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Old 2012-01-09, 16:30   Link #161
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
How come?
A perfect character needs to be balanced some way or another, otherwise the story will lose any sense of drama as the series progress. Now she's just likable, but whether the series work with her as protagonist depends on how they will handle her character from now on.
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Old 2012-01-09, 16:35   Link #162
Haak
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Mary Sue is really a subjective thing it seems. Although I can understand how many people might see her as too perfect, she doesn't fit the bill as a Mary Sue for me just yet because of her very sweet personality and great work ethic (the latter is one I think the episode emphasised just enough that some people wouldn't feel she's too Mary Sueish). However if this "doing everything perfectly" carries on at this rate then i might be inclined to say so too. I'd say she's borderline and not quite there yet.
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Old 2012-01-09, 16:48   Link #163
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Mary Sue is really a subjective thing it seems. Although I can understand how many people might see her as too perfect, she doesn't fit the bill as a Mary Sue for me just yet because of her very sweet personality and great work ethic (the latter is one I think the episode emphasised just enough that some people wouldn't feel she's too Mary Sueish). However if this "doing everything perfectly" carries on at this rate then i might be inclined to say so too. I'd say she's borderline and not quite there yet.
It is. For example while I wouldn't label this Madoka character one I would call someone like Hitagi from Bakemonogatari one because every time she's on screen or even off people seem to be talking about her and how great she is despite her miserable and pointlessly violent personality, but others would disagree. Similarly a lot of people claimed that Madoka from Magica was a Mary Sue, but I would disagree in their she has plenty of personality flaws and was pretty weak-willed for the vast majority of the show, while I would call someone like Lacus Clyne a Mary Sue because she's always considered to be correct in her viewpoints automatically and the plot seems to fall over backwards to have anybody whose viewpoint is in opposition to hers be frothing at the mouth genocidal and/or easily dealt with.

In other words YMMV
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:00   Link #164
Kazu-kun
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Well, "mary sue" is just a term and I don't really care whether she can be considered as such.

My point is that Madoka is a "perfect character", a character gifted both physically and academically. And she also has the "strong will" sort of attitude that allows her to use her wide set of skills to the their full potential.

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it all depends on how her character is handle. We'll see what happen...
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:12   Link #165
Haak
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
It is. For example while I wouldn't label this Madoka character one I would call someone like Hitagi from Bakemonogatari one because every time she's on screen or even off people seem to be talking about her and how great she is despite her miserable and pointlessly violent personality, but others would disagree. Similarly a lot of people claimed that Madoka from Magica was a Mary Sue, but I would disagree in their she has plenty of personality flaws and was pretty weak-willed for the vast majority of the show, while I would call someone like Lacus Clyne a Mary Sue because she's always considered to be correct in her viewpoints automatically and the plot seems to fall over backwards to have anybody whose viewpoint is in opposition to hers be frothing at the mouth genocidal and/or easily dealt with.

In other words YMMV
Well not that I'd agree but I suppose people would see Senjougahara as a Jerk Sue and Madoka from Magica as an Anti Sue. Don't know about Lacus Clyne.

The most recent examples I can think of are Nako from Hanasaku Iroha (towards the end she was somehow always saying exactly the right things), and Gon from HunterxHunter (The most recent episode being a breath of fresh air since it finally shows him as vulnerable and not always having the answer or the right attitude). If I compare Madoka to them, I just can't say Madoka is a Mary Sue
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:15   Link #166
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The that was pretty good first episode. Over the top as some of elements were (dat German Suplex ) for what is suppose to be a fair serious show none of it felt really jarring. One grape I have is that I didn't care much character design in general outside Lan. Mech designs are pretty nice other the hand. Fun episode either way. 8.25/10

As far as Madoka being a May-sue is concerned, I don't see it either. Contrary to all her physical and academic talents as Kaoshin pointed out she's pretty naive. She readily accepted everything way too easily despite there being very little explanation and much more cause suspicion. Lan's entire appearance and actions being the number one issue.
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:35   Link #167
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
As far as Madoka being a May-sue is concerned, I don't see it either. Contrary to all her physical and academic talents as Kaoshin pointed out she's pretty naive. She readily accepted everything way too easily despite there being very little explanation and much more cause suspicion. Lan's entire appearance and actions being the number one issue.
But we still don't know if her naive/easy going attitude is going to be portrayed as a flaw. For all we know it could be a just a cute feature of her character that wouldn't have any effect on the plot at all.
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:55   Link #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well not that I'd agree but I suppose people would see Senjougahara as a Jerk Sue and Madoka from Magica as an Anti Sue. Don't know about Lacus Clyne.

