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Old 2011-07-28, 22:32   Link #61
Akashin
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Originally Posted by thermopyle View Post
His whole plan of disturbing the army by keeping the dead shinobis personalities intact hasn't helped. Like at all. In fact it seems to have been pretty detrimental since they seem to be getting talked-no-jutsu back to the afterlife. Wiping out their personalities would negate that and he'd still have powerhouses. Oro got it right, wiping out their original selves with blank killing machines.
To be fair (sort of; it's still Kishi's fault either way), he drove himself into a corner the moment he started having Kabuto use Edo Tensei on such a large scale. From that moment on, we were doomed to face either talk-no-jutsu ad nauseum, or contrived sealing methods ad nauseum. The latter would have been preferable just because we've still seen so little Fuinjutsu, but it would have gotten just as annoying and repetitive eventually.
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Old 2011-07-29, 01:03   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
To be fair (sort of; it's still Kishi's fault either way), he drove himself into a corner the moment he started having Kabuto use Edo Tensei on such a large scale. From that moment on, we were doomed to face either talk-no-jutsu ad nauseum, .
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Old 2011-07-29, 01:15   Link #63
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^ Unfortunately Kishi has been lacking in the interesting Fuinjutsu. He seems to really like laundry-no-justu. Wrap a zombie in cloth and slap a sealing tag on them. Seems to be a specialty of the Suna females. I wonder how fast the girls in Suna can sort whites and colors?

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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
Given there are no sealers nearby, this seems to be the only way to defeat Itachi and Nagato. This is Naruto we are talking about. The master of talk-no-jutsu.
This is likely how Naruto will defeat both of them. Nagato and Itachi are now converts to Narutism. You can't even escape it in death. Kabuto doesn't seem to have enough power to take control of both so there is nothing he can do. After Itachi explains the crow, there is no point to his character. He fulfilled his role in the plot. So his soul/whatever will be released.

Naruto doesn't know about Konan. His last memory of her was getting flowers and hearing her intention of leading the Hidden Rain. Nagato will never learn of her death by Madara unless Naruto learns it from one of his clones. BTW, I guess Naruto now has almost unlimited chakra. It's just ridiculous.
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Old 2011-07-29, 04:17   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Banshō Ten'in? Animal Path-esque Summoning? He might not literally be showing the Rinnegan (might be mistaking that), but those are definitely Rinnegan techniques...

Edit: To clarify, while he doesn't have the Six Paths, his status as the Seventh Path should be intact, and definitely appears to be.
Oh! So there is a seventh body which is of course Nagato and he contains all the ability of the Rinnegan and can use it all at the same time rather than the Six Paths which is limited with one ability only………my bad not knowing about that. Thanks anyway.



And yeah…. why majority of the post about the raven speculations seem is for counter-attacking the MS….you know it, right? That MS is the ultimate source of power for Sasuke, I mean, the source of his Amaterasu and Susanoo and all………if that raven put to Naruto by Itachi is for stopping that, then Sasuke will be left vulnerable and worthless. He doesn’t stand a chance against Naruto then.

And so, I’m thinking the opposite side which might the raven is meant for weakening Naruto. I remember when Sasuke use his MS to Bee before and his MS doesn’t stand a chance against the power of the jinjuriki so I’m assuming that Naruto’s jinjuriki is powerful enough for countering the MS.

Itachi have high hopes to Naruto that he will still able to redeem Sasuke(me too) …..and so I don’t think he’s planning to hurt his little brother by giving more power to Naruto. Itachi know it, that Naruto himself is much much much more enough to redeem Sasuke. And if Kishi wants the final battle of Naruto vs. Sasuke more exciting. He must make Sasuke be equal footing to Naruto. (but seems like the raven is unfair..)
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Old 2011-07-29, 06:03   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
And yeah…. why majority of the post about the raven speculations seem is for counter-attacking the MS….you know it, right? That MS is the ultimate source of power for Sasuke, I mean, the source of his Amaterasu and Susanoo and all………if that raven put to Naruto by Itachi is for stopping that, then Sasuke will be left vulnerable and worthless. He doesn’t stand a chance against Naruto then.
Or it's probably a little talk left by Itachi:

