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Old 2012-06-06, 09:37   Link #4721
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
So, any guess in how many years will the republic fall and give rise to the empire?
Never. The worst case scenario is a return of the Aristocracy. An Empire can only arise if there was actually someone strong enough to rule it; there isn't one.

This is actually where China is right now... In fact, where China has always returned to. Powerful families calling the shots. The system do work, it just has no real liberty.
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Old 2012-06-06, 10:32   Link #4722
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Never. The worst case scenario is a return of the Aristocracy. An Empire can only arise if there was actually someone strong enough to rule it; there isn't one.

This is actually where China is right now... In fact, where China has always returned to. Powerful families calling the shots. The system do work, it just has no real liberty.
south Korea has something similar as well.

Chaebol I think it is called.

I suppose Asia is more overt with it... but Aristocracy will never die.

Even the Communist USSR had Aristocracy... they just wore the same clothes as the proles.
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Old 2012-06-06, 10:33   Link #4723
james0246
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
They called it at 25%. That takes a certain level of balls and definitely raises suspicions.
This is a little late, but what the hey...

They can predict the results based on previous precinct and distract numbers and party leanings. If the district Madison is in routinely votes Democratic, and the initial 25% polls lean heavily Democratic, then it is easy to say the Democrats won the district. Conversely, the large swath of Wisconsin's districts leans Republican (in many cases they heavily lean Republican), and if the early polls shows little to no change from previous elections, then even at 25% polling, it is fairly easy to predict a winner. Does this always work? No. But it works far more often than it fails.

That being said, I always expected Walker to succeed. Truthfully, I found it preposterous and a waste of money for the state to even go through the process of a recall. I may disagree with much of what Walker is/was doing, but I never though it was recall "worthy". Quite honestly, I expect the Democrats did more harm with the recall than good.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:33   Link #4724
Vexx
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What Vallen says, we have in effect a "neo-aristocracy" in formation. A two tier society with a different set of rules for each. The peasants supporting this will be led on by the illusion they can enter the top tier but there will be no such actual path to being a member of the "inner circle". At best, they'll give the most lockstep peasants a slightly shinier hat but crush them just the same under the same onerous obstacles.

You know this wouldn't be actually terrible if the top tier understood that keeping all the boats in the harbor safe was a good long term strategy for their own survival -- but they appear to have forgotten that lesson of history.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:17   Link #4725
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
What Vallen says, we have in effect a "neo-aristocracy" in formation.
Which IMO is the worst case scenario, with a dicator the problem is solved as soon as he dies. But with an aristocracy it does not matter if the dicator dies or is killed, the system will produce a new one to take his place.

Quote:
You know this wouldn't be actually terrible if the top tier understood that keeping all the boats in the harbor safe was a good long term strategy for their own survival -- but they appear to have forgotten that lesson of history.
I do not quite undestand this reference, specialy because AFAIK IRL when a hurricane is comming ashore it is safer to leave the harbor and go into the deep sea to evade the sudden ocean level height surge.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:52   Link #4726
Vexx
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Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Which IMO is the worst case scenario, with a dicator the problem is solved as soon as he dies. But with an aristocracy it does not matter if the dicator dies or is killed, the system will produce a new one to take his place.
You have a form of plutocracy in which there are not only a few billionaires but also undying immortal constructs (corporations) that they've defined as "people" behind whom the plutocrats operate with impunity.


Quote:
I do not quite undestand this reference, specialy because AFAIK IRL when a hurricane is comming ashore it is safer to leave the harbor and go into the deep sea to evade the sudden ocean level height surge.
Its a reference to the proverb that "all boats in the harbor rise and fall together whether the big boats think so or not".
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Old 2012-06-06, 13:14   Link #4727
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You have a form of plutocracy in which there are not only a few billionaires but also undying immortal constructs (corporations) that they've defined as "people" behind whom the plutocrats operate with impunity.
Wouldn't it be nice if some dying multimillionarie transferred his conciousness (copying the contents of his brain into a computer) into the corporation as to give it a will and since corporations are now considered people, it will own itself and rule us for eternity ...

