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Old 2012-06-20, 01:18   Link #4961
Triple_R
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It's not a question of illegal immigrants taking jobs from people who were born in the country. Synaesthetic is probably right on that, at least to a degree - A lot of those jobs wouldn't have been worked by a person who was born in America anyway. So no, in a lot of cases, jobs aren't being 'taken away' anyway.

But vast population increases cause other issues, like having to build more housing, enlarge (or build more) city subways, increase the capacities of your education and medicare systems (or, conversely, lowering the quality of these systems if capacity isn't properly increased, which could tie into the point that Reckoner just raised), etc...

That's precisely why I asked: Is it the position of some people here that there should be no limits or regulation on immigration whatsoever?

Some here (particularly Syn) seem to be hinting at a 'Yes' answer, and for that reason, I think my question is a fair and reasonable one to pose. I also have to admit that I'm simply curious as to what the answer would be.
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Old 2012-06-20, 01:22   Link #4962
Vexx
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I'd assert that it obviously needs to be *regulated* but that we're just screwing around with a fair number of people who bring a lot to the table, be they going the "legal obstacle course" or slipping under the fence. Far too much of the INS seems to be structured to be some Kafkaesque nightmare of simply wrecking people's lives and doing us as a country no good.
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Old 2012-06-20, 01:29   Link #4963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'd assert that it obviously needs to be *regulated* but that we're just screwing around with a fair number of people who bring a lot to the table, be they going the "legal obstacle course" or slipping under the fence. Far too much of the INS seems to be structured to be some Kafkaesque nightmare of simply wrecking people's lives and doing us as a country no good.
Thanks for answering the question. The US immigration system probably should be made a bit looser (and certainly faster) than what it is.

My main point is that I think the US political leadership needs to think more comprehensively and long-term about these issues, and try to find a good balance that's fair and reasonable to people, and helpful to the American economy.
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Old 2012-06-20, 01:38   Link #4964
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Have you ever heard about "cause and effect"? The prior is the cause, the latter is the effect, plain and simple. Absurd is blamming the effect and not the cause.
So it's about blame now? I thought it was about policy.

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Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
By conservatism, I didn't really talk about political party, my bad I misued words. It was simply "he wants the thing to be stagnant".

But yes ... But from his time and now, things changed and immigration perspective/laws need to, of course I'm not saying all illegal people should be "naturalized" but at least, deal with this unfair affair of illegal children that even though they lived for ages in US, they -one day- need to leave because the system isn't well made.
All we know is that he opposes one particular change. That doesn't make him a conservative. (Take, for example, all the guys who opposed the retirement reform in France. They're conservatives?)
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Old 2012-06-20, 01:48   Link #4965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So it's about blame now? I thought it was about policy.


All we know is that he opposes one particular change. That doesn't make him a conservative. (Take, for example, all the guys who opposed the retirement reform in France. They're conservatives?)
In fairness, the left-right divide in North America tends to be more clear than it is in Europe (so that influences how people perceive individuals even over just one given political stand).

In Europe, you have political parties that are solidly liberal/progressive on fiscal issues, but are also strongly anti-immigration. Such a political creature would seem utterly bizarre to most North Americans, due to its unusual combination of "liberal" and "conservative" by North American standards.
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Old 2012-06-20, 02:21   Link #4966
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Aye... I can count hundred engineers and computer software personnel I know without digging too hard who are simply unemployed, substantially underemployed, or have changed careers entirely to something with much lower pay because the corporations are sitting on vast sums of cash. This has absolutely NO IMPACT from illegal immigration. The vanishing of the manufacturing sector - has NO IMPACT from illegal immigration.

They simply aren't "taking jobs away" from anyone outside of perhaps the unskilled uneducated (and it could be they work harder) - they're doing jobs no one here either will do or can do without tearing up their lives (no money to relocate, etc).

