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Old 2012-06-06, 23:55   Link #4741
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Seriously, has any political pundits dared to state how stupid the voters are? Saying "If you believe this, you are a retard"?
Americans need to hear the hard truth at some point. I don't care how, just tell them!
It'll be your luck some producer is reading this and develops a "reality tv show" around it.
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Old 2012-06-07, 00:13   Link #4742
Solace
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Quote:
another stupidity from Romney:
It's not stupid, it's Orwellian. It's the Big Lie at work.

Did removing collective bargaining in Wisconsin have anything to do with the budget? No. Did it save money? No. Don't believe me? Here's Walker testifying in front of Congress admitting that it doesn't:

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Did he balance the budget? Not exactly. Much like how people claim Clinton balanced the budget, the math is fuzzy and it's basically accounting tricks, shifting things from one area to another for example. In addition, he claims that he did this without raising taxes, which is a lie. He also used money from the mortgage settlement to plug budget holes (something other states did too, including Democratic ones).

And before I get jumped on for liberal bias, I'll happily point out that Democrats do this too, as I just noted about Clinton. The problem here is that both sides are guilty of misrepresenting or just flat out lying about these things to the voters.

What they'll do however is run to the cameras and repeat their talking points over and over again, justifying them with a grain of truth that has been distorted so much it becomes unrecognizable. Just today, you see Republicans claiming Clinton wants to keep the Bush tax cuts for everyone when that is not what he said at all.

This is why the media fails in its role of being the watchdog of society. When it cannot find the nerve to hold these people accountable for what they say, this is what you get. Sure, you'll get media acting like they're doing their job, but it is twisted through a biased lens because of the viewer they are trying to attract.

When I grumble about the influence and problems of money, this is the kind of stuff I mean. Media companies can't be trusted to deliver information anymore. The line between "news" and "opinion" has become so blurred it is often next to impossible to tell where one begins and the other ends. The constant revisiting of the same few talking points creates a cesspool of recycled commentary that swirls down the drain of obscurity. They can't question things too deeply because it would implicate themselves, for they are the establishment now, and thus it would mean their own end.

Does this mean people should suddenly turn to the internet, and praise the work of people like Alex Jones? Ugh, no. They're even worse. The internet is noise, pure and simple, and most people visit such sites because it aligns with what they already believe instead of challenging what they think they know. This is no different than the typical FOX or MSNBC viewer.

I saw a comment on HuffPost on Tuesday that went something like:

"The reason why public unions collective bargaining was bad is because they could use their funds to remove politicians who didn't agree with giving them a raise."

Replace unions with any other special interest that has excessive monetary influence on a politician and you have the same problem. FDR knew this, but it seems the wisdom of FDR has faded into obscurity as well.

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Old 2012-06-07, 07:55   Link #4743
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Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Special Armour is needed for that
I'd rather have some Spice Melange, tough Power Armor is nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
I think you exagerate the relevance of charisma in the process of empire building. Until the invention of microphones and radio communications it was logistically imposible for an emperor to use his personal charisma to rally the troops or address the nation. Even when this became available the emperor of Japan only addressed the nation to accept defeat because it was never required from him to keep the morale of the troops high. The emperor is surrounded by a group that profit from his power and help them convince the peasants of whatever he ordered. In the past one of such positions was held by religious leaders, who better to convince everyone? Nowadays that power (in most countries) resides in the mass media. You only need two things to wage war on behalf of the emperor, convince everyone there is an evil enemy and that its destruction/defeat is required for everyone to live a peaceful life; "Carthage Must be Destroyed" was the motto that created the roman empire and I believe something similar might trigger the fall of the republic in the usa, maybe not today, but in the near future. Also, remember that an emperor can be but a public figure, like emperor akihito in wwII.
Actually, if we go back to the Roman era, becoming an Emperor had a lot to do with charisma, for even tough he was a God figure, the Emperor was first and foremost the supreme general of his troops (numerous Emperors were acclamated into power by their legions, or conversely deposed by them), similarly, popularity among plebeian was important in consoliding public order.
Now, to put delenda est carthago as the origin of the Empire is a bit of a stretch, its advent being the consequence of a long organic process.
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Old 2012-06-07, 08:38   Link #4744
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Actually, if we go back to the Roman era, becoming an Emperor had a lot to do with charisma, for even tough he was a God figure, the Emperor was first and foremost the supreme general of his troops (numerous Emperors were acclamated into power by their legions, or conversely deposed by them), similarly, popularity among plebeian was important in consoliding public order.
That has little to do with his personal carisma and a lot to do with the politics of the emperor. I insist a full legion was made of about 5000 soldiers, addressing all of them directly on the battlefield was nigh imposible. Even on a building built for entertainment like the coliseum it would be imposible to give a sppech to all the attendants.