Sasuke: Mangekyou Sharingan!
*crow comes out of Naruto's mouth*
Naruto: *barfs*
Crow-Itachi: Hello, brother. Madara lied to you and he was a piece of ****. Actually, Madara went to Konoha and smashed it with the Nine-Tails.
Madara: S***.
Sasuke: MADARA YOU F***ING LIAR!!!!!!!! AMATERASU!
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Old 2011-07-29, 07:51   Link #66
Akashin
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Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
Oh! So there is a seventh body which is of course Nagato and he contains all the ability of the Rinnegan and can use it all at the same time rather than the Six Paths which is limited with one ability only………my bad not knowing about that. Thanks anyway.
He said as much after Naruto took out the Deva Path; he said that as the Seventh Path he has all the powers of the Six Paths, plus the resurrection jutsu only he had access to. My guess was that the Six Paths were a backup plan he came up with after his body started crapping out on him, but Madara using the Six Paths for seemingly no discernible reason (other than, "Why not?") throws a bit of a wrench in that theory.

Then again, he could just be using them for the extra pairs of eyes to cover blind spots, since unlike Nagato he can fight alongside his Six Paths. Whatever.

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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Or it's probably a little talk left by Itachi:

Sasuke: Mangekyou Sharingan!
*crow comes out of Naruto's mouth*
Naruto: *barfs*
Crow-Itachi: Hello, brother. Madara lied to you and he was a piece of ****. Actually, Madara went to Konoha and smashed it with the Nine-Tails.
Madara: S***.
Sasuke: MADARA YOU F***ING LIAR!!!!!!!! AMATERASU!
I could see the crow perhaps being something like this, though I have a lot of trouble swallowing that Itachi could have shown this level of foresight (and his surprise at learning that Madara twisted Sasuke implies he didn't fully anticipate it). That said, I agree that removing Sasuke's MS removes any and all challenge from their fight. Not that Sasuke could really stand up to Naruto with anything but Genjutsu at this point anyway...
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Old 2011-07-29, 07:52   Link #67
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Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
Oh! So there is a seventh body which is of course Nagato and he contains all the ability of the Rinnegan and can use it all at the same time rather than the Six Paths which is limited with one ability only………my bad not knowing about that. Thanks anyway.



And yeah…. why majority of the post about the raven speculations seem is for counter-attacking the MS….you know it, right? That MS is the ultimate source of power for Sasuke, I mean, the source of his Amaterasu and Susanoo and all………if that raven put to Naruto by Itachi is for stopping that, then Sasuke will be left vulnerable and worthless. He doesn’t stand a chance against Naruto then.

And so, I’m thinking the opposite side which might the raven is meant for weakening Naruto. I remember when Sasuke use his MS to Bee before and his MS doesn’t stand a chance against the power of the jinjuriki so I’m assuming that Naruto’s jinjuriki is powerful enough for countering the MS.

Itachi have high hopes to Naruto that he will still able to redeem Sasuke(me too) …..and so I don’t think he’s planning to hurt his little brother by giving more power to Naruto. Itachi know it, that Naruto himself is much much much more enough to redeem Sasuke. And if Kishi wants the final battle of Naruto vs. Sasuke more exciting. He must make Sasuke be equal footing to Naruto. (but seems like the raven is unfair..)
Naruto has no defence against genjutsu, thus the moment Sasuke uses tsukuyomi it's game over for Naruto. Thus my guess is it's a Tsukuyomi counter.
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Old 2011-07-29, 10:30   Link #68
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
Naruto has no defence against genjutsu, thus the moment Sasuke uses tsukuyomi it's game over for Naruto. Thus my guess is it's a Tsukuyomi counter.
In all fairness, Sasuke's Tsukiyomi is rather pathetic compared to Itachi's. We haven't seen it maintain effect on a target for more than a few seconds, and he can't even manipulate perception of time within the illusion.
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Old 2011-07-29, 10:32   Link #69
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Maybe Naruto doesn't need a counter for genjutsu. Maybe Kishi can pull a Kubo by simply ignoring Sasuke's genjutsu abilities during their final battle.
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Old 2011-07-29, 10:40   Link #70
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
In all fairness, Sasuke's Tsukiyomi is rather pathetic compared to Itachi's. We haven't seen it maintain effect on a target for more than a few seconds, and he can't even manipulate perception of time within the illusion.
Who knows what having the EMS might do to that though. Given that he remarked about being able to feel Itachi's power, I'm willing to guess his Genjutsu will be at least somewhat more powerful.
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Old 2011-07-29, 11:12   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
In all fairness, Sasuke's Tsukiyomi is rather pathetic compared to Itachi's. We haven't seen it maintain effect on a target for more than a few seconds, and he can't even manipulate perception of time within the illusion.
True, however just imagine Naruto being imobilized for 5 seconds. Those black flames have all the time they need to end the fight rather soon.
The fight with Danzo showed us that it doesn't need to be all powerfull or have a long duration a small but effective change was enough to end the fight with Danzo.
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Old 2011-07-29, 11:34   Link #72
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Since Itachi died tsukuyomi has been downplayed alot by Kishi, simply because it's so overpowered. Consider that Itachi only used that jutsu on Sasuke and Kakashi, where Kakashi was used to show just how powerful it is, and for Sasuke it was one of the biggest obstacles to overcome. Even if Sasuke can't alter the victim's perception of time, the whole point of tsukuyomi compared to other genjutsu is that the user has complete control over his victim and he can even kill the victim from within the genjutsu.