I suppose one could ask why the business owners and corporations employing them aren't paying for the additional load on the public infrastructure??
They are sitting on vast sums of cash because there isn't anywhere else for them to invest and grow a minimum 20% in capital returns per year.

Investing in manpower wouldn't even net them a return of 10% since they have to pay more to offset the high living costs borne by the middle and working class, so they would rather sit on the cash.

Idiots. Having a small return is better than having no return at all. Don't be greedy.
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Old 2012-06-20, 04:10   Link #4967
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Idiots. Having a small return is better than having no return at all. Don't be greedy.
They prefer to get ridiculously high paycheck than to to help their fellow citizens.
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Old 2012-06-20, 13:09   Link #4968
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
They prefer to get ridiculously high paycheck than to to help their fellow citizens.
The high paycheck is unsustainable. Similar to the concept of dollar cost averaging, investing a little at a time and getting back a little at a time goes a long way to reduce losses.

Want more money? Diversify. Though there is technically only 2 frontiers left out of the hands of business : India and Africa.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-06-20, 14:47   Link #4969
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Aye... I can count hundred engineers and computer software personnel I know without digging too hard who are simply unemployed, substantially underemployed, or have changed careers entirely to something with much lower pay because the corporations are sitting on vast sums of cash.
The saddest part is that this is not going to change. Gone are the days where entrepeneurs were supposed to make a gamble when starting a new business. Nowadays not only they do not want to start new business, they want to invest their money with a 100% return rate, they are probably waiting tor the USA to start a new war to cash on it :/
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Old 2012-06-20, 14:53   Link #4970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Well if you want to talk about problems with jobs in this country... I was looking at graduate programs for computer science the other day at some of the top schools and apparently in some of these schools half or more of the admitted students are FOREIGNERS.

This is just so utterly pathetic that people in the US are either not going into these sorts of STEM fields, or suck at them so hard that we're pretty much outsourcing all sorts of jobs to people not from this country. The infrastructure in this country for getting the education we need to prepare students for college and direct them into better fields is completely broken and we're far behind other countries.

Illegal immigrants taking minimum wage jobs from us does next to nothing compared to this problem.
The reason for all the foreigners is pretty simple.

a) There are a lot of foreign tech workers who will work for a lot less money than American tech types of equal skill and education--not that American code monkeys really make much money either.

b) There is a shortage of highly-skilled, highly-educated, highly-experienced software and other compsci-related engineers. Google and Facebook keep hiring all of them, so there aren't many left for anyone else. Thus, they attempt to import them.
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Old 2012-06-20, 15:21   Link #4971
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Want more money? Diversify. Though there is technically only 2 frontiers left out of the hands of business : India and Africa.
For what I read, India is a real mess for corporation and for Africa, isn't China already implanting itself there where it's worth, buying its spot.
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Old 2012-06-20, 15:52   Link #4972
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...85J0UF20120620

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House panel votes (Attorney General) Holder in contempt of Congress
Well, we have this piece of happening today.
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Old 2012-06-20, 16:03   Link #4973
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Well if you want to talk about problems with jobs in this country... I was looking at graduate programs for computer science the other day at some of the top schools and apparently in some of these schools half or more of the admitted students are FOREIGNERS.

This is just so utterly pathetic that people in the US are either not going into these sorts of STEM fields, or suck at them so hard that we're pretty much outsourcing all sorts of jobs to people not from this country. The infrastructure in this country for getting the education we need to prepare students for college and direct them into better fields is completely broken and we're far behind other countries.
That's not a bad thing. Top students from around the world (with some kind of decent financial backing) all want to go to best rated universities. Capacity is rarely an issue at undergraduate programs and these students raise the average level.

The fact these students want to go to the US to study, means that at least in computer science the US universities are still the "Premier League". I'd start to worry if foreigners start to ignore US programs for those of other countries.
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Old 2012-06-20, 16:04   Link #4974
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
They prefer to get ridiculously high paycheck than to to help their fellow citizens.
It's by construction. Companies are about money. Different people - who may never meet, and who might hate each other on sight - come together for the sake of making money. They may not agree on much, but they have in common that they all want to make money.

