AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-09-09, 02:59   Link #481
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
In short, she'd be the kind of President who'd make folks like justinstrife start a whole new, uniquely American "Eat-Your-Own-Gun Day"?

wellllll, she's a 'gun toting progressive' (yes we have a lot of those in the US actually) so no.. .but she might want to know if he cleans them after every use.
Basically, if you like an environment where you have a certain expectation of stability so that you and others can prosper then that requires participation in the process of creating that stability.

As for Perry, its looking more and more like he's certainly sociopathic and possibly borderline psychopathic -- and I do mean that in a clinical way.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 03:02   Link #482
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Psychopaths pathologically lie.
So do most politicians. Many lawyers do as well. In fact, one of the fun things about psychology is that you can read all the great studies that show a correlation between hierarchical power and reckless behavior.

And it is behavior. Nothing is untreatable or incurable, if the time and resources are spent finding the root causes and treating them before they become problems. Many criminals are victims of abuse, poverty, and other unhealthy social environments just as many corporate and political criminals are products of their environments.

Few people are raised to commit crimes, and even fewer are born with the mental disorders that make such behaviors inevitable. These behaviors are learned and encouraged by the society we live in.

What about those who are simply "criminally insane"? It's difficult to say. As science has improved so has our ability to recognize and treat afflicted individuals, as well as root out the difference between those who truly have mental problems versus those who don't but act like they do for whatever reason. Remember that we're still not too far away in history from the days of locking people up in insane asylums and experimenting on them to "drive the demons out". Although used rarely today, shock therapy was a normal procedure half a century ago - well within the lifetimes of many today. The Stanford Prison experiment, a fascinating study on sociological and psychological behavior which resulted in a huge ethical outcry, resulting in a massive overhaul of scientific ethics standards, was only a few decades ago.

Countries like Norway show that you can have some success in using different approaches to treating the "undesired" of society beyond locking them up and throwing away the keys. However many nations, America included, still define justice in "eye for an eye" terms. Despite the crowing about "innocent before proven guilty", this isn't always true. For example many people were passing judgment on Casey Anthony long before the trial even started, and even though she wasn't found guilty so much hatred was generated toward her that people were issuing death threats. How's that for absurd? Yes, let's commit a crime because we don't think the person got the "justice" they "deserved". The irony of that reasoning is about as hollow as people willing to murder abortion doctors for performing legal procedures because they're "baby killers". That's not a civilized society, sorry.

Anyway, the whole Rick Perry Death Penalty stuff is because he apparently had the chance to not execute someone when doubts about his crimes came into existence. Instead he canned the group doing the investigation and pushed the execution through anyway. If reasonable doubt existed, and there are those who had evidence backing their doubts, and a man died who could have been innocent, it calls into question his "no regrets" comments.

As far as the "omg debt" stuff, I wish people would can it. Seriously. I'm so goddam tired of the whining about "we're broke and can't afford it", when no one ever bothers to do basic math or even question the system enough to figure out why the debt argument is stupid to begin with.

There's an old business saying: You have to spend money to make money. Businesses aren't spending money, consumers aren't spending money, and yet we're screaming that the government is spending too much. Austerity is the worst possible thing for the economy right now, and if you want the system to stay afloat and recover to what it used to be (for a little while longer), massive stimulus is required. All sectors of the economy need an unprecedented cash dump. Yes, it blows the deficit through the roof (or is it the basement? meh.), and yes, much of it will be wasteful spending that will fuel another bubble (private or public the next economic boom will be a bubble anyway). But that's the price to pay for continuing to support a system that officially died forty years ago and hasn't realized it yet.

There's only two options at this point:

1. Recognize Capitalism as it exists has outlived its usefulness and devise an improvement or replacement for it.

2. Accept the reality that debt isn't going way under this system and just dump money into the economy to create a new expansion bubble until it collapses again as the infinite growth expectations clash once more with the realization that resources are finite.
__________________

Last edited by Solace; 2011-09-09 at 03:26.
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 04:15   Link #483
Ascaloth
I don't give a damn, dude
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Basically, if you like an environment where you have a certain expectation of stability so that you and others can prosper then that requires participation in the process of creating that stability.
Well, yes. That would exactly be why she might inspire justinstrife and friends to make firearms a part of their daily recommended nutritional intake.

Ascaloth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 04:39   Link #484
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
wellllll, she's a 'gun toting progressive' (yes we have a lot of those in the US actually) so no.. .but she might want to know if he cleans them after every use.
Basically, if you like an environment where you have a certain expectation of stability so that you and others can prosper then that requires participation in the process of creating that stability.
Sounds like a tiger-mum type to me.