Quote:
Its a reference to the proverb that "all boats in the harbor rise and fall together whether the big boats think so or not".
Arigatou gozaimasu
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Old 2012-06-06, 13:36   Link #4728
Ithekro
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All it will take is someone with a lot of charisma. While I doubt someone would be able to turn this into an Empire due to the nature of all the checks to prevent such a thing from happening, I do think that someone with enough charisma could topple the corporate structure. All they need is enough of the people behind them and that much push to get Congress to move.

It happened before when the Monopolies fell and the likes of Standard Steel fell. All it will take is someone with enough charisma (and luck to not get assassinated) to call them out on Citizens United. Bill Gates is a person. Bill Gates is a citizen. Microsoft is not a person, nor a citizen. Every man and woman working for Microsoft is a person, and some of them are US citizens (some may be citizens of other counties as it is a multinational corporation these days). Each person that is a US citizen that works for Microsoft gets a vote and can contribute funds to political parties or whatnots. Microsoft itself, is not a person, nor a citizen. If it is to have a say, it should have the multiple says of its employees...not a single stamp. If Microsaoft is given a vote...as well as its employees, than that is one too many votes, as Microsoft is not a person. Microsaft cannot walk to the voting booth to vote, nor could it prove its identity with a Birth Certificate to register to vote.
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Old 2012-06-06, 14:45   Link #4729
Zetsubo
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So is there really an attempt at empire building ?
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Old 2012-06-06, 14:48   Link #4730
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
So is there really an attempt at empire building ?
Not really. As I say, there isn't the right kind of person for that sort of thing. No emperor means no empire. The "charismatic leader" does not currently exist in America. Not yet anyway.
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Old 2012-06-06, 14:52   Link #4731
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Frankly, I have a personally reason to not want China to become the world's dominant superpower. But America really isn't helping in that regard.

Do the fools really think winding back time would make America great again? Because by that argument, China should have go back to the Imperial system. Despite the corruption and cruelty, China has realistic politicians. Their entire goal is "do what works", not "do what we believe" like what Americans think. They will do what they need to do to hold onto power, but they know there is no point tearing down the country to do this. American politicians, however, appear to not share the same common sense.
the difference is China is run by engineers. The US is run by lawyers.
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Old 2012-06-06, 14:59   Link #4732
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the difference is China is run by engineers. The US is run by lawyers.
See, one explanation is that China has actually tried to run a country using lawyers; they ended up with the Great Leap Forward and starved everyone to death.

Doing what works was the lesson China learned. Ideology doesn't work by itself if it detaches from reality.

Let's hope America can skip learning the hard way. We whouldn't really need to have 30 million people starve to death before the government realised it is messed up.
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Old 2012-06-06, 15:11   Link #4733
Ithekro
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The "American Empire" is one that does not have an emperor (unless you count Norton the First). It can operate on a figurehead for a number of years..then we elect a new one. But such an Empire is not an empire when it is not true to itself, nor when it is not a "relatively" stable influence on the world around it.

The "American Empire" was probably only really viable as such under the two Roosevelts. Theodore ran it at the beginning following the death of McKinley and the large overseas expantion that followed the Spanish-American War.

Franklin managed it as a way to end the Depression and managed it for 12 years until his death. Though a World War is largely what kept him in power (the opponents not being able to generate enough votes against him). However his four-terms did lead to the present day two-term limit on the Presidency.

Inbetween the "Empire" was not much of one save under Wilson...but the Great War divided things and the American in the aftermath didn't want to play on the world field, and became isolationists, ending the "Empire" for a time.

After World War II, the "Empire" was more a giant Alliance verse the Soviet Union than anything else. When the Soviet Union fell, the Alliance also fell apart as they had nothing to do (effectively). The Americans had no goal, so the "Empire" did not reform.

The "nation building" during the Bush administration did not build an Empire, nor did it build an Emperor. With the country more and more divided, an Empire cannot viably form. United, an "American Empire" might once again appear like it did under the Roosevelts, but not yet.

