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Old 2011-09-08, 12:39   Link #441
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I was initially amused by the idiocy statement, but after the debate a chill ran down my spine once I really considered what Perry was saying/trying to say. With his casual disregard for the potential deaths of innocent convicts, his firm anti-social security commitment, and his extreme stance against Science/Education, Perry came across as a very scary man...that extreme conservatives will love .
I don't even know what "conservative" means anymore. Its like I have to say "conservative circa 1985" or "conservative circa 1955". In truth, its like a variation on the Godwin Law ... no one dares call several of these candidates what they are -> Mussolini-style fascists. Anti-intellectual, crony corporatists, thugs who invoke religion as they beat down the different or less fortunate.

So... I *guess* I'm a Teddy Roosevelt / Eisenhower conservative who thinks the party has gone stark raving mad and is manipulated by the handful of plutocrats that Teddy and Eisenhower fought against.
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:30   Link #442
synaesthetic
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Ike's probably spinning in his grave so fast it'll rip a hole in the space-time continuum...
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:37   Link #443
DonQuigleone
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On another topic, anyone know when the Obama Jobs speech is going to be? You guys think he might manage to drop some kind of bomb?
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:38   Link #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't even know what "conservative" means anymore. Its like I have to say "conservative circa 1985" or "conservative circa 1955". In truth, its like a variation on the Godwin Law ... no one dares call several of these candidates what they are -> Mussolini-style fascists. Anti-intellectual, crony corporatists, thugs who invoke religion as they beat down the different or less fortunate.

So... I *guess* I'm a Teddy Roosevelt / Eisenhower conservative who thinks the party has gone stark raving mad and is manipulated by the handful of plutocrats that Teddy and Eisenhower fought against.

Quote:
Roosevelt kept McKinley's cabinet and promised to continue McKinley's policies. One of his first notable acts as president was to deliver a 20,000-word address to Congress[51] asking it to curb the power of large corporations (called "trusts").
unfortunately we haven't had a president like this since Roosevelt
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:47   Link #445
solomon
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Does anyone actually find the debates useful anymore?

I mean maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like they say anything different than the same damn thing they've been saying the past few months.

As for Obama's jobs dealy, it's infrastructure spending and tax cuts (break extentions) you can read more about it in the Washington Post.

I believe it's going to be on tonight at Seven (because football is on at eight and you know, NFL owns the leader of the free country.)
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:53   Link #446
james0246
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^The debates are a great way to get to know the candidates; their mannerisms and basic abilities to respond to questions. For instance, half of everything Cain said last night was complete political BS with non-answers and little to no real details or planning. Additionally, his presentation is bad (in debates, his presentation in town halls and other informal events is far better). Consequently, I do not consider him to be a strong candidate nor a possibility for even a cabinet position.
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Old 2011-09-08, 15:05   Link #447
DonQuigleone
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I think Political debates contribute to democracy, but I think it's more important to put the emphasis on issues and manifestos. The problem with putting everything on debates, is that it promotes personality politics, and I think that's a problem. The important thing is the issues, and what the party stands for. Governments are much more then the leader at the top. The leader at the top is actually relatively inconsequential. The actual party is far more important, as they're the ones that decide the policy, and they're the ones the leader needs to go through to get anything passed.

I think there should be less rhetoric and talk of competency and more discussion of issues. They're needs to be a proper national conversation about the future course of the country, and it needs to be widespread and rigorous enough to bring in the whole country into the discussion.

There's a big weakness in american media, which has not adequately framed the "national conversation". And it really is a literal conversation. The media needs to adequately address the issues people are concerned with and stage regular rigorous discussions. They need to spend less time on pot shots and talking points.
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Old 2011-09-08, 15:13   Link #448
Vexx
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post

There's a big weakness in american media, which has not adequately framed the "national conversation". And it really is a literal conversation. The media needs to adequately address the issues people are concerned with and stage regular rigorous discussions. They need to spend less time on pot shots and talking points.
You could call it "weakness" or you could say the corporate media is doing exactly as it is intended to do by its owners (the plutocracy) -- misinform, underinform, confuse, distract, and otherwise ply "bread and circuses". Seriously, I get better investigative journalism from my local independent city rag and I have to go overseas most of the time to get fairly decent critical analysis of politics.