Quote:
As for Perry, its looking more and more like he's certainly sociopathic and possibly borderline psychopathic -- and I do mean that in a clinical way.
To me, he is a bloody bully with vinegar and brimstone who panders to people with fiery rhetoric and cliches.

Reminds me of an age-old colleague at my workplace whom I ignore. It is a pity loser Asian values keep my other colleagues and me from telling him to shut-the-fuck-up.

EDIT :

Cutting taxes or red tape won’t create jobs

If anyone read the comments section, you'd know US is doomed to have idiots writing stuff like that.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2011-09-09 at 05:45.
SaintessHeart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 06:15   Link #485
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I am very pro-death penalty. I dont know how any sane person cant support the death penalty in at least some circumstances. The idea that you would let a serial killer live out the rest of their natural life on tax payer money, is such a foreign idea to me.
Not sure if I qualify as "sane" in your eyes, but I'll try

One unmentioned reason against the death penalty which won't convince you is the humanist angle. I don't believe in punishment primarily as revenge (which the death penalty clearly emphasizes - it's statistically proven that capital punishment offers no extra deterrent compared to prison sentences), it's supposed to enable a corrective path for reintegration in the society. Yes, there will be cases - especially mental illness ones - where this is clearly impossible, but I'd still prefer a permanent prison solution over an execution here.

The argument which you might find more compelling: Capital punishment is much more expensive compared to prison. Fact. Since obviously it's in the convict's best interest to draw out the execution as much as possible by forcing it through every available instance and form of appeal, in the end, killing him is going to cost MUCH more money than merely locking him away. The only way to change that would be by removing appeal opportunities and streamlining the way to the executioner, and then you get even more "false positives" than you already have: People who were executed even though they turned out to be demonstrably innocent. Which at least to me feels like a horror scenario - Perry didn't seem to sweat these little details at all.

So, if people turn out to be innocent after all, it's at least partially reversible in the prison case, and you can give at least a financial compensation for the lost years. But you can't revert death.

Quote:
Have innocent people been exefuted? I have no doubt it has happened in the past, and I have no doubt it will happen in the future. How many have been executed, we will never truly know. What we can do, is get as much evidence as we can to prove innocence or guilt. It takes years to put someone to death. It is not like they are sentenced to die, then executed that weekend.
I see your point, and I agree that the danger of punishing innocents can not be a reason to scrap justice altogether. But if you stipulate that it will take "years" before you can execute a convict, you automatically also ensure that the cost-damage will be done.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 09:04   Link #486
Xagzan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I respect your stance on the death penalty. What I don't respect is Perry's apparent blind faith in his state's legal system, his lack of willingness to go back, ponder and analyze these critical decisions with anything but complete confidence, and the sheer ego capable of producing such a viewpoint in the first place.

Really, I'm not sure about the death penalty. Certainly some animalistic part of me would like some of the more heinous acts to be met with lethal force. But that's really not even the point. What's so sickening was his utter conviction, his inability to second-guess, to reconsider, and the smug, arrogant expression he presented in saying so. He's talking about people's LIVES here. Someone with so little deference on a matter of such critical importance, on a matter of such all-encompassing finality for the convicted... It's just wrong on some basic level from a moral standpoint, and in my humble opinion somewhat psychotic.
Even more sickening to me was the audience's grand applause at the mere mention of "execution." How much more depraved can a group of people look than by cheering about death? Even if you support the death penalty, recognize that it's a solemn matter, not something to celebrate. Have some restraint, some temperance, otherwise it makes you look like nothing more than a bloodthirsty Roman crowd getting your jollies from watching people torn apart by wild animals in the Colosseum.
Xagzan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 09:33   Link #487
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
Even more sickening to me was the audience's grand applause at the mere mention of "execution." How much more depraved can a group of people look than by cheering about death? Even if you support the death penalty, recognize that it's a solemn matter, not something to celebrate. Have some restraint, some temperance, otherwise it makes you look like nothing more than a bloodthirsty Roman crowd getting your jollies from watching people torn apart by wild animals in the Colosseum.
It IS the Colosseum. Just that the bread hasn't been thrown yet to make a full circusle.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 11:42   Link #488
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post

EDIT :

Cutting taxes or red tape won’t create jobs

If anyone read the comments section, you'd know US is doomed to have idiots writing stuff like that.
The horror is that Marketwatch is NOT a 'liberal rag' - its a news organization that has long had a fiscally RESPONSIBLE outlook. So it is telling the moronic comments that follow that any financial type would roll their eyes at.

yeah.... the commenting idiots haven't been keeping with the present. The fact is, corporations in general are sitting on HUGE sums of cash and not hiring. They don't need to hire and when they do, they hire offshore. The oil/gas industry in particular has made more *profits* (not gross, *profits*) than any entity in human history - and it has mostly rolled to the top .05% of the population (at the expense of the employees underneath largely).

