US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

I don't see any benefits from Congress declaring English as the official language. I laugh when I read other countries' constitutions and see lines like this:

Like, really? Did it really need to be stated that the language of France shall be French?

Cue a never-ending stream of Monty Python humor about the French...

You know I can see a country wanting to keep its culture - especially if its been homogeneous for five or ten centuries... in the US case... we've always been a multi-cultural country (no, no revisionist bullshit that pretends only one thread counts) so the only "menace" I see is the attempts to *make* it an homogeneous culture. Our culture is that we have many hats and we try to incorporate the best of all of them. The battle is in keeping the stuff that contradicts the "best of" practices and the secular society envisioned.

France had the same goals... where they've run into problems is in letting enclaves develop where French ideals were not integrated -- the immigrants were not "given the lessons" about why where they've arrived gives them more opportunity than where they've left and not just economically.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

I don't see any benefits from Congress declaring English as the official language. I laugh when I read other countries' constitutions and see lines like this:

Like, really? Did it really need to be stated that the language of France shall be French?

It is shall we say, prudent. Some dialects are still alive. Plus, it's a habit. Even if today it's less necessary, it used to be more of an issue.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Cue a never-ending stream of Monty Python humor about the French...

You know I can see a country wanting to keep its culture - especially if its been homogeneous for five or ten centuries... in the US case... we've always been a multi-cultural country (no, no revisionist bullshit that pretends only one thread counts) so the only "menace" I see is the attempts to *make* it an homogeneous culture. Our culture is that we have many hats and we try to incorporate the best of all of them. The battle is in keeping the stuff that contradicts the "best of" practices and the secular society envisioned.

Unless they are afraid of the influence from outside and are convinced than their situation is weak, like the situation of the Quebec with our ''Loi 101'' (Lay 101). But the US are rather the one affecting the others countries, given how much ''cultural product'' ( I am talkking about quantity, discution about it's quality would be fit to another discution...) they are exporting to the rest of the world.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Unless they are afraid of the influence from outside and are convinced than their situation is weak, like the situation of the Quebec with our ''Loi 101'' (Lay 101). But the US are rather the one affecting the others countries, given how much ''cultural product'' ( I am talkking about quantity, discution about it's quality would be fit to another discution...) they are exporting to the rest of the world.

Loi 101 is much more in order to keep the workers in English companies to speak French when it was first introduced, though.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Cue a never-ending stream of Monty Python humor about the French...

You know I can see a country wanting to keep its culture - especially if its been homogeneous for five or ten centuries... in the US case... we've always been a multi-cultural country (no, no revisionist bullshit that pretends only one thread counts) so the only "menace" I see is the attempts to *make* it an homogeneous culture.

I'm still trying to figure out what that "white culture" was, that Glenn Beck was always railing about being endangered.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by KiRa08o2

Loi 101 is much more in order to keep the workers in English companies to speak French when it was first introduced, though.

True, but now it's almost a Symbol for some. Everytime they think than the position of French is menaced, they want to make it stronger.

[solomon]

On the one hand, I don't think it's a big deal if it's declared the official language. In some cases I can understand the Quebec style argument (French potentially getting muzzled out).

On the other hand, we can't start using that as a tool to deny people certain rights and needs just because they speak can't English. I guess at the end of the day it's just more ceremonial symbolism. What is it's purpose. If it's used to unite, then cool fine. If it's used to discriminate, no.

I've been volunteering in an ESL class and it helped humanize the issue. It's really friggin hard to learn a language as an adult when you have a fuck ton of other shit to do and stuff. It takes time. I think a lot of people forget that their predecessors probably were in some German or Irish or Italian enclave before (this is dependent on a lot of things).

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I'm still trying to figure out what that "white culture" was, that Glenn Beck was always railing about being endangered.

Clown Beck thinks the world of 1955 "White America" is the way its always been and always should be. If you were white, it was great - otherwise, not so great. Before that, it was only a minority of the "whites" that even got to experience that - the "robber baron" class and their lackeys, most whites weren't much better off than the non-white immigrants though they were played against each other.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Cue a never-ending stream of Monty Python humor about the French...

You know I can see a country wanting to keep its culture - especially if its been homogeneous for five or ten centuries...

In the case of France, I believe the official language was, well, officialised precisely because it wasn't homogeneous. It was a way for Paris to exert authority on the regions. (Of course, that was centuries ago.)

[Zetsubo]

why is it so important to "keep a culture pure" when culture is a dynamic thing subject to change from outside and within.

I do not get why the resistance to change is so strong, especially for language.

The French are awful with this.

Whats so wrong with creating a new global "Terran Culture" ?

Such a Terran culture won't think it strange to see a zen Buddhist black man from kyoto wearing a kimono. Is that such a horrifying idea ?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

Like, really? Did it really need to be stated that the language of France shall be French?

Oh believe me,if they didn't say it I could see some local administrations in Corsica and Brittany having the documents written in their regional languages only just to troll the national administration , especialy back in 1958.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Clown Beck thinks the world of 1955 "White America" is the way its always been and always should be.

does Glen beck really believed that? I always thought that Beck was just sprouting these lines because it made him money.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

does Glen beck really believed that? I always thought that Beck was just sprouting these lines because it made him money.

I don't think anyone really knows... but everything I've read about his terribly broken background leads me to believe he may.

Whats so wrong with creating a new global "Terran Culture" ?

Such a Terran culture won't think it strange to see a zen Buddhist black man from kyoto wearing a kimono. Is that such a horrifying idea ?

Any reading of cultural anthropology, history, sociology, etc says that it is somewhat inevitable. You'll always have *some* regional tastes, styles, etc. but the number of people counting themselves as citizens of the planet will tend to grow over time.