The most recent examples I can think of are Nako from Hanasaku Iroha (towards the end she was somehow always saying exactly the right things), and Gon from HunterxHunter (The most recent episode being a breath of fresh air since it finally shows him as vulnerable and not always having the answer or the right attitude). If I compare Madoka to them, I just can't say Madoka is a Mary Sue
A bit off topic but didn't Gon just get completely dominated by Hisoka when he tried to fight him? Also he wasn't even able to touch the old man so he's obviously got a long way to go compared to some of the insanely strong characters in that show.
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:55   Link #169
viperdk1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
As far as Madoka being a Mary-sue is concerned, I don't see it either. Contrary to all her physical and academic talents as Kaoshin pointed out she's pretty naive. She readily accepted everything way too easily despite there being very little explanation and much more cause suspicion. Lan's entire appearance and actions being the number one issue.
I thought that too - looking from the outside in, it felt as though she was accepting everything far too easily. There was an indication in the episode that she had seen some of this before (the robot, for instance - that flashback once Madoka touched it) - so maybe that is a possible reason for it.

To be honest, I don't mind Madoka as much as some you guys. By all means, she appears to be 'gifted' in terms of vocational 'subjects' (sport, drama etc.) - but have we actually seen her grades? I don't quite follow why people are saying she's academically gifted too? Either way, it makes sense - unless I missed something about her academic abilities, and that her grades are as good as her abilities in vocational subjects. Then we're getting towards Mary-Sue status.

Only issue I do take with Madoka is her interactions with Lan when the latter agreed to join the Sweat Club. I guess they say opposites attract, but it almost felt like there was no 'chemistry' between the two at all (what with Madoka being just as overzealous as Haruhi Suzumiya, with Lan being the quiet type akin to Yuki Nagato. Sorta would have needed a Kyon-esque middle ground to provide the spark... did I really just make a comparison to the Haruhi series? S***, I did. ). My only response to that? Madoka - calm down, girl!

Also a small little bit bemused me - when Madoka was in the shower, and turned around to see Lan. She says that Lan scared her, but her actions didn't seem to support that notion...ah well .

Quite enjoyed the episode beyond that problem - absolutely adore the OP sequence (to which I think most of the budget went - damn that thing is gorgeous! Might explain why the ED lacks in comparison - the OP is just so good!).
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Old 2012-01-09, 18:00   Link #170
Kagayaki
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The only time "Mary Sue" has a well-defined meaning is when someone uses it to criticize an inept fanfiction author who creates a self-insert original character. Calling canon characters in an official work Mary Sues is a clumsy, flame-bait-like way for people to bash shows they don't like. It's the worst kind of criticism, since nobody can actually agree or disagree with it because everyone has a different definition of "Mary Sue".

People often use "Mary Sue" when they really mean one of these:
1) The character is overpowered and that kills the suspense in the show.
2) The character lives out a common fantasy associated with the show's target demographic (aka "wish fulfillment")
3) The character shows little depth or complexity because they always do everything perfectly.
4) The character does everything perfectly, and this is never justified, so it breaks my suspension of disbelief.
5) The plot and setting bend over backwards in a cliched way for the sake of the character.

As far as Rinne no Lagrange goes, we haven't seen enough of the show to evaluate most of these. I could see 4 or 5 becoming problems in this case, but we'll see as the show goes on.

TL;DR Debating whether Madoka is a Mary Sue is pointless now, firstly because nobody agrees on what that means, and secondly because for all of the possible definitions it's too early to tell at this point.
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Old 2012-01-09, 18:03   Link #171
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by viperdk1 View Post
but have we actually seen her grades? I don't quite follow why people are saying she's academically gifted too? Either way, it makes sense - unless I missed something about her academic abilities, and that her grades are as good as her abilities in vocational subjects. Then we're getting towards Mary-Sue status.
Then we are, because she was offered to take the lead of the student council. And as you know, you can't be the student council president unless your grades are pretty good.
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Old 2012-01-09, 18:12   Link #172
viperdk1
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Then we are, because she was offered to take the lead of the student council. And as you know, you can't be the student council president unless your grades are pretty good.
As I know? I wouldn't have a clue

-skips through to find that bit you're referring to-

Ah I see what you mean now. Though I'd completely forgotten that student council presidents usually have good grades to match (until I remembered Mitsuru Kirijo from P3 . Fair enough then

And to take note of Kagayaki's post, I could also see 4 and 5 from your list becoming potential problems if it went down that path. I agree on the logic that we can't decide whether she is or isn't until we've seen more of the series.

Just wondering, but I figured I'd put this out there - does it feel like 3 on Kagayaki's list applies right now? What do we really know about Madoka that doesn't come down to her being pretty much perfect at everything she does?
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Old 2012-01-09, 20:41   Link #173
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"Madoka, do not become a magical girl pilot, it will kill you!"

