AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Steins;Gate

Notices

View Poll Results: Steins;Gate - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 40 47.06%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 30.59%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.94%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 9.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-08-11, 07:25   Link #121
Kusa-San
I'll end it before April.
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Seeing how FB would probably be one of the characters already mentioned at least once or twice, I had this random theory that FB is

Spoiler:


Ah ah, I'm with you on this one. For me, it can't me Mr Braun because of what happened with Suzuka. So I really think it's Nae espcially after what she did to Mayuri (she killed her after all). Futhermore, Nae was always portrayed as being close to Mayuri. She fears Okarin too. I'm telling you, she is the mastermind behind evrything !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by matapat View Post
I honestly can't understand why Moeka is getting relentlessly white-knighted like this. Reckoner's got the right of it, she's already committed crimes even in this world's timeline, stealing the computer and selling out Okabe & Co. to SERN which is inevitably leading the world to tragedy.
Same here. She deserves this punch and it's only a punch !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroryoko1974 View Post
Moeka is a crazy bitch. FB will be Mayuri herself or Kirusu
ROFL, Mayuri being FB mean that she plan to kill herself
__________________
Kusa-San is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 07:26   Link #122
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Prior to Okabe making his move on her, Moeka was pretty much catatonic as far as her responsiveness to outside stimuli. If his goal really was just the phone itself, he could have easily put Moeka out via any number of improvisational methods.
Care to give an example? The reason she was so catatonic to outside stimuli was because she was so fixated on her phone. And the reason she was so fixated on her phone was because her life literally depended on it. So long as she was conscious she wasn't going to give up that phone, nor was she going to let it out of her hand (she didn't before, even when she was sane).
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 07:37   Link #123
maplehurry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Quote:
ROFL, Mayuri being FB mean that she plan to kill herself
It makes sense since that means she gets to have okarin for herself.
maplehurry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 07:49   Link #124
Sylky
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jupiter
The scene of Okarin/Moeka was sorta the scene from Shuffle! Rin/Kaede scence in the hospital with both Moeka and Kaede in the catatonic state then waking up after finding out the truth.
Sylky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 07:51   Link #125
Gohan78
Awakened One
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Let's make one thing clear. Okabe didn't slug Moeka in the face out of any so-called 'necessity'. As a matter of fact, he didn't impulsively try to grab her cell phone out of her hands for that reason either. That was sheer hatred, frustration, and the desire to hurt someone that'd taken something precious away from him at work there. Pure emotionality.
If Okabe was driven by pure hatred, he would have assaulted Moeka the moment he put foot into her apartment. Instead he first tried to call out to her, then, seeing that she was unresponsive, he tried to snatch away her phone. Only when she resisted, he remembered Mayuri's murder and hit her.
His main objective was getting hold of Moeka's phone, not hurting her.
Okabe's actions are, if not commendable, completely justifiable.
__________________
Tibi, magnum Innominandum,
signa stellarum nigrarum
et bufaniformis Sadoquae sigilim.
(De Vermis Mysteriis)
Gohan78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 08:54   Link #126
RadiantBeam
Test Drive
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to RadiantBeam Send a message via Skype™ to RadiantBeam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Ah ah, I'm with you on this one. For me, it can't me Mr Braun because of what happened with Suzuka. So I really think it's Nae espcially after what she did to Mayuri (she killed her after all). Futhermore, Nae was always portrayed as being close to Mayuri. She fears Okarin too. I'm telling you, she is the mastermind behind evrything !!
Well, judging from the preview for the next episode, something is definitely up with Nae. She doesn't look very sane at all.
__________________
RadiantBeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 09:13   Link #127
Sylky
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jupiter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Ah ah, I'm with you on this one. For me, it can't me Mr Braun because of what happened with Suzuka. So I really think it's Nae espcially after what she did to Mayuri (she killed her after all). Futhermore, Nae was always portrayed as being close to Mayuri. She fears Okarin too. I'm telling you, she is the mastermind behind evrything !!
Not sure about Mr Braun how dont you know he wanted to revive Suzuha using the time machine/D-mail to change the past so she never died?
Sylky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 10:23   Link #128
Triple_R
Ho Ho Honoka!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Let's make one thing clear. Okabe didn't slug Moeka in the face out of any so-called 'necessity'.
There was a lot of ugliness in this episode, and that included Okabe's actions to be sure.

But I don't see how anybody can deny that at least some of that ugliness was in fact necessary, given the circumstances.