[Solace]

I used to watch him and Lou Dobbs on CNN years ago....neither were as crazy then. In fact there were times when they even said reasonable, well thought out things (shock, right?). At this point I think of them more like those television evangelicals, people who sold their souls for money and power while pretending to be men of faith.

It's possible that Glenn Beck still has some remnant of decency in him, but I doubt it. I think his path toward extremity has been so lucrative that he has no reason to ever go back. It's a bit like Rush...he's made his wealth, so it doesn't really matter anymore. May as well push that gravy train as hard as possible and then fade away into obscurity when you finally get cut, because at least you have one heck of a cushion from all of that money.

[solomon]

Fair if somewhat simplified article about gas prices, oil dependency and the culture surrounding them in America;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...S_story_1.html

Aside from these little talking points "high gas, ethonal, etc." Transportation and our Infrastructure is NO WHERE near the big time national policy priority or discussion topic it should be. One reason I voted for Obama was that I hoped he'd push it, but alas....

Frankly, weither you are Evangelical or Wiccan, Pro Life or Pro Choice, DFC or Bakunyu camp, this is something that affects us ALL every single freaking day.

[monsta666]

Originally Posted by solomon

Aside from these little talking points "high gas, ethonal, etc." Transportation and our Infrastructure is NO WHERE near the big time national policy priority or discussion topic it should be. One reason I voted for Obama was that I hoped he'd push it, but alas...

But Obama seemed to hint at some solution for the summer gas prices but maybe it is just a rumour...

Exclusive: U.S., Britain set to agree emergency oil stocks release (REUTERS)

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

I do not get why the resistance to change is so strong, especially for language.

People fear change. We're born into the world knowing nothing, and we embrace everything. We revel in what is new, because it is something unique to us, less familiar to the older generations are who are mired in their old ways. But then we age, and enter the next part of the cycle. We're older, we've gained proficiency in certain technologies and ways of doing things, and we're too busy or less malleable to accept newer things. We accept things the way that they are; we build our world view and knowledge base on them. To change those things threatens what has become our way of life, and removes many of the things that we have fond memories of. It makes us aliens in our own land. (On the technological front, I marvel at the fact that I jumped on email, message forums, instant messaging, and other forms of virtual communication when they were fairly new; yet these days, I don't use Twitter, there are a ton of social websites I've never heard of, and every time FaceBook does a layout change, I'm totally lost. Makes me feel like an old person...)

I think this is also the basis behind that quote, "progress occurs one death at a time." Some people are more adaptable than others, but ultimately none of us are as open and accepting of change as the younger generations who do not yet have a culture firmly engrained in them. Progress must wait for them to reach a stage of power and control before they can move it forward, but they can only go so far; then it's up to the next generation to continue moving it farther.

Originally Posted by Solace

It's possible that Glenn Beck still has some remnant of decency in him, but I doubt it. I think his path toward extremity has been so lucrative that he has no reason to ever go back. It's a bit like Rush...he's made his wealth, so it doesn't really matter anymore. May as well push that gravy train as hard as possible and then fade away into obscurity when you finally get cut, because at least you have one heck of a cushion from all of that money.

The money probably has something to do with it, but my guess is that it's more psychological. These guys probably believe what they're saying. Say extreme things, and you're likely to rile people up. Having people who are excited, who agree with you, and who keep coming back to listen to you is a powerful thing. It's a good feeling, but I'd imagine that it pushes people even farther. As you say more extreme things (up to a certain point, at least), you get even more people excited and following you. It's a positive feedback cycle. And who's there to reverse the trend? They have thousands, perhaps millions of people agreeing and supporting them. That many people can't be wrong, right?

[monsta666]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

People fear change. We're born into the world knowing nothing, and we embrace everything. We revel in what is new, because it is something unique to us, less familiar to the older generations are who are mired in their old ways. But then we age, and enter the next part of the cycle. We're older, we've gained proficiency in certain technologies and ways of doing things, and we're too busy or less malleable to accept newer things. We accept things the way that they are; we build our world view and knowledge base on them. To change those things threatens what has become our way of life, and removes many of the things that we have fond memories of. It makes us aliens in our own land.

To add this point, I feel not only does a person become more emotionally invested but they are often more financially invested in a particular system too. Those double factors make a person more resistant to change because not only is there a fear factor in changing but the person stands to lose more if they must commit to a change at a later age. On the other side the young person has accumulated less things so they stand to lose less from failure and can therefore become more bold and open to change.

To take a little example a 40 year old may fear a career change not because of the change itself (although that is often a big factor) but because starting over means they have to live on a lower salary and make substantial sacrifices for their spending to match the new salary. This is made all the more harder if they have a family to support. A 20 year old does need to make any negative financial adjustments nor do they have the commitments of the older person so they can readily embrace more radical life changes as they stand to lose less. In essence quite often it is the older generation who are the main beneficiaries of the status-quo while the losers (who stand to gain from a change in status-quo) will promote change. These conflicting forces of the "winners" and "losers" of a particular paradigm have happened time and time again throughout history.

[Vexx]

I dunno... I tend to feel much younger when things are in flux, but I'll admit to being a member of an outlier piece of the bell curve for my demographic. If you've spent your whole life expecting change and looking for it, that seems to help.

The only problem *I* have with change (like a career change) is when the younger people discriminate against me because of stereotype beliefs.

[monsta666]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I dunno... I tend to feel much younger when things are in flux, but I'll admit to being a member of an outlier piece of the bell curve for my demographic. If you've spent your whole life expecting change and looking for it, that seems to help.

The only problem *I* have with change (like a career change) is when the younger people discriminate against me because of stereotype beliefs.

Well there is no absolutes in life; that is why I said often and not always. Glad to hear you are open to change, that is a great quality to have!