Meanwhile, small and medium business is getting crushed by the very things that large corporations are thriving on. They're not getting the tax breaks that the big corps are, they're not getting the benefits solutions the big corp. have... the rank-and-file GOP voters sort of understand something is going terribly wrong but they are misfiring in all the wrong directions (hijacked Tea Party,etc) thanks to some very serious misinformation being blanketed by such lovely people as the Koch Brothers and Murdoch. In addition, there's the "theological" tangent thinking it'd all be fixed if we "went back to being a Christian nation" (yes, that's very historically skewed). As many will note, some of the worst offenders that have put us where we are claim to be "good Christians" (the ones Jesus would slap the shit out of based on his biblical comments).

The people driving this circus aren't just happy having the shiniest car in the village... they send thugs around to dent and bash everyone else's car. They don't believe a middle class is necessary other than as sops to misdirect into fearing the poor rather than the rich. There's some metaphor that goes like --
There are twelve cookies. Enter a plutocrat, a middle-class, a working poor. The plutocrat takes 11 cookies and then tells the middle-class "Watch out, that working poor might take your cookie."
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 13:30   Link #489
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
You think they'd wake up one day and realize that their existence is to provide decent goods and services for people to HELP people. What the fuck do you do once you have all the money and power? How can you not help your fellow man? It's monarchy 2.0.
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 14:39   Link #490
Kyuu
=^^=
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42 10' N (Latitude) 87 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 35
Imagine if Perry ever gets a chance to bring Texan educational policy to the White House:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ell-50th-unde/
Kyuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 17:50   Link #491
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
You think they'd wake up one day and realize that their existence is to provide decent goods and services for people to HELP people. What the fuck do you do once you have all the money and power? How can you not help your fellow man? It's monarchy 2.0.
I do remember being told about that in the older days, the Tea Drinkers (British) would have the aristocrats help the poor, as it is "God's will to bless the rich with greater wealth as they part with some to aid the have-nots". And it is still a monarchy back then (minus the British East India Company and their colonial oppression - that is the first instance of modern plutocracy).

But in the US, isn't any evangelist using this to shoot back at the fundamentalists who thought that going back to being a Christian nation would change anything?
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 18:23   Link #492
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I do remember being told about that in the older days, the Tea Drinkers (British) would have the aristocrats help the poor, as it is "God's will to bless the rich with greater wealth as they part with some to aid the have-nots". And it is still a monarchy back then (minus the British East India Company and their colonial oppression - that is the first instance of modern plutocracy).

But in the US, isn't any evangelist using this to shoot back at the fundamentalists who thought that going back to being a Christian nation would change anything?
Well... at that point the british monarchy didn't have that much power. Already power was pretty firmly held by the House of Commons, which was elected by the rich property owners (universal male suffrage in Britain would come later...).

Don't forget, Britain was the country that spawned the Luddites, the one of the first violent socialist movements. Britain had a lot of riots throughout the 19th century, largely due to wealth disparities, and also the Irish question.
DonQuigleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 19:04   Link #493
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I do remember being told about that in the older days, the Tea Drinkers (British) would have the aristocrats help the poor, as it is "God's will to bless the rich with greater wealth as they part with some to aid the have-nots". And it is still a monarchy back then (minus the British East India Company and their colonial oppression - that is the first instance of modern plutocracy).

But in the US, isn't any evangelist using this to shoot back at the fundamentalists who thought that going back to being a Christian nation would change anything?
you don't have to go back that far

old time famous rich guys like Carnegie, Rockefeller and Morgan. All took pride in giving back to the community. The earn a pile of money then went out and donate a lot of that money to charities. Other like Henry Ford paid his employee above market wages instead squeezing them for every penny. Shareholder back then was willing to just a take good profit not needing to squeeze blood form rocks.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 19:30   Link #494
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
@xellos: business owners back then were not as great as you might think. Don't forget that in the 19th century people worked 12 or 14 hour days routinelt, workplace accidents were rife due to no safety standards, and child labour was widespread.

This was also the era where business owners responded to the demands of trade unions by attacking them with hired thugs.

Carnegie and Rockefeller were like Warren Buffet today, nice guys, but in a distinct minority.
DonQuigleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 20:11   Link #495
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I do remember being told about that in the older days, the Tea Drinkers (British) would have the aristocrats help the poor, as it is "God's will to bless the rich with greater wealth as they part with some to aid the have-nots". And it is still a monarchy back then (minus the British East India Company and their colonial oppression - that is the first instance of modern plutocracy).

But in the US, isn't any evangelist using this to shoot back at the fundamentalists who thought that going back to being a Christian nation would change anything?
I won't be surprised if our future is very much like in the new game Deus Ex Human Revolution. Corporations had their hands in everything, because they could.
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 20:17   Link #496
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
you don't have to go back that far

old time famous rich guys like Carnegie, Rockefeller and Morgan. All took pride in giving back to the community. The earn a pile of money then went out and donate a lot of that money to charities. Other like Henry Ford paid his employee above market wages instead squeezing them for every penny. Shareholder back then was willing to just a take good profit not needing to squeeze blood form rocks.
It wasn't as rosy as it sounds though. Philanthropy in the Gilded Age was largely "investments" in schools, libraries, and other "intellectual" pursuits. Considering public education didn't even exist until after the Depression (meaning much of the labor pool could barely read/write), most philanthropy was self serving and rarely beneficial to society as a whole. Even Henry Ford paying his employees a higher wage wasn't merely an act of altruism, he simply wanted them to be able to afford his product. There's no point in offering a product if your target market can't even afford it, and if you can make a mass produced product available to the general public this also opens you up to more consumers and hence more profit/market share. In video game terms this is like the magical price point where a console is considered affordable by the "mainstream" or "mass market" audience. A PS3 at 400 dollars is not mainstream. A Wii for 200 is.

More than anything else, Ford was an excellent businessman. Well, Edsel aside.
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 20:28   Link #497
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
It wasn't as rosy as it sounds though. Philanthropy in the Gilded Age was largely "investments" in schools, libraries, and other "intellectual" pursuits. Considering public education didn't even exist until after the Depression (meaning much of the labor pool could barely read/write), most philanthropy was self serving and rarely beneficial to society as a whole. Even Henry Ford paying his employees a higher wage wasn't merely an act of altruism, he simply wanted them to be able to afford his product. There's no point in offering a product if your target market can't even afford it, and if you can make a mass produced product available to the general public this also opens you up to more consumers and hence more profit/market share. In video game terms this is like the magical price point where a console is considered affordable by the "mainstream" or "mass market" audience. A PS3 at 400 dollars is not mainstream. A Wii for 200 is.

More than anything else, Ford was an excellent businessman. Well, Edsel aside.
of course Ford wasn't doing it all out of the goodness of his heart but the little fact you have pay your employees a good wage so they can afford to buy your product seem to have escape the notice the current crop of MBA certified ceos and managers.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-09, 22:28   Link #498
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
The reason California has had rolling blackouts, and now today's problem, is because the environmentalists will not allow us to build more power plants. We rely heavily on electricity from neighboring states. Today for ezample, a power line connecting Arizona to Southern California faild(or was cut depending on who you talk to). That caused an increased stress on our system here, whixh triggered a power outtage. San onofre nuclear power plant shut down in response to the overloaded grid, and now millions are without power.

Until the Democrats sweat it out with no AC for a few days in 100 degree weather, they will not understand just how screwed California's energy situation really is...
The reason California had rolling blackouts is because PG&E was exporting power to other states for profit. Not because of government regulation, but because they were selling something they didn't actually possess. Very similar to the Comcast/Sandvine throttling mess.

Don't even try to protect PG&E right now, and don't fucking lie about shit you have no goddamned clue about. If it weren't for their greed and negligence, San Bruno wouldn't have exploded like a fucking bomb. I know people who lived there, got their houses ruined by the blast. The very last thing California needs is reduced checks and balances on fucking PG&E.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-10, 01:30   Link #499
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
I've seen a very interesting report about the partially catastrophic situation of the American power grid. Due to insufficient regulation in a market that is plagued by de-facto regional monopolies, the power companies consciously forego necessary infrastructure investments to boost their bottom lines. For them, it's more profitable to simply continue to operate sometimes decades-old installations and accept occasional outages than investing in better networks and creating redundancies.

Another very instructive example of how insufficient regulation _hurts_ the average citizen.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-10, 03:45   Link #500
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I've seen a very interesting report about the partially catastrophic situation of the American power grid. Due to insufficient regulation in a market that is plagued by de-facto regional monopolies, the power companies consciously forego necessary infrastructure investments to boost their bottom lines. For them, it's more profitable to simply continue to operate sometimes decades-old installations and accept occasional outages than investing in better networks and creating redundancies.

Another very instructive example of how insufficient regulation _hurts_ the average citizen.
And, y'know, the whole bit about San Bruno exploding in a gigantic fireball due to old and badly-maintained gas lines.

Just sayin'.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
2012 elections, us elections

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.