Simply put, Okabe had to get that cell-phone. That was necessary in order to carry out his plan to save Mayuri.

Now, I don't doubt he took a degree of satisfaction in punching the face that belongs to Mayuri's killer. Even so, though, he really did need that phone. It quickly became clear that the use of physical force would be necessary in order to get the phone.


Quote:
And frankly, the way Moeka has so clearly been portrayed as a weak and emotionally fragile/broken individual, I am astonished that so many of you have called out for even worse to have been done to her.
I do think that Moeka is probably deserving of more sympathy than what we've seen her receive so far. That doesn't negate the practical necessity of some of Okabe's actions here, though.


Quote:
If his goal really was just the phone itself, he could have easily put Moeka out via any number of improvisational methods.
How so? You mean with something like a pressure point strike?

Well, if so, Okabe may simply lack knowledge of, or training in, such methods. The punch method may have been the best one he had to work with.


One thing I want to say here is that I don't see why Moeka's gender should matter given the circumstances.

Now, I'm strongly against violence against women. So much so that I ended up disagreeing with Kyon's attempt to punch Haruhi in the Sigh arc of Haruhi 2009.

But even so, there are exceptions at the extreme margins of most things.

When Okabe sees Moeka, he sees the person who killed his dearest friend. At that point, I'm not sure why gender should even matter.

I mean, if somebody killed your dearest friend or loved one in cold blood, does that killer's gender really matter in how you'll feel about that killer? Will you think, 'Dang, my wife's killer is a woman. Guess that means I have to totally put aside any negative feelings I have for my wife's killer, and not desire revenge on her whatsoever.'

Now, my one issue with Okabe here is that this isn't the same Moeka that killed Mayuri. But if she was the same Moeka, why should her gender matter?

Again, she's the person who killed his best friend!


Quote:
Okabe is frankly, pretty stupid. Compared to Daru and Kurisu, his technical expertise is pretty much non-existent.
I will say that I wish we would get to see more of Okabe's scientific brilliance on display. His charisma comes out wonderfully in many a Steins;Gate episode, but I honestly wish this anime would at least occasionally give him the high-falutin' technobabble dialogue of a Reed Richards or a Data.

With Daru and Kurisu, we get to see them actually build and invent things. So they kind of get to prove their intellectual/scientific worth that way. We don't get as much of that with Okabe, and that is a bit of a shame yeah.


Quote:
He constantly overlooks numerous plot-obvious developments such as the fact that Moeka's D-mail was never about anything as mundane as whether or not to get a new cell-phone.
That was bad, yeah, I have to admit.

I don't think that Okabe is stupid, though, so much as he occasionally takes leave of his common sense. Perhaps it's a side-effect of playing the "mad scientist" persona so much.

Aside from a couple scenes, though, it doesn't bother me much. Two facepalm-worthy scenes over 19 episodes isn't too bad for a male lead, in my view. I've certainly seen a whole hell of a lot worse.


On the whole, I can understand your issues with Okabe, even if I diagree with them somewhat. However, your criticisms of Steins;Gate as a whole surprises me a bit.

This anime has a superb sci-fi plot, in my view. Possibly the best handling of time travel, as a concept, that I've ever seen in anime. Much more interesting than the basic time-loops, or "ensuring the past unfolds as recorded", that I've seen elsewhere. The butterfly effect is much more dramatically and intriguingly applied here than in most other anime shows I've seen that incorporate time travel into their narratives.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 10:36   Link #129
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
One thing I want to say here is that I don't see why Moeka's gender should matter given the circumstances.

Now, I'm strongly against violence against women. So much so that I ended up disagreeing with Kyon's attempt to punch Haruhi in the Sigh arc of Haruhi 2009.

But even so, there are exceptions at the extreme margins of most things.

When Okabe sees Moeka, he sees the person who killed his dearest friend. At that point, I'm not sure why gender should even matter.

I mean, if somebody killed your dearest friend or loved one in cold blood, does that killer's gender really matter in how you'll feel about that killer? Will you think, 'Dang, my wife's killer is a woman. Guess that means I have to totally put aside any negative feelings I have for my wife's killer, and not desire revenge on her whatsoever.'

Now, my one issue with Okabe here is that this isn't the same Moeka that killed Mayuri. But if she was the same Moeka, why should her gender matter?