Quote:
Now, to put delenda est carthago as the origin of the Empire is a bit of a stretch, its advent being the consequence of a long organic process.
I know the empire started late on (when they started having emperors), but after destroying carthage they went into empire building mode.
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Old 2012-06-07, 13:04   Link #4745
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Even in the days of the Republic, you had charisma to lead the legions. The Senate would elect two or sometimes three military leaders who would be charged with the legions, be it for the defense of Rome or for conquest.

Plus the only ones they had to impress in those days were the free men. Women and slaves had no vote. And you can hear some of their volume of speech if you hear a good Vaudville stage actors from the 1920s speaking. Loud booming voice that doesn't need a microphone to be hear at that back of the theater.
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Old 2012-06-07, 14:09   Link #4746
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Even in the days of the Republic, you had charisma to lead the legions. The Senate would elect two or sometimes three military leaders who would be charged with the legions, be it for the defense of Rome or for conquest.
I'll be honest here, for a moment my brain didn't realize that you were talking about Rome and instead it thought you were talking about Star Wars. Those damn Senators are corrupt!
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Old 2012-06-07, 14:23   Link #4747
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Even in the days of the Republic, you had charisma to lead the legions.
We have been governed by lawyers for so long that we forget that there was a time when commander in chief needed to be a smart strategist, winning battles give him the authority to lead the troops. That is the reason collin powell was so respected, because he gave results in combat, then he attempted to do politics where everything is about sweet talking lies and he could not function properly.

Quote:
Loud booming voice that doesn't need a microphone to be hear at that back of the theater.
You do realize that theathers (since the era of the great greek tragedies script plays) are constructed to maximise the voice of the actors, it is not some kind of architectonic statement that they had this big dome built at the center stage. But theathers are not mobile and I have no recollection of any emperor inviting their troops/free men to the theather so one or two thosand people could hear their speech. Back then actions spoke louder than words, politicians did gave speeches, but that was because they wanted to gauge the public approval of some meausres. Abrhaman lincoln back in the day give many speeches to a few far between, had the masses heard him speaking he might not have become president, since the recollections of the day said his voice was a tenor, back then it was the IDEAS that captivated people, not the voice or the acting.

Last edited by mangamuscle; 2012-06-07 at 14:36.
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Old 2012-06-07, 14:34   Link #4748
Ithekro
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For all that, we still have no one on the horizon that has the charisma, in either actions or words, that can lead the country...either to Republic or Empire. (You are correct, I would have followed Collin Powell if he was elected President)

We barely have anyone charismatic enough to sell Corperate Rule. They are running on the repeat machine to tell the lie over and over and over again until we can no longer not think of it.

But a country run by the lie cannot stand as there is not truth for it stand on when things become real.
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Old 2012-06-07, 15:49   Link #4749
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
For all that, we still have no one on the horizon that has the charisma, in either actions or words, that can lead the country...either to Republic or Empire. (You are correct, I would have followed Collin Powell if he was elected President)

We barely have anyone charismatic enough to sell Corperate Rule. They are running on the repeat machine to tell the lie over and over and over again until we can no longer not think of it.

But a country run by the lie cannot stand as there is not truth for it stand on when things become real.
The current situation is clearly unsustainable. My opinion is that the plutocracy lives in such a comfy bubble that they think they're actually immune to another run of the natural tendencies of history, nations, and such. I feel like Alternate Spock in Star Trek's "Mirror Mirror" episode as he computes the amount of time before his evil empire collapses because it is unsustainable.
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Old 2012-06-07, 16:23   Link #4750
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The current situation is clearly unsustainable. My opinion is that the plutocracy lives in such a comfy bubble that they think they're actually immune to another run of the natural tendencies of history, nations, and such.
Either that or they think than they can get out before it touch them. Worse case scenario would be than some would see the '' natural tendency'' as a opportunity, a way to grab even more money and power.