So charity's out of question. Even if you get 60% of the shareholders to agree to give one million dollars to a charity, an expense you can't somehow justify as a PR or tax break getting move, giving that money away would be stealing from the holders of the 40%. Maybe they're selfish, or maybe they have their own problems and need the cash, or maybe they want to give to a different charity - it doesn't matter. Using the company resources for something unrelated to it is unethical, and illegal.

If you really can't figure out what to do with the money, distribute it as dividends and maybe the recipients will give to charity.
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Old 2012-06-20, 16:25   Link #4975
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Sounds more like a "make a million dollars now and fold up the company because we cannot sustain these levels because no one will be able to afford the product in two years" or "make a Seven Hundred Thousand now, and remain in business for decades because people can buy out produces.....thus over time generating more than that million easily".

If you don't hire enough of the population and give them wages or salaries to purchase your goods....your good will not be purchased. Then you go out of business entirely.
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Old 2012-06-20, 16:35   Link #4976
Anh_Minh
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Those are business decisions. It's fine. I'm questioning the mentality of "they should help their fellow men out of the goodness of their hearts".

And there's also the tragedy of the commons problem. Or maybe the prisoner's dilemma. Sure, if everyone hires, it's better for everyone. But if you're the only one who hires when you have no use for more employees, it's better for everyone else, but worse for you.
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Old 2012-06-20, 17:23   Link #4977
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Those are business decisions. It's fine. I'm questioning the mentality of "they should help their fellow men out of the goodness of their hearts".

And there's also the tragedy of the commons problem. Or maybe the prisoner's dilemma. Sure, if everyone hires, it's better for everyone. But if you're the only one who hires when you have no use for more employees, it's better for everyone else, but worse for you.
Fundamental problem is that the most economic growth since the eighties has been absorbed by the top incomes who invest/save rather than spent on consumption goods/services. From a macro-perspective the factor labor has been underpaid due to extreme bargaining power at the end of the capital providers. The result is a demand shortage.

The public sector to an extent has compensated for this lack of demand by deficit spending, but that is unsustainable. The US does not have a significant export sector that could boost demand. It's pretty much waiting till the next technological breakthrough will create more employment in new industries.
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Old 2012-06-20, 17:37   Link #4978
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If you don't hire enough of the population and give them wages or salaries to purchase your goods....your good will not be purchased. Then you go out of business entirely.
That used to be the case in the Days of Henry Ford.

But that system broke when debt slavery was invented.

You don't need to make goods to get money from the poor. You just need to lend them money, and charge them interest that they can never pay back. This will lead to them giving all of their disposable income to you for the rest of their lives without you needing to do anything.
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Old 2012-06-20, 20:12   Link #4979
ganbaru
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Romney campaign fends off immigration questions
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...85J1J620120620
Quote:
Questions on the Republican challenger's position on immigration dominated a campaign conference call Wednesday that was supposed to be about the economy. The call was cut off early after what a Romney staffer said were "off-topic" questions.
It should be more ''in topic'' than Obama's birth certificate or his extremist teacher but thoses are comming from republican ...
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Old 2012-06-21, 01:36   Link #4980
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The reason for all the foreigners is pretty simple.

a) There are a lot of foreign tech workers who will work for a lot less money than American tech types of equal skill and education--not that American code monkeys really make much money either.

b) There is a shortage of highly-skilled, highly-educated, highly-experienced software and other compsci-related engineers. Google and Facebook keep hiring all of them, so there aren't many left for anyone else. Thus, they attempt to import them.
Microsoft actually started a Vancouver development office a few years back primarily to house employees they couldn't bring to their US locations (namely their headquarters about 150 miles to the south in Washington State) in a timely manner - not sure if the situation has improved since, but they still maintain a development office here.
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