The only reason Danzo was able to escape Sasuke's tsukuyomi was thanks to the trap seal he placed earlier on Sasuke without the later noticing. Danzo was fortunate that he had a great understanding of MS jutsu and was able to plan ahead, while Sasuke was fighting Danzo without knowing anything about his techniques. If it wasn't for Danzo's foresight, the fight would have ended as soon as tsukuyomi was cast.

As for the genjutsu that tricked Danzo in the end, I think that was just a normal genjutsu, though not 100% sure.
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Old 2011-07-29, 13:47   Link #73
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I hope Itachi says more about what he thinks should be done with Sasuke than telling Naruto to "take care of him." Vague much?
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Old 2011-07-29, 14:26   Link #74
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Seems that there is a consensus now that Tsukuyomi is confirmed to not require manipulation of time as senior forum member Hunter had suggested.

Tsukuyomi is simply a more powerful form of Genjutsu that allows control of all senses.
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Old 2011-07-29, 14:57   Link #75
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tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that puts the mind of the afflicted inside a world which the caster can manipulate freely at will, like a god

I assume the body itself just sorta slumps to the ground for the duration of the genjutsu (or just stands still), the afflicted cannot control it, but the caster also cannot make it move, it's not mind-control


only Itachi so far has shown the degree of mastery with it that also allows for time to pass much faster inside the illusion then in the outside world
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Old 2011-07-29, 17:17   Link #76
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What Sasuke uses is not Tsukiyomi, it's just some MS genjutsu. Sure with Itachi's eyes Sasuke may be able to use Tsukiyomi, but we will see that only in the big Naruto vs Sasuke battle.
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Old 2011-07-29, 17:33   Link #77
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Didn't Sasuke use what appeared to be Tsukuyomi on that random Kumo nin while gathering intel on where Killer Bee was, or am I misremembering?
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Old 2011-07-29, 18:50   Link #78
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Originally Posted by epyon96 View Post
Seems that there is a consensus now that Tsukuyomi is confirmed to not require manipulation of time as senior forum member Hunter had suggested.

Tsukuyomi is simply a more powerful form of Genjutsu that allows control of all senses.
Actually I suggested exactly the opposite.
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Old 2011-07-29, 19:47   Link #79
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You still need to master both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in order to get access to the third technique: Susanoo. The idea that Sasuke hasn't used Tsukuyomi is ridiculous. The assumption here isn't that Sasuke has achieved Tsukuyomi. It's quite obvious that Kishi made the distinction between Sasu's version of Tsukuyomi and it is vastly inferior to Itachi, compared to his mastery of Amaterasu vs Itachi.

Here the assumption is that regular genjutsu cast from an MS Sharingan should be more powerful than a Three-tomoe sharingan and that Sasuke never actually used Tsukuyomi so far. I call bullshit.
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Old 2011-07-29, 20:15   Link #80
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No, to be able to access Susanoo you need to master the MS in both your eyes, which in Sasuke's case has been with Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. Sasuke has never once mentioned the name of Tsukuyomi and his various usage of Genjutsu never had control over space and time which the defining aspect of Tsukuyomi.
The only single thing over which you can build the assumption that Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi is the inverted color theme that was used once during his fight against Killer Bee.
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