Edit: Clinton aides: Bill screwed up
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77147.html
Quote:
Clinton, say associates, while mentally sharp, is older and a step off his political game, less attuned to the need for clarity and message-discipline during interviews.
He’s 65 years old,” said one adviser, explaining how Clinton in a CNBC interview managed to say that the economy was in recession when it is not.
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Old 2012-06-07, 16:33   Link #4751
Vexx
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Small bright light - every single one of Florida's county election supervisors (67 of them) tell Gov. "you can't vote" Scott to stuff it with his targeted voting purges:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...s-voter-purge/

(that includes all the ones registered as Republicans, btw)
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...e-voter-purge/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinellas County Supervisor of Elections Deborah Clark (R)
The accuracy of the voter registration database is of the utmost importance
and we will continue our efforts to ensure the information is current.
However, we will not use unreliable data
.
And over in Wisconsin... it looks like the Republi-cons have lost control of the Wisconsin Senate - that "one seat flipped" as I suggested might happen.

Last edited by Vexx; 2012-06-07 at 16:43.
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Old 2012-06-07, 17:14   Link #4752
Bri
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
FDR knew this, but it seems the wisdom of FDR has faded into obscurity as well.

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It's a shame individuals who'd be as outspoken and capable as FDR won't make it in Washington anymore. Both parties now present us with shallow poster boys whose main talent is to dodge dirt and charm people at fundraisers.
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Old 2012-06-07, 17:43   Link #4753
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Lawyers get a bad rap, but at least they're good at negotiating, which is really most of what government does (the cabinet posts do, in fact, get filled by those qualified for it).
The problem is that in a country with 1/3 of the world population of lawyers, they tend to take longer than usual to do anything (the typical "how many lawyers take to change a lightbulb" joke) and they tend to make trouble where none existed to justify their existence. <-- this does not change whether they are inside or outsida a goverment office.
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Old 2012-06-08, 04:49   Link #4754
ganbaru
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Obama campaign raises more questions about Romney's wealth
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8561JB20120607
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Old 2012-06-08, 12:49   Link #4755
Vexx
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The Federal Reserve tells Congress that the economy is about to blow up in their face because of their own laziness (pre-programmed social cuts and tax increases while they spend all their time on political grandstanding and vacationing) .... at least that's what I'm hearing from Bernanke.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1577631.html

Quote:
He declined to suggest which combination of spending increases and tax cuts lawmakers might want to undertake, but he warned them that they had just months to act before the economy fell off the fiscal cliff. Congress imposed the automatic austerity measures on the country last year as punishment for Congress's own failure to come up with a long-term plan to cut deficits. They have about six months to act, or the entire country will pay for Congress's sins.

"What is particularly striking here is that this is all preprogrammed," Bernanke told the frequently vacationing Congress. "If you all go on vacation it's still going to happen."
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Old 2012-06-08, 13:34   Link #4756
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The Federal Reserve tells Congress that the economy is about to blow up in their face because of their own laziness (pre-programmed social cuts and tax increases while they spend all their time on political grandstanding and vacationing) .... at least that's what I'm hearing from Bernanke.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1577631.html
Most people are betting on the 2012 elections to rally the market, as it has always done in the past.

Seriously, that isn't enough. People aren't buying US anymore because US isn't letting them buy in with all that import-and-resale from China, and the product management (especially that in of media) they came up with.
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Old 2012-06-08, 13:39   Link #4757
Ithekro
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Some are probably just betting the world will end before 2013.
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Old 2012-06-08, 13:59   Link #4758
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Some are probably just betting the world will end before 2013.
That is what I call a self-fullfilled prohecy
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Old 2012-06-08, 15:30   Link #4759
Vexx
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Just some confirmation of what people paying attention already knew... that the drug and insurance lobby completely subverted the health care reform by threatening to bury anyone who tried to change the status quo significantly. Coercion on both parties to create a kabuki theater... it doesn't show one party or the other as having any strength to ward off the bottomless pit of money the corporate lobbies can bring to bear thanks to Citizens United...

Don't be surprised if they actually resist any Republican attempts to overturn it...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/us...alth-care.html

Quote:
“Republicans trumpeting these e-mails is like a fox complaining someone else raided the chicken coop,” said Robert Reich, the former labor secretary under President Bill Clinton. “Sad to say, it’s called politics in an era when big corporations have an effective veto over major legislation affecting them and when the G.O.P. is usually the beneficiary. In this instance, the G.O.P. was outfoxed. Who are they to complain?”
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Old 2012-06-08, 16:04   Link #4760
mangamuscle
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So no canadian medicines. Mexican medicines are even cheaper (and they are the same medicines, people over here does not get cured with placebos). I would not be surprised on the years to come that sick/poor people all over the USA start looking for drug traficants to get their monthly medication _-_
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