A fair amount of the debate last night had me thinking "Dumb asking Dumber". I'd like to see a couple of BBC reporters hosting this event.... the blood and gore would be far more amusing and eye-opening than typical 'reality tv'.
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Old 2011-09-08, 15:14   Link #449
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I just wish they'd count the popular vote and not this electoral bs. We could've had Gore instead of Bush II, this pisses me off to no end.
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Old 2011-09-08, 15:22   Link #450
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You could call it "weakness" or you could say the corporate media is doing exactly as it is intended to do by its owners (the plutocracy) -- misinform, underinform, confuse, distract, and otherwise ply "bread and circuses". Seriously, I get better investigative journalism from my local independent city rag and I have to go overseas most of the time to get fairly decent critical analysis of politics.

A fair amount of the debate last night had me thinking "Dumb asking Dumber". I'd like to see a couple of BBC reporters hosting this event.... the blood and gore would be far more amusing and eye-opening than typical 'reality tv'.
Well you could argue that one of the things the United States lack is a high quality public broadcasting institution. Certainly I'd agree the BBC does a great job.

I don't think the United States necessarily needs public broadcasting, but it does need a more rigorous media that cares less about their bottom line and more about journalistic quality. I think the United States has the talent, particularly in many of their newspapers. I think the US needs the forum.

Commercial televesion can do it, I think Al Jazeera does an admirable job as a media organisation for the middle east. Factual reporting and a lot of real discussion.

I don't know if what the US needs is an Al-Jazeera or a BBC. But it needs something that can bring people together in a national conversation. There needs to be debate that brings in America's academics, politicians, government leaders and bureaucrats, trade unionists, charity leaders and the general public. As an example, when the topic of climate change is being discussed, I want to see leading climate scientists on the stage, stating the facts. Not just ideologues trading talking points.

Instead the United States has a circus of uninformed pundits.

I think the US probably needs to go the non-commercial route, and have a non-commercial broadcaster that people can really get behind.
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Old 2011-09-08, 16:00   Link #451
Vexx
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Well you could argue that one of the things the United States lack is a high quality public broadcasting institution. Certainly I'd agree the BBC does a great job.

I don't think the United States necessarily needs public broadcasting, but it does need a more rigorous media that cares less about their bottom line and more about journalistic quality. I think the United States has the talent, particularly in many of their newspapers. I think the US needs the forum.

Commercial televesion can do it, I think Al Jazeera does an admirable job as a media organisation for the middle east. Factual reporting and a lot of real discussion.

I don't know if what the US needs is an Al-Jazeera or a BBC. But it needs something that can bring people together in a national conversation. There needs to be debate that brings in America's academics, politicians, government leaders and bureaucrats, trade unionists, charity leaders and the general public. As an example, when the topic of climate change is being discussed, I want to see leading climate scientists on the stage, stating the facts. Not just ideologues trading talking points.

Instead the United States has a circus of uninformed pundits.

I think the US probably needs to go the non-commercial route, and have a non-commercial broadcaster that people can really get behind.
We do have PBS and some of it is very very good... but long and furious attempts to defund it of government support have been mostly successful, leaving it at the mercy of "interested corporations" who now provide a fair amount of funding. As a result, it is much less likely you're going to see critical and investigative reporting... or hardcore Q&A like you do outside the US. Commercial news in the US was better when the networks had to do it IN ORDER TO KEEP THEIR BROADCAST LICENSE i.e. a community service. When that requirement vanished (along with the idea they were borrowing the public airwaves), they got the bright idea that "news" should be a profit center like any other segment of their broadcasting -- that led directly to the "tabloidization" and slashing of investigation budgets. Click open any random local news in the US - it will look remarkably like any other "local news" and often have the same 2 or 3 stories -- because whether its Oregon or Florida, its owned by the same 2 or 3 corporations who cut costs by "sharing news stories" and keeping actual local news down to one car crash or puppy story.