Again, she's the person who killed his best friend! .
To be fair, I don't think SF thought it was bad because she's a woman.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 10:39   Link #130
Triple_R
Ho Ho Honoka!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
To be fair, I don't think SF thought it was bad because she's a woman.
You're probably right.

But there have been a few posts on this thread that have suggested that Okabe punching Moeka was unacceptable, basically because of her gender, and that was what I was responding to there.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 11:21   Link #131
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Care to give an example? The reason she was so catatonic to outside stimuli was because she was so fixated on her phone. And the reason she was so fixated on her phone was because her life literally depended on it. So long as she was conscious she wasn't going to give up that phone, nor was she going to let it out of her hand (she didn't before, even when she was sane).
:P By "Put Moeka out" I was precisely saying that Okabe could/should have knocked Moeka unconscious before trying to take her phone from her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
He may have been able to put her out of commission more peacefully before attempting to steal her phone, but as you said, Moeka was almost in a catatonic state and he most likely didn't expect her to react so violently. And from his point of view, she obviously didn't deserve to be treated with extra thoughtfulness.
As Haak mentioned, the reason why Moeka was so catatonic was precisely because she was so fixated on her phone. It was flippin' obvious that Moeka was gonna resist violently if Okabe tried to take it away. As such, the only reasons Okabe could have proceeded as he did anyway were either 1. because he was arrogant enough to think that he'd have no problems even if Moeka did end up resisting him physically or 2., as you've mentioned, he simply didn't care (i.e. wanted Moeka to experience the pain and frustration of having her phone taken away from her).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, I don't doubt he took a degree of satisfaction in punching the face that belongs to Mayuri's killer. Even so, though, he really did need that phone. It quickly became clear that the use of physical force would be necessary in order to get the phone.
There are a lot of ways to use force. I don't disagree that obtaining the phone was probably necessary. A flat-out desperate, vicious struggle wasn't, though. This is as much in terms of Okabe's safety as of Moeka's, frankly. There were several instances as Okabe ignored the raving Moeka where I thought in a more realistic series he could have expected to have been stabbed with a knife.

Quote:
How so? You mean with something like a pressure point strike?
Pressure points, asphyxiation/strangulation, a good old knock to the head (er, maybe lol. This is probably a lot less safe in reality than it is in fiction). A tranquilizer/sedative would be ideal--could he have entertained the idea of running back out and getting one? Contrary to what I meant by 'putting her out', even simple bondage (i.e. tying her up) would have been safer and gentler. As I said, given Moeka was completely not responding to him, he had all the time in the world to improvise.

Quote:
On the whole, I can understand your issues with Okabe, even if I diagree with them somewhat. However, your criticisms of Steins;Gate as a whole surprises me a bit.

This anime has a superb sci-fi plot, in my view. Possibly the best handling of time travel, as a concept, that I've ever seen in anime. Much more interesting than the basic time-loops, or "ensuring the past unfolds as recorded", that I've seen elsewhere. The butterfly effect is much more dramatically and intriguingly applied here than in most other anime shows I've seen that incorporate time travel into their narratives.
My issues with Steins;Gate's plot thus far do not have much to do with the mechanics themselves, which we will have to see the full picture of before I can really say anything. Moreso, it's the fact that what we have been actually watching so far can be better summarized as "bunch of moe/otaku fetish characters send D-mails to the past; bunch of moe/otaku fetish characters undo D-mails to get back to the beginning again". The focus is more character drama than full sci-fi. That's where Steins;Gate began somewhat losing me.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 11:25   Link #132
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P By "Put Moeka out" I was precisely saying that Okabe could/should have knocked Moeka unconscious before trying to take her phone from her.

As Haak mentioned, the reason why Moeka was so catatonic was precisely because she was so fixated on her phone. It was flippin' obvious that Moeka was gonna resist extremely violently if Okabe tried to take it away. The only reasons Okabe could have proceeded as he did anyway were either 1. he was arrogant enough to think that he'd have no problems even if Moeka did end up resisting him physically or 2., as you've mentioned, he simply didn't care (and wanted Moeka to feel the pain and frustration of having her phone taken away from her).
Or maybe he simply thought of the doing the most non violent thing without thinking, because that's the first thing we'd all do... It's far less violent to steal something than to physically attack someone without provocation. The fact that he went after the phone first actually shows that he only cared about the phone. Had he hit her first, you'd have probably been saying there wasn't any need for that and that he probably did it because he hated her.

