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Old 2011-10-21, 12:24   Link #961
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
It'll be good to have the boys (and girls) home, now we have to figure out how to take care of them.
Its not necessarily home (as in USA) for all of them. Many of them will come back to their bases in Germany.
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Old 2011-10-21, 13:23   Link #962
Vexx
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Originally Posted by solomon View Post
It'll be good to have the boys (and girls) home, now we have to figure out how to take care of them.
No jobs for them with almost 20% unemployment (when you count the real numbers rather than exclude those who fall out of the selective radar sweep) ..... currently that is the "running gag" of the industrial ultra-wealthy: ship out the jobs to the third world, leave the lower classes no choice but the military, send them overseas to fight for corporate interests (e.g. Vietnam was more about protecting corporate mineral extraction than ideology, Iraq less competently about oil access).
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Old 2011-10-21, 15:06   Link #963
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
No jobs for them with almost 20% unemployment (when you count the real numbers rather than exclude those who fall out of the selective radar sweep) ..... currently that is the "running gag" of the industrial ultra-wealthy: ship out the jobs to the third world, leave the lower classes no choice but the military, send them overseas to fight for corporate interests (e.g. Vietnam was more about protecting corporate mineral extraction than ideology, Iraq less competently about oil access).
Hell, some of us lower-class can't even enter the military to get money.
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Old 2011-10-21, 15:21   Link #964
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
No jobs for them with almost 20% unemployment (when you count the real numbers rather than exclude those who fall out of the selective radar sweep) ..... currently that is the "running gag" of the industrial ultra-wealthy: ship out the jobs to the third world, leave the lower classes no choice but the military, send them overseas to fight for corporate interests (e.g. Vietnam was more about protecting corporate mineral extraction than ideology, Iraq less competently about oil access).
Well you know how it is, raising taxes will hurt these people and buisness owners who will hire them, so that's a non starter.
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Old 2011-10-21, 17:00   Link #965
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
It'll be good to have the boys (and girls) home, now we have to figure out how to take care of them.
Hopefully some of the money saved by not being over there, would be used for that purpose.
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Old 2011-10-21, 17:06   Link #966
Ithekro
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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The GI Bill still in effect?
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Old 2011-10-22, 11:19   Link #967
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama has decided to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of the year, a White House official said on Friday, after failing to reach a deal with the Iraqi government that would have left a significant force of military trainers in the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/...a.html?_r=1&hp

only took him 3 yrs to get it done but he finally did it.
The question is, how many "private security contractors" will we have over there, still?
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Old 2011-10-22, 11:21   Link #968
Xellos-_^
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The question is, how many "private security contractors" will we have over there, still?
somewhere between one and ten thousand.
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Old 2011-10-22, 12:11   Link #969
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Hollowgolem View Post
The question is, how many "private security contractors" will we have over there, still?
Since US troops are losing their legal immunity, I don't see Mercs being able to keep theirs. USA certainly can't protect them any more if official US troops are vulnerable.

And if you don't have legal immunity, it is almost too dangerous to stay anyway. After all, you shoot people for a living, and laws are harsh there.
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Old 2011-10-23, 15:18   Link #970
solomon
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Great Post column on the Great American Debate? Provides decent little historical nutshell.

Which is more evil? White House or Wall Street

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...y.html?hpid=z3

I still say Wall Street is to be feared more than our own government because we own our own government in a democracy. We don't own Wall Street the same way (if at all anymore).

What's more while taxes and public expenditures cannot be set at hard and fast figure, out and out denigration of it is frankly silly. No one else in the developed world does this and we have some of the lower taxes comparatively.

Consumerism and Free Market principles are fine on their own, they helped build this country but left unchecked they can harm just as much as they help. What's more applying it to every facet of life,(education, infrastructure, healthcare) especially in some dogmatic principle IS NOT the answer.
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Old 2011-10-23, 15:50   Link #971
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Great Post column on the Great American Debate? Provides decent little historical nutshell.

Which is more evil? White House or Wall Street

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...y.html?hpid=z3

I still say Wall Street is to be feared more than our own government because we own our own government in a democracy. We don't own Wall Street the same way (if at all anymore).

What's more while taxes and public expenditures cannot be set at hard and fast figure, out and out denigration of it is frankly silly. No one else in the developed world does this and we have some of the lower taxes comparatively.