All because the rules against owning a dominant portion of the news space in any region have vanished, as well as the requirements for community service to keep a license, as well as... well, you get the picture: careful dismantlement to emasculate the "4th estate".
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Old 2011-09-08, 16:12   Link #452
solomon
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NPR and PBS I use for overview because they have too little money to do anything else.

Here in Washington D.C. we get Al-Jazeera and France 24 over the air and because there is almost no interesting syndicated tv (or prime time broadcast tv anymore) most of the time it's tuned to those channels. Because they actually cover a lot of stuff in detail.

I still like reading the Washington Post. The Christian Science Monitor is good too. I used to read the New York Time but it's subscription model now and i'm too lazy and penniless to pay for online news.

All the "power" in the news is held by the cable networks. And I don't care weither youre right (Fox) or Left (MSNBC) they're all IDIOTIC.
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Old 2011-09-08, 17:58   Link #453
Reckoner
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That was seriously one of the least informative hours I've spent in a long time. All I got from that debate is that Perry is just very dangerous and should not be allowed in the white house at all costs.

Other than that, how general can we be?

How many times do I have to hear general bull shit without anything to support it like "I created jobs in my homestate (With what policy?) so I can create jobs at the white house (Again, with what policy and is your state even applicable as an example for the entire nation?)."

Seriously, they talk a lot, but not a whole lot of information about what they'd specifically would do and how that would benefit us. What a joke.
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Old 2011-09-08, 19:04   Link #454
DonQuigleone
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Well I just watched Obama's big speech. Certainly the sentiment is hard to disagree with, but that's how it usually is with Obama's speeches. The big question is whether there was anything concrete behind it. Given that he was trying to sell his jobs act, it really comes down to the act itself, and whether it will do what he says it does. Certainly I like the sound of it.

If his act holds up, he's basically thrown down the gauntlet down to congress and made it very difficult politically for them not to pass the act. There was nothing meaningful they could possibly object to, bar perhaps the public works. But I think Obama's idea was to blitzkrieg the Congress before they could get their machine out to destroy his act like they did with Obamacare. His speech went out on national television, with the eyes of a large percentage of the electorate on it. If the republicans poo poo it they'll probably suffer a bit popularity hit.

Let's see how well Obama's tactics work out.
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Old 2011-09-08, 19:07   Link #455
ChainLegacy
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Agree with Perry being the least qualified to run anything, let alone a country. His statement on the death penalty, when asked if he ever second-guessed his decision.... to say no, firmly, confidently, to such a question... it just screams lunacy. Does he believe himself infallible? Does he not realize how likely, how possible it is someone is wrongly convicted?
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Old 2011-09-08, 19:37   Link #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
I just wish they'd count the popular vote and not this electoral bs. We could've had Gore instead of Bush II, this pisses me off to no end.
Thank God Gore or Kerry were not elected, as they make Bush seem competent in comparison. Also America is not a true Democracy, and never has been, so a President will not be elected by the populace directly, without Amending the Constitution.

I didnt watch the debate as I am not impressed with any of these candidates. i also could not watch the 'jobs' speech, as I was busy working before we had a major power outtage throughout Southern California that could affect us into tomorrow(currently on my phone). I am sure this speech was like every other speeh Obama was given, and has no real substance to it.

Chain: If Perry, who has been Governor for two plus terms of a major state, is not qualified to be President, then how the hell was Obama ever qualified to run a lemonade stand in comparison, let alone the Presidency?
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Old 2011-09-08, 20:29   Link #457
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Thank God Gore or Kerry were not elected, as they make Bush seem competent in comparison.
since neither were president, we don't how it would have work out. But i do think if Gore was president, there would have been much lower chance of the US getting into 2 wars.

i don't know about you Justin, but i could care less if there is democracy in Iraq. I do however care very much about the trillions this country had waste in Iraq.

Quote:
Also America is not a true Democracy, and never has been, so a President will not be elected by the populace directly, without Amending the Constitution.
While it does take a Amendment to get rid of the electoral college. There are ways within the states get around that. The States do have a right to appropriated their electoral votes how they like. They can stay with the current winner takes all or like Maine, electoral votes are appropriate by which district the candidates win.


Quote:
Chain: If Perry, who has been Governor for two plus terms of a major state, is not qualified to be President, then how the hell was Obama ever qualified to run a lemonade stand in comparison, let alone the Presidency?
Whether Obama is qualify or not doesn't have any bearing on Perry qualifications. My beef with Perry and the most republican candidates in general are their Anti-Science stance.
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Old 2011-09-08, 20:30   Link #458
Vexx
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Oh, Perry is "qualifed" (though Texas politics is a very different 'aminal than federal politics and I don't think governorship has a lot of bearing on presidential skills)... its just that he's apparently an ill-educated zealot Dominionist in the pockets of the plutocrat division. As you say, none of these candidates are impressive. I could probably tolerate Huntsman or gone-now Pawlenty, perhaps Gingrich even, but the rest are simply dangerous and stupid. Quite obstinately stupid it seems unless they're lying through their teeth to fool the wingnut base. Ron Paul is in his own circle ... I think it'd be really interesting to watch if he stuck to his stated principles in office (before the Big Boys had him assassinated after he went Teddy Roosevelt on their gold-plated feeding troughs ).

Obama got hung out to dry by the corporate wings of both parties and Bush spent some trillions of dollars off the books and literally bleeding our military personnel to death while cutting taxes on the ultra-wealthy to the lowest in history - and now the bill is being foisted on the Everyone Else rather than the bastards that put us there. Profits are the highest in history (read entire human history) for a very small group at the expense of Everyone Else and they seem to be pursuing a scorched earth policy in regard to Main Street at the moment.

Last edited by Vexx; 2011-09-08 at 20:45.
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Old 2011-09-08, 20:41   Link #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Oh, he's "qualifed" (though Texas politics is a very different aminal than federal politics)... its just that he's apparently an ill-educated zealot Dominionist in the pockets of the plutocrat division. As you say, none of these candidates are impressive. I could probably tolerate Huntsman or gone-now Pawlenty, perhaps Gingrich even, but the rest are simply dangerous and stupid.
It doesnt matter if any of them get elected, or Obama stays four more ears. NOTHING will improve. The 2nd shoe has yet to fully drop, and I dont think there is a damn thing we can do about it...


Obama is every bit as out of touch with reality as the GOP candidates are. None of them have a damn clue. I keep asking, are these elitests really the best America has to offer?
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Old 2011-09-08, 20:43   Link #460
ChainLegacy
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Chain: If Perry, who has been Governor for two plus terms of a major state, is not qualified to be President, then how the hell was Obama ever qualified to run a lemonade stand in comparison, let alone the Presidency?
Lol, you assume because I'm bashing Perry, I'm an Obama fan? Wouldn't mind if both Obama and Perry disappeared from the planet tomorrow, actually I'd be quite pleased. Only politicians I have any respect for are Ron Paul and Kucinich.

Now as for your question, I don't care if he ran the state for two million years. If he's willing to say with 100% conviction that he does not second guess any of the people he's sent to death, how can ANYONE call him qualified? Even if you're pro death-penalty, even if you LOVE the death penalty for some morbid reason... never second guessing a decision that determines the outcome of someone's LIFE? UHHH??
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