Frankly, knocking her out and then taking her phone would've been far worse. Bear in mind, there's no safe way to knock someone unconcious.
__________________

Last edited by Haak; 2011-08-11 at 11:38.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 11:35   Link #133
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As Haak mentioned, the reason why Moeka was so catatonic was precisely because she was so fixated on her phone. It was flippin' obvious that Moeka was gonna resist extremely violently if Okabe tried to take it away. The only reasons Okabe could have proceeded as he did anyway were either 1. he was arrogant enough to think that he'd have no problems even if Moeka did end up resisting him physically or 2., as you've mentioned, he simply didn't care (and wanted Moeka to feel the pain and frustration of having her phone taken away from her).
Huh no, not caring about your enemy's well-being/feelings doesn't mean you want them to suffer.
Indifference doesn't mean you are a BIG S or anything you know.

It doesn't make sense at all with Okabe characterization -and- behaviour: not only he didn't show any pleasure with the struggle and flat out revelations thrown at Moeka, he even apologized.

How on earth can you consider a character like this as "wanting her to feel the pain and frustration"?
Quote:
Pressure points, asphyxiation/strangulation, a good old knock to the head (er, maybe lol). A tranquilizer/sedative would be ideal--could he have entertained the idea of running back out and getting one? Contrary to what I meant by 'putting her out', even simple bondage (i.e. tying her up) would have been safer and gentler. As I said, given Moeka was completely not responding to him, he had all the time in the world to improvise.
Your examples are actually worse or unpractical compared to a single straight punch:
Pressure points is unlikely to be known by someone like Okabe, especially on someone he does not know that much.

Asphyxiation and strangulation are much worse than mere punch: asphyxia is one of the most life threatening inducing sensation, which is hardly anything "nicer" than a punch, especially considering how the respiratory system works with human brain.
Heck, doing so might potentially lead to Moeka's death, or grave aftermath, supposing her brain suffered too much from asphyxia.

A knock on the head is basically the same as a punch, I fail to see how it is any "less vicious" under your terms.
Wait, no it is worse, since it would imply he use violence despite she is not dangerous in such state: that kind of move would be questionable in fact.

As for sedative, bondage, etc: Okabe doesn't know if her comrades are around or not. He doesn't know if he is about to get owned by someone else like what happened before when he threatened Moeka with her own gun. What he needed is to get her phone ASAP. And he initially tried without resorting to violence: is that really far fetched to expect to be able to snatch it quickly and run off? Even if Moeka's reaction might turn into violence, what he did was not even aimed for that result, and it really doesn't matter considering the objective.
Surely, he could potentially walk off after spotting Moeka being in catatonic state, and then what? It was actually the best timing for him to jump on her, since she might be not under the same state for all he know, nor she could have other people around the next time he shows up.

Quote:
The focus is more character drama than full sci-fi. That's where Steins;Gate began somewhat losing me.
SG is definitely character driven, but has its lion share of time traveling theories, butterfly effects expositions, paradox being exposed and whatnot.
The last thing people would need now is a full lecture of Kurisu about time travel in general: it isn't like they can drag more on the sci fi side when they apposed the premises throroughly.
Klashikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 11:46   Link #134
Sheba
*singing In the Navy*
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Naval Base partying with the Sendai sisters
Age: 34
Let's be honest here, many time travel stories were more about the characters than time travel theories themselves. They are mostly frameworks for the stories where the question is "What if?". What if McFly senior was not a wimp? What if the father of the friend of Evan Treborn was told to not abuse his daughter?
Sheba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 11:55   Link #135
klare
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
that was intense, sending 2 mails but still fail to undo it

Moeka looked at the grabbing marks on her hands and decided to tell Okabe the location of the IBN? does it indicate she enjoyed it...
__________________
klare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 12:14   Link #136
Midonin
Last Engage
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Florida
I've been seriously considering this issue (that I started in the first place, I'll fully admit to that), and I think I've figured out why it bothers me so much and will still bother me. I'm not sure how much of it is about hitting a woman versus hitting a person in general or even if it was justified and how much of it has to do with attitudes I've seen around this board. It's not just one thing that caused me to respond like that.

I'm opposed to violence in general, unless it's being played in a slapstick way. There's the whole issue of revenge and "deserving" it, which is a slippery slope, though he realized the true target quick enough that he stopped himself, although that doesn't really make the initial strike okay either. Yes, Moeka was going crazy, but there might have been alternative methods. Yes, she did do something bad, but that's another issue that has as much to do with time travel and world lines as anything else.