...btw, what is Demetria?
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Old 2012-01-09, 21:42   Link #174
Kaoru Chujo
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Lovely first episode, largely because Ishihara Kaori's voice is just so...exciting? Not sure what word to use, but the contrast between her perkiness and the material is wonderful. She has a unique quality in there -- a hollow sharpness? -- that really does it for me. A fairly familiar-seeming plot, but typically great IG animation and design. And I really look forward to seeing how (if?) Madoka and Kaori's performance evolve.

This is the only first ep of the new season I've been able to catch a glimpse of so far. Real life intrudes, lol.
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Old 2012-01-10, 01:04   Link #175
Funkatron
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Few comments after watching episode 1:
  • I don't know if she'd be considered Mary Sue yet but I definitely got a Taiki (Digimon Xros Wars) vibe from her
  • Love the design of the mech Madoka pilots. Reminds me a bit of Aquarion
  • I almost get a Eureka vibe from Miss Alien.
  • Some of the musical cues in the beginning of the enemy mech's first touchdown into the ocean reminded me of the soundtrack to Evangelion.

For some reason this just felt like a mishmash of other anime, especially mech anime. Doesn't mean it's bad but it needs to stand out on its own more. I'll still watch, though, because its somewhat interesting. And it has mechs = win.
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Old 2012-01-10, 03:59   Link #176
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Right now to me it feels like a magical girl show but with mechas instead of magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
A perfect character needs to be balanced some way or another, otherwise the story will lose any sense of drama
I'd personnaly be perfectly fine with the show being a lighthearted affair with no real suspense or drama where I just get to see Madoka kick ass every week.
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Old 2012-01-10, 04:35   Link #177
Haak
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
A bit off topic but didn't Gon just get completely dominated by Hisoka when he tried to fight him? Also he wasn't even able to touch the old man so he's obviously got a long way to go compared to some of the insanely strong characters in that show.
I'll answer that in the appropriate thread.
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Old 2012-01-10, 09:38   Link #178
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Episode 1 was quite entertaining than I initially thought. The main character is fun to watch and it seems she's a rather gifted person. The designs of the mecha were unique. The battles however are kind of bland. I'm still wondering why the opponent allowed the protagonist to complete the transformation sequence. At that situation, he could've disengaged his shield and attack his target. Perhaps, I shouldn't think too much when watching this show from here on. The yuri subtext is a big turn off, but I can't let that get in the way. The series does look promising... Well, kind of. =.=

This is probably my favorite scene in the episode
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-01-10, 10:42   Link #179
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
The only time "Mary Sue" has a well-defined meaning is when someone uses it to criticize an inept fanfiction author who creates a self-insert original character. Calling canon characters in an official work Mary Sues is a clumsy, flame-bait-like way for people to bash shows they don't like. It's the worst kind of criticism, since nobody can actually agree or disagree with it because everyone has a different definition of "Mary Sue".
I disagree. The term isn't as clumsy or as nebulous as you're making it out to be. It's also no more "flame-bait" than any other pointed criticism is. Finally, there's shows I like that have characters in them that I'd consider Mary Sues. "Mary Sue" is a criticism of a character, not an entire show.

"Mary Sue" has a certain limited number of meanings to it, just like almost any other word or term. You yourself touched on pretty much all of them with your list of 5 "real meanings", and it's usually not hard to tell which of those meanings is intended depending on the character that the term is applied to. There's also considerable overlap between those 5 "real meanings". While there are nuanced differences between the 5, they also often go hand-in-hand with one another.

Yes, "Mary Sue" originated as a criticism of a fanfiction author who creates an overly perfect, overpowered, and/or overly fortunate (i.e. the plot consistently bends to his/her will) self-insertion character.

However, like many other words and terms in the English language, it has since evolved a bit to now include canon characters in official works. The core meaning is still basically the same.

So I personally think that "Mary Sue" is a legitimate term, and a perfectly valid and warranted criticism in at least a few cases (including for some canon characters in official works). In fact, "Mary Sue" carries a much clearer implication/meaning than a lot of other popular terms like "moe" and "tsundere", imo.


I agree with you on one thing - It's too early to tell if Madoka is a Mary Sue or not. However, there are "Too Perfect" red flags there. Again, it's no big deal, but it could be an issue later on depending on how things play out. Hopefully it won't be an issue, and Madoka's naivety (or something else) will help to provide balance to her character.

In any event, Madoka is a likable character, and that's more important than if she's a Mary Sue or not, imo.
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Old 2012-01-10, 12:29   Link #180
Otani-kun
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I personally find Madoka's personality to be both likeable and refreshing. How is Madoka a weak point if she's fun to watch, despite being perfect?

I'd rather have her than one of those standard emo protagonists who constantly doubts himself. Especially someone like Shu from Guilty Crown who basically ruins the entire show with his personality and annoying attitude. I bet he'd take in three episodes just to get convinced to jump in the robot's cockpit.
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