Consumerism and Free Market principles are fine on their own, they helped build this country but left unchecked they can harm just as much as they help. What's more applying it to every facet of life,(education, infrastructure, healthcare) especially in some dogmatic principle IS NOT the answer.
A "free market" is only possible in a WELL-REGULATED environment. People who use the term to denote an UNREGULATED environment are either being disingenuous or stupid. And I'll never grok someone who thinks a corporation is more accountable to the public than an *elected* government that isn't corrupted by those corporations - because history says they're wrong over and over and over again.
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Old 2011-10-23, 16:02   Link #972
ganbaru
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NJ candidate's 'whore-in-bedroom' advice panned
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-21-14-06-13
That guy is ,what, a generation late or more ?
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Old 2011-10-23, 17:07   Link #973
Sackett
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
A "free market" is only possible in a WELL-REGULATED environment. People who use the term to denote an UNREGULATED environment are either being disingenuous or stupid. And I'll never grok someone who thinks a corporation is more accountable to the public than an *elected* government that isn't corrupted by those corporations - because history says they're wrong over and over and over again.
Okay, I'll bite.

Corporations got money.

Governments have guns.

Which would you prefer to fight?

I've had plenty of tussles with both big businesses, and with governments.

My score against big business is 2 wins, 3 draws, and 1 loss.

My score against government? 0 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses.

Why? Because with big business all you have to do is make it not worth it to them to fight you. And by that I mean dollar signs.

Against government I have consistently found them to be utterly non-responsive. It's not so much that they're corrupt as much as that they just don't care about individuals that don't fit into their predefined slots.

In short, businesses are more flexible, and willing to make special arrangements if you fight hard enough. Governments say: "Sorry, not our problem." And tend to get vindictive if you argue.

The only time I managed better than a pure loss against government was when I managed to make really bad publicity for the building inspector (lots of evidence he was incompetent) and got him fired. Still was a loss for me though, so it was a lose/lose scenario which I'm counting as a draw.

So I'm no fan of big business, but I much prefer them as an opponent compared to fighting city hall.
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Old 2011-10-23, 18:30   Link #974
Vexx
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Railroad barons, 1850s, 1890s - guns, slaughter
Mining companies, 1930s -- guns, slaughter
oil/mineral companies in international locales -- guns, slaughter
Modern corporate security, armies, "contractors" -- guns, slaughter
In few cases were or have they been held accountable

I could go on but -
You're thinking the corporations will play nice when historically they haven't. They're the bad side of feudalism without a connection to the land.

There is literally no brakes at all on them without some accountability to some form of city-state.
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Old 2011-10-23, 18:39   Link #975
Ithekro
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Politicians you can vote out of office.
Beauracrats on the other hand.....
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Old 2011-10-23, 18:50   Link #976
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Railroad barons, 1850s, 1890s - guns, slaughter
Mining companies, 1930s -- guns, slaughter
oil/mineral companies in international locales -- guns, slaughter
Modern corporate security, armies, "contractors" -- guns, slaughter
In few cases were or have they been held accountable

I could go on but -
You're thinking the corporations will play nice when historically they haven't. They're the bad side of feudalism without a connection to the land.

There is literally no brakes at all on them without some accountability to some form of city-state.
World of Armor Cored here we come.
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Old 2011-10-23, 18:51   Link #977
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Politicians you can vote out of office.
Beauracrats on the other hand.....
Japan is a good example of that.. the civil service is relatively unaccountable and holds power over the elected politicians (mostly by inertia). On the other hand, the historical behavior of corporations in "company towns" shows just how bad it can get without effective check and balance by public oversight.
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Old 2011-10-23, 19:29   Link #978
NameGoesHere
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
A "free market" is only possible in a WELL-REGULATED environment. People who use the term to denote an UNREGULATED environment are either being disingenuous or stupid. And I'll never grok someone who thinks a corporation is more accountable to the public than an *elected* government that isn't corrupted by those corporations - because history says they're wrong over and over and over again.
Anybody who advocates free-market by total deregulation is on crack. Preventing fraud or collusion is pretty much the entire point.

Most people are pretty schizo about what they actually support. Subsidization of a company - which often give them a vice grip on the economy - is not free-market. That includes things like, massive amounts of gov. contracts, tax breaks, disincentive subsidies, and fed. resources on the cheap (railroad/mining/etc monopolies had a field day thanks