I think I've narrowed it down to two possible reasons that could explain where I ended up. The first, again, was done in anticipation of how this board responds to issues like this normally. People were saying in the Hanasauk Iroha 19 thread that over an issue that involves a lot less killing than this one, they'd have slapped someone. Violence as a response to even minor issues, never mind major ones like this, leaves me to wonder why, and causes me to detest it a little, just out of a sense of human decency.

The other issue has as much to do with hitting someone who was his equal. She may not have been with the lab in every time line, but if he's willing to help her, and he knows she was, she's still a friend. Some would say a friend is a person who you can hurt, but there's also the issue of when you see someone as your equal, male or female, and treat them how you would like to be treated, and that typically doesn't involve doing it so violently, though she's not exactly blameless, but he isn't and...

It's a really thorny issue. I don't know if my view can be construed as idealist, feminist, whatever it is. I'm willing to support my view, and I don't want to come across as an idiot, but that I put forth an ideal view at all seems to be getting some backlash and... I have no idea where I stand in all this.

But I've definitely been thinking about it.
Midonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 13:15   Link #137
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Frankly, knocking her out and then taking her phone would've been far worse. Bear in mind, there's no safe way to knock someone unconcious.
Sure there are. It's just that most of them, like Triple_R brought up, might require some sort of specialized equipment and/or knowledge.

Quote:
Or maybe he simply thought of the doing the most non violent thing without thinking, because that's the first thing we'd all do... It's far less violent to steal something than to physically attack someone without provocation. The fact that he went after the phone first actually shows that he only cared about the phone. Had he hit her first, you'd have probably been saying there wasn't any need for that and that he probably did it because he hated her.
If Okabe really only cared about the phone, he would have thought up some safer way (for himself) to go about getting it. I've brought that point up as well before. The reason he chose the path he did was clearly due to impulsiveness and emotionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Huh no, not caring about your enemy's well-being/feelings doesn't mean you want them to suffer.
Indifference doesn't mean you are a BIG S or anything you know.

It doesn't make sense at all with Okabe characterization -and- behaviour: not only he didn't show any pleasure with the struggle and flat out revelations thrown at Moeka, he even apologized.

How on earth can you consider a character like this as "wanting her to feel the pain and frustration"?
Okabe hasn't got balls enough to be an actual S. That doesn't mean he wasn't letting himself loose with his emotionality and hatred.

Quote:
Your examples are actually worse or unpractical compared to a single straight punch:
Pressure points is unlikely to be known by someone like Okabe, especially on someone he does not know that much.

Asphyxiation and strangulation are much worse than mere punch: asphyxia is one of the most life threatening inducing sensation, which is hardly anything "nicer" than a punch, especially considering how the respiratory system works with human brain.
Heck, doing so might potentially lead to Moeka's death, or grave aftermath, supposing her brain suffered too much from asphyxia.

A knock on the head is basically the same as a punch, I fail to see how it is any "less vicious" under your terms.
Wait, no it is worse, since it would imply he use violence despite she is not dangerous in such state: that kind of move would be questionable in fact.

As for sedative, bondage, etc: Okabe doesn't know if her comrades are around or not. He doesn't know if he is about to get owned by someone else like what happened before when he threatened Moeka with her own gun. What he needed is to get her phone ASAP. And he initially tried without resorting to violence: is that really far fetched to expect to be able to snatch it quickly and run off? Even if Moeka's reaction might turn into violence, what he did was not even aimed for that result, and it really doesn't matter considering the objective.
Surely, he could potentially walk off after spotting Moeka being in catatonic state, and then what? It was actually the best timing for him to jump on her, since she might be not under the same state for all he know, nor she could have other people around the next time he shows up.
See, intellectually Moeka's gonna die in this timeline anyway (or so Okabe claims), and he's trying to do another worldline jump in the first place. Being able to acquire Moeka's cell phone to do that time jump is the most important thing, so a little use of force to knock Moeka unconscious before taking her cell phone is totally acceptable. It's clearly the most efficient method.

What Okabe did, though, was raw and messy. That is what tells me it was more driven by emotion than anything else. What's more, it's only ugly emotion, that of revenge and frustration and wanting to take it out on something else. That's my issue here: that Okabe wanted to take it out on Moeka, because in his eyes she didn't deserve anything more. It's not that it's bad that Okabe made Moeka suffer to any degree, it's that he did it for no real useful/necessary point.