It will take someone with serious charisma and speaking power to unite the Americans again. Obama doesn't have that. Romney doesn't have that. No one that I am aware of has that at present. When someone does step up to those standard...it will just depend on which way they swing the country. Because they might "speak softly"...but they will have a "Big Stick" to swing.
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Old 2012-06-06, 15:47   Link #4734
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

It will take someone with serious charisma and speaking power to unite the Americans again.
we just need to wait for the God-Emperor.
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Old 2012-06-06, 17:07   Link #4735
Zetsubo
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
we just need to wait for the God-Emperor.
Special Armour is needed for that
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Old 2012-06-06, 17:13   Link #4736
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It will take someone with serious charisma and speaking power to unite the Americans again.
I think you exagerate the relevance of charisma in the process of empire building. Until the invention of microphones and radio communications it was logistically imposible for an emperor to use his personal charisma to rally the troops or address the nation. Even when this became available the emperor of Japan only addressed the nation to accept defeat because it was never required from him to keep the morale of the troops high. The emperor is surrounded by a group that profit from his power and help them convince the peasants of whatever he ordered. In the past one of such positions was held by religious leaders, who better to convince everyone? Nowadays that power (in most countries) resides in the mass media. You only need two things to wage war on behalf of the emperor, convince everyone there is an evil enemy and that its destruction/defeat is required for everyone to live a peaceful life; "Carthage Must be Destroyed" was the motto that created the roman empire and I believe something similar might trigger the fall of the republic in the usa, maybe not today, but in the near future. Also, remember that an emperor can be but a public figure, like emperor akihito in wwII.
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Old 2012-06-06, 17:29   Link #4737
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
See, one explanation is that China has actually tried to run a country using lawyers; they ended up with the Great Leap Forward and starved everyone to death.
Naw, that was a case of China being ruled by revolutionaries. Mao had this strange idea that the peasant farmers could do all the jobs of the educated, without any education. The typical cliché was that he put farmers into hospitals, and doctors into fields.

And of course, his response to feeling he was losing power to launch another revolution.

Mao was a great guerilla leader, but he didn't know shit about running a country, he thought you could do it with peasant power and good intentions, and he was paranoid of anyone who even seemed to be an expert.

Lawyers get a bad rap, but at least they're good at negotiating, which is really most of what government does (the cabinet posts do, in fact, get filled by those qualified for it). And when lawyers feel like they're losing power, they don't launch another revolution, but instead examine the rules, and see how they can bend it. Rule bending is annoying, but at least it's not a cultural revolution.

I would like it, though, if the represantitives in committees had more independent knowledge, a lot of the time, they're too dependent on lobbyists for information, and can't easily practice their own independent judgement.

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2012-06-06 at 17:41.
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Old 2012-06-06, 22:13   Link #4738
ganbaru
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Republicans attack Obama over glitzy fundraisers
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8551EK20120606
Another time than the Republican should just shut up: that one was rather hypocrit.

Romney, Obama worlds apart on meaning of Wisconsin results
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8551GY20120606

Edit: another stupidity from Romney:
Mitt Romney: Obama Slowed The Recovery On Purpose
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...pose?ref=fpblg
Romney: Obama ‘knowingly’ held back economy to pass healthcare reform
http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch...lace-obamacare
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Last edited by ganbaru; 2012-06-06 at 22:41.
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Old 2012-06-06, 22:56   Link #4739
Vexx
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Republicans attack Obama over glitzy fundraisers
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8551EK20120606
Another time than the Republican should just shut up: that one was rather hypocrit.
Romney just finished a closed door, $2500+/plate dinner in Portland, he refused to talk to anyone outside of the dinner.

Apparently, ..... o never mind.
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Old 2012-06-06, 23:47   Link #4740
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Republicans attack Obama over glitzy fundraisers
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8551EK20120606
Another time than the Republican should just shut up: that one was rather hypocrit.

Romney, Obama worlds apart on meaning of Wisconsin results
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8551GY20120606

Edit: another stupidity from Romney:
Mitt Romney: Obama Slowed The Recovery On Purpose
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...pose?ref=fpblg
Romney: Obama ‘knowingly’ held back economy to pass healthcare reform
http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch...lace-obamacare
As I said a while back, I no longer care that GOP is saying and doing retarded things. I do care that there is enough retarded Americans who would actually be affected by these things, because otherwise they wouldn't be saying them.

I seriously can't help but imagine what a Chinese analysis of the American election would be like. They can make it a weekly TV show, talking about how stupid the Western voters are and how glad they are, that their own population would never fall for it.

Seriously, has any political pundits dared to state how stupid the voters are? Saying "If you believe this, you are a retard"?
Americans need to hear the hard truth at some point. I don't care how, just tell them!
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