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Old 2011-10-10, 12:50   Link #821
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
What the author of that article doesn't get is that these type of movements are designed to be leaderless, whether it is Occupy Wall street, Occupy freedom plaza, or The Zeitgeist Movement, they share the idea that educated people cannot be controlled. Granting leadership status to an individual will only be counter productive because the collective voice is suppressed and replaced by the voice of an individual who thinks his voice is more valuable than the rest.

In other words, you can become a guide, a coordinator, a moderator but not a leader, because when you become a leader your ego grows out of proportion and ends up being unable to listen to others other than yourself.

Of course, this is a very foreign concept to media people and it will be very hard for them to understand that movements like this work under a different paradigm. I just hope big money and special interests are not able to corrupt them.
if these protest doesn't translate at the poll then they are absolutely useless.
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Old 2011-10-10, 13:06   Link #822
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
if these protest doesn't translate at the poll then they are absolutely useless.
The political system is just as bad as Wall street itself. It is rigged in favor of the super rich and in order to become "an electable" candidate YOU MUST abide by your oligarchs overlords or they will use any and all methods possible, including the media, to shut you down. If you are elected, you are already in their pocket, and you better do as they say, or you'll go down in flames. This is one of the very reasons why Obama is getting burned, he was elected based on very logical steeps to address the crisis, but this steps don't agree with those at the top.

This is one of the main reasons why I lost so much respect for Run Paul, whom I thought for many years was one of the only respectable politicians left in the country. He knows quite well that his ideology won't agree with the overlords, so all of the sudden, this year, he thought to himself that he has grown old and weary of running and losing for so many years, so now he is trying hard to change his tune to fit the profile.

Yes, most likely the movement won't translate into the polls due to reasons mentioned above, but that wouldn't deem it unsuccessful if it can influence the approach of Americans towards the system as a whole.
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Old 2011-10-10, 13:29   Link #823
Xagzan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
What the author of that article doesn't get is that these type of movements are designed to be leaderless, whether it is Occupy Wall street, Occupy freedom plaza, or The Zeitgeist Movement, they share the idea that educated people cannot be controlled. Granting leadership status to an individual will only be counter productive because the collective voice is suppressed and replaced by the voice of an individual who thinks his voice is more valuable than the rest.

In other words, you can become a guide, a coordinator, a moderator but not a leader, because when you become a leader your ego grows out of proportion and ends up being unable to listen to others other than yourself.

Of course, this is a very foreign concept to media people and it will be very hard for them to understand that movements like this work under a different paradigm. I just hope big money and special interests are not able to corrupt them.
The fact that the OWLS don't even appear to have a single, unified message or set of messages, as everyone in the media keeps pointing out, is perhaps the best proof of how grassroots this thing really is.
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Old 2011-10-10, 14:39   Link #824
kaizerknight01
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This is an observation/opinion form a non- american USA financial woes can't be solved by the government and taxing big corporations for it has been systemic like a open wound that has festered for so long and the ..... the so called "credit card culture" that lasted for two or more generation is part of the problem plus add the " Spend most and save a little" is not helping the situation.

In the part of the world that i am in ...... government service/heath care are at best minimal (is a real pain and don't get a danm if you live or die on the ER) people here then to save more of their income not because they want to it became they need to .... people here set their priorities , the difference of knowing you need like food,water, other necessity and what you want eg: latest, clothes, gizmo and games knowing the importance is difference for financial success or ruin

But still I very optimistic as democracy's most famous icon you guys can weather the storm ...

just my opinion
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Old 2011-10-10, 15:11   Link #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
if these protest doesn't translate at the poll then they are absolutely useless.
The point is to force some of the politicians to cater to them, so that they have somebody to actually vote for. If there was someone they wanted to win elections in they wouldn't need to protest.

Quote:
What the author of that article doesn't get is that these type of movements are designed to be leaderless, whether it is Occupy Wall street, Occupy freedom plaza, or The Zeitgeist Movement, they share the idea that educated people cannot be controlled. Granting leadership status to an individual will only be counter productive because the collective voice is suppressed and replaced by the voice of an individual who thinks his voice is more valuable than the rest.
Good point. They don't speak in one voice because they each have their own voices. Democracy isn't about everyone doing the same thing as what others tell them, but each making up their own minds.
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Old 2011-10-10, 15:12   Link #826
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizerknight01 View Post
This is an observation/opinion form a non- american USA financial woes can't be solved by the government and taxing big corporations for it has been systemic like a open wound that has festered for so long and the ..... the so called "credit card culture" that lasted for two or more generation is part of the problem plus add the " Spend most and save a little" is not helping the situation.

In the part of the world that i am in ...... government service/heath care are at best minimal (is a real pain and don't get a danm if you live or die on the ER) people here then to save more of their income not because they want to it became they need to .... people here set their priorities , the difference of knowing you need like food,water, other necessity and what you want eg: latest, clothes, gizmo and games knowing the importance is difference for financial success or ruin
Logically speaking, while living frugally may be a nice idea on the micro level, if everyone did that, 90% of us would be jobless. You just don't need that many people to make food and pump water.
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Old 2011-10-10, 15:57   Link #827
kaizerknight01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Logically speaking, while living frugally may be a nice idea on the micro level, if everyone did that, 90% of us would be jobless. You just don't need that many people to make food and pump water.

I beg to differ, not only just living frugally, it living more efficiently, if majority of Americans followed the 80 20 rule (80% spent on yourself 20% save/don't touch) on their salary in my humble opinion they could have gone a long way

on a side note theoretically speaking if everyone did that everyone will be employed running there own small enterprise for they they have the know how and funds to make their own food and to pump/collect their own (rain)water
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Old 2011-10-10, 16:22   Link #828
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The point is to force some of the politicians to cater to them, so that they have somebody to actually vote for. If there was someone they wanted to win elections in they wouldn't need to protest.
That is pointless, the politicians already have people voting for them. Take a page from the Tea party, don't wait for the politico to come to them. Take the movement to the politicos. When a couple of senators/congress in safe seats loses in the primary then you are going to have politicians cater to them but not before.
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Old 2011-10-10, 19:57   Link #829
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
That is pointless, the politicians already have people voting for them. Take a page from the Tea party, don't wait for the politico to come to them. Take the movement to the politicos. When a couple of senators/congress in safe seats loses in the primary then you are going to have politicians cater to them but not before.
Lose to who? The Republicans love Wall Street more than Democrats. They aren't going to vote for the enemy.

They want Democrats to act like Democrats, the same way Tea Party want Republicans to act like Republicans. They want to change their own politician's minds, not to switch to those entirely hostile to OW.
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Old 2011-10-10, 22:43   Link #830
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizerknight01 View Post
I beg to differ, not only just living frugally, it living more efficiently, if majority of Americans followed the 80 20 rule (80% spent on yourself 20% save/don't touch) on their salary in my humble opinion they could have gone a long way

on a side note theoretically speaking if everyone did that everyone will be employed running there own small enterprise for they they have the know how and funds to make their own food and to pump/collect their own (rain)water
... Your ideal is going back to hunter-gather society?
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Old 2011-10-11, 01:23   Link #831
kaizerknight01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
... Your ideal is going back to hunter-gather society?

Nope nothing like that's chaotic a dog eat dog world, what i am hoping for is a society that more responsible and resilient to financial woes ..... that slowly and surely they can change the culture of spend all and saving none .....


sorry my bad getting off topic
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Old 2011-10-11, 04:08   Link #832
DonQuigleone
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I think the key is not spending money you don't have. It's unsustainable and creates bubbles. Thinking that consumer spending through debt is a vital part of the economy is bubble thinking, because that debt has to be payed sometime, somewhere.

I met two students who planned to take out a loan to go out on holiday! Talk about idiocy...

If you don't have it, don't spend it!
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Old 2011-10-11, 05:34   Link #833
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the key is not spending money you don't have. It's unsustainable and creates bubbles. Thinking that consumer spending through debt is a vital part of the economy is bubble thinking, because that debt has to be payed sometime, somewhere.

I met two students who planned to take out a loan to go out on holiday! Talk about idiocy...

If you don't have it, don't spend it!
Then it would mean that if you don't have money, don't go to school?

The idea of loaning is that it should be for important stuff, like sustaining agriculture, building social infrastructure (hospitals, roads, etc), and buying homes (HOMES, not HOUSES).

Lending rules have to be put in place. Not all the time should it be used to buy something people WANT instead of what people NEED.

Food for thought :

5 myths of Occupy Wall Street
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-10-11, 06:56   Link #834
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Then it would mean that if you don't have money, don't go to school?

The idea of loaning is that it should be for important stuff, like sustaining agriculture, building social infrastructure (hospitals, roads, etc), and buying homes (HOMES, not HOUSES).

Lending rules have to be put in place. Not all the time should it be used to buy something people WANT instead of what people NEED.

Food for thought :

5 myths of Occupy Wall Street
I said consumer spending, not spending in general, loans should be reserved for investments (EG your education) or large purchases that cannot be easily bought all at once (like a house).

So I would also support the idea of taking out a loan to gain capital for starting a business. I wouldn't support taking out a loan for a new car, or for your latest holiday. For the former, buy second hand! For the latter, well, there are plenty of entertaining things to do at home if you pay attention...
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Old 2011-10-11, 07:48   Link #835
kaizerknight01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the key is not spending money you don't have. It's unsustainable and creates bubbles. Thinking that consumer spending through debt is a vital part of the economy is bubble thinking, because that debt has to be payed sometime, somewhere.

I met two students who planned to take out a loan to go out on holiday! Talk about idiocy...

If you don't have it, don't spend it!
face palm ............. loans should be used more sparing, use it for emergency situations IMHO ...
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Old 2011-10-11, 08:38   Link #836
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I said consumer spending, not spending in general, loans should be reserved for investments (EG your education) or large purchases that cannot be easily bought all at once (like a house).

So I would also support the idea of taking out a loan to gain capital for starting a business. I wouldn't support taking out a loan for a new car, or for your latest holiday. For the former, buy second hand! For the latter, well, there are plenty of entertaining things to do at home if you pay attention...
I can agree with that, but only abit and not wholly.

The real problem with the money system is that the money creation process is screwed up by the banks looking to expand their capital deposits. They need to lend in order to have a larger capital to lend out in the future, and that amount of money in their vault ties directly to the liquidity of the domestic money supply.

Instead of approaching the government or have proper advertising encouraging people to take loans, they add all sorts of teeny-weeny bits to the loan contracts so as to inflate the amount of money they get back. The ARM is a good example of such; to float against something so arbitrary and unpredictable simply spell trouble for both parties.

Wall Street ran out of ideas of making money within the legal and ethical scope.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-10-11, 10:13   Link #837
Key Board
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
What the author of that article doesn't get is that these type of movements are designed to be leaderless, whether it is Occupy Wall street, Occupy freedom plaza, or The Zeitgeist Movement, they share the idea that educated people cannot be controlled. Granting leadership status to an individual will only be counter productive because the collective voice is suppressed and replaced by the voice of an individual who thinks his voice is more valuable than the rest.

In other words, you can become a guide, a coordinator, a moderator but not a leader, because when you become a leader your ego grows out of proportion and ends up being unable to listen to others other than yourself.

Of course, this is a very foreign concept to media people and it will be very hard for them to understand that movements like this work under a different paradigm. I just hope big money and special interests are not able to corrupt them.
Too many chefs spoil the broth

if everyone is the chef, you lack a clear goal

Focus and direction is still needed. That in turn means there is still need for an individual or a group of individuals to steer the direction of the work. This means that hierarchy and leadership is still needed.

The intent of these kind of groups seem vague to the media because they are. And that's because these groups can only unite under a common goal that is on a vague level

It's when they actually sit down and start to talk about possible solutions where the unity breaks. It is very easy to get many people agree that a system is not right. Start talking about the possible solutions is when you realize how differentiated the ideas are, and incidentally, this is also when you that realize that you can not take every idea and opinion at equal value.

Zeitgeist/Project Venus that you mentioned is a primary example. Seeing that you seen to follow this, you must know by now that their proposed solution is just one of the many of such similar movements, and one that has just as many opponents. Even within the movement itself there are already concerns that this solution will just rearrange the hierarchy so that scientist are at the top.

It just creates a new person to blame when things go sour again
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Old 2011-10-11, 10:56   Link #838
GundamFan0083
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Here's an article that provides food for thought.

The 1960s radicalism of Occupy Wall Street will help elect a Republican in 2012


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...lican-in-2012/
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Old 2011-10-11, 11:18   Link #839
Key Board
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Here's an article that provides food for thought.

The 1960s radicalism of Occupy Wall Street will help elect a Republican in 2012


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...lican-in-2012/
So how close are we to someone burning down shops and this regressing into a riot?

because it seems that would be easy to do, if one were willing to incite things

remember Woodstock 99
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Old 2011-10-11, 11:51   Link #840
cors8
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
So how close are we to someone burning down shops and this regressing into a riot?

because it seems that would be easy to do, if one were willing to incite things

remember Woodstock 99
Inciting a riot has already been tried apparently:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/...180750896.html
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