I won't say that this world is easy enough that you can always get away without anybody getting hurt. Still though, when it has to happen, then you should make sure to do it with as much empathy as you can. That's the only way you can ever make sure that you're actually making the world a better place. Frankly, to any degree that Okabe's punch was not driven by gratuity and hate, stupidity can be the only other 'cause. For just the goal of getting the cell-phone, there were any number of ways it could've been better done.

Quote:
SG is definitely character driven, but has its lion share of time traveling theories, butterfly effects expositions, paradox being exposed and whatnot.
The last thing people would need now is a full lecture of Kurisu about time travel in general: it isn't like they can drag more on the sci fi side when they apposed the premises throroughly.
lol. Honestly, I would have found that more interesting. Ultimately, this probably comes down more to Steins:Gate's Visual Novel background than anything else, so it's just a matter of taste. If/when I do read/watch sci-fi, I will find more interest in a serious work.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 13:32   Link #138
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Okabe hasn't got balls enough to be an actual S. That doesn't mean he wasn't letting himself loose with his emotionality and hatred.
Who wouldn't hate Moeka in Okabe's shoes? And even so, restraining themselves and apologizing afterwards?
Considering how many times Okabe went through that looping hell, you would rather expect him to lynch her if it was truly an breakdown only driven by hatred.
Quote:
See, intellectually Moeka's gonna die in this timeline anyway (or so Okabe claims), and he's trying to do another worldline jump in the first place. Being able to acquire Moeka's cell phone to do that time jump is the most important thing, so a little use of force to knock Moeka unconscious before taking her cell phone is totally acceptable. It's clearly the most efficient method.
Your examples do not reflect with the "little use of force". A punch driven by hatred, isn't any more vicious than strangling someone. These methods are actually more risky, dangerous and vicious.
Do you realize how horrible it is to be strangled?
You even mention a blow on the head so she can be unconscious, which is much stronger than a mere punch in the face.

Quote:
What Okabe did, though, was raw and messy. That is what tells me it was more driven by emotion than anything else. What's more, it's only ugly emotion, that of revenge and frustration and wanting to take it out on something else. That's my issue here: that Okabe wanted to take it out on Moeka, because in his eyes she didn't deserve anything more. It's not that it's bad that Okabe made Moeka suffer to any degree, it's that he did it for no real useful/necessary point.
Even though Okabe was definitely affected by his emotions, he punched her as a mean to get her away from him so he can seize the cellphone. Not only he didn't enjoy punching her, but he didn't proceed in a brawling bash whatsoever.
That single punch was necessary, otherwise she would cling to him ad nauseam. I ask that again: what could he have done with Moeka clinging on him? Tickling her? Smooth talking?
Using that sole flashback to drive Okabe's full intent is quite an alienation in my books.

Quote:
I won't say that this world is easy enough that you can always get away without anybody getting hurt. Still though, when it has to happen, then you should make sure to do it with as much empathy as you can. That's the only way you can ever make sure that you're actually making the world a better place. Frankly, to any degree that Okabe's punch was not driven by gratuity and hate, stupidity can be the only other 'cause. For just the goal of getting the cell-phone, there were any number of ways it could've been better done.
Empathy? How on earth are you supposed to express empathy, while robbing someone's precious item in order to save someone else? That's like expecting Heroes to feel empathic to the demon king before slaying him in order to save the princess. It doesn't make any sense, especially considering Okabe has no duty or responsibility to feel sorry forher, especially he didn't know about FB prior Moeka's explanations.
Heck, without any obligation, he expressed empathy after learning Moeka's circumstances, despite he could just scramble and let her mopping about FB until she dies.

There is no way not to hurt people in such situation. Branding "evil' or whatnot because of a single motivation which isn't even the full reason for the act (a mere punch at that) is, imho, nonsense.
Klashikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 13:36   Link #139
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

See, intellectually Moeka's gonna die in this timeline anyway (or so Okabe claims), and he's trying to do another worldline jump in the first place. Being able to acquire Moeka's cell phone to do that time jump is the most important thing, so a little use of force to knock Moeka unconscious before taking her cell phone is totally acceptable. It's clearly the most efficient method.

What Okabe did, though, was raw and messy. That is what tells me it was more driven by emotion than anything else. What's more, it's only ugly emotion, that of revenge and frustration and wanting to take it out on something else. That's my issue here: that Okabe wanted to take it out on Moeka, because in his eyes she didn't deserve anything more. It's not that it's bad that Okabe made Moeka suffer to any degree, it's that he did it for no real useful/necessary point.

