration. It's up to the Gourmet Hunters to think of the rest. And the sushi test is thought up by Menchi based on how she wanted to challenge the examinees.

And I don't understand what you meant about the paragraph with Hanzo. Based on what she's expecting, it doesn't matter if he knows about making sushi or not; he's still have to go through the test and her assessment.
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Old 2011-11-09, 16:46   Link #460
Clarste
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I think the assumption is that the examiners submit proposals to the examination committee for approval before they actually get implemented. After all, the committee needs to make actually make all the arrangements necessary to let the test happen. Do you really think Menchi bought all the cooking equipment, brought it to a marsh in the middle of nowhere and set it up all by herself? The committee obviously needs to be involved in preparing for the exam. The idea that the committee just assigned her a vague task of "test them on observation" and then let her do whatever is kind of absurd.

Given that they knew what the test was supposed to be beforehand, it only makes sense to have an understandable test that a third party could agree makes sense. Which is lacking in the 2011 anime. The judging and the test are logically separate things.

Then again, Hunters are pretty weird people, so I guess it's theoretically possible that they just gave her a large budget and told her to go wild. That seems a bit unlikely to me though.
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