I won't say that this world is easy enough that you can always get away without anybody getting hurt. Still though, when it has to happen, then you should make sure to do it with as much empathy as you can. That's the only way you can ever make sure that you're actually making the world a better place. Frankly, to any degree that Okabe's punch was not driven by gratuity and hate, stupidity can be the only other 'cause. For just the goal of getting the cell-phone, there were any number of ways it could've been better done.
Revenge and frustration are now a huge part of Okabe now. It's expected that a number of reactions of his are going to be irrational, and at least I thought the anime communicated that he has a few screws loose because he's gotten utterly obsessed with saving Mayuri.

So it's only natural that some of his actions would be rushed without thinking over twice and for him to have more than a few screws loose.

Also, consider that time is limited. If he messes up, he needs to reset and dmail again; he doesn't have that much time to plan. Unless he wants to jump again and god knows what has changed.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-11, 13:59   Link #140
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Who wouldn't hate Moeka in Okabe's shoes? And even so, restraining themselves and apologizing afterwards?
Considering how many times Okabe went through that looping hell, you would rather expect him to lynch her if it was truly an breakdown only driven by hatred.
Anybody with basic human decency. Moeka's a victim herself.
Also, frankly, Moeka looked so far gone that it's not like lynching her would've hurt her more than taking away the phone. Okabe's assault is pretty much the most aggressive thing he could've done amongst the things he actually had the balls to.

Quote:
Your examples do not reflect with the "little use of force". A punch driven by hatred, isn't any more vicious than strangling someone. These methods are actually more risky, dangerous and vicious.
Do you realize how horrible it is to be strangled?
You even mention a blow on the head so she can be unconscious, which is much stronger than a mere punch in the face.
lol, it is a 'little use of force'. Much less energy than trying to wrestle it out of her. The way I used the word 'vicious' there was in the intent, not the degree of the actions.

Quote:
Even though Okabe was definitely affected by his emotions, he punched her as a mean to get her away from him so he can seize the cellphone. Not only he didn't enjoy punching her, but he didn't proceed in a brawling bash whatsoever.
That single punch was necessary, otherwise she would cling to him ad nauseam. I ask that again: what could he have done with Moeka clinging on him? Tickling her? Smooth talking?
Using that sole flashback to drive Okabe's full intent is quite an alienation in my books.
Of course Okabe didn't start a full out brawl with her. His main goal was to get the phone and get away. It's a fact though that he didn't care how much he had to hurt her. If he did he'd have found a way to minimize the amount of fighting they would actually have to do.

Quote:
Empathy? How on earth are you supposed to express empathy, while robbing someone's precious item in order to save someone else? That's like expecting Heroes to feel empathic to the demon king before slaying him in order to save the princess. It doesn't make any sense, especially considering Okabe has no duty or responsibility to feel sorry forher, especially he didn't know about FB prior Moeka's explanations.
Heck, without any obligation, he expressed empathy after learning Moeka's circumstances, despite he could just scramble and let her mopping about FB until she dies.

There is no way not to hurt people in such situation. Branding "evil' or whatnot because of a single motivation which isn't even the full reason for the act (a mere punch at that) is, imho, nonsense.
As humans, we can always express empathy. Without empathy, there's no point in even being alive. It's not like humans are actually any good for the ecosystem or the planet or the universe or whatever. You'd have to be naive or delusional to believe that black and white moralities like a "Hero" (lol) vs. a "Demon King" () can actually be applied to conflicts in reality.

Btw, I never said Okabe was 'evil'. Just impulsive, emotionally driven, and possibly a little stupid (but only if you deny the first two :P).

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Revenge and frustration are now a huge part of Okabe now. It's expected that a number of reactions of his are going to be irrational, and at least I thought the anime communicated that he has a few screws loose because he's gotten utterly obsessed with saving Mayuri.

So it's only natural that some of his actions would be rushed without thinking over twice and for him to have more than a few screws loose.

Also, consider that time is limited. If he messes up, he needs to reset and dmail again; he doesn't have that much time to plan. Unless he wants to jump again and god knows what has changed.
I don't disagree with this. The main point is, with regards to people's reactions to this episode, that Okabe's actions are ones that are unfortunate rather than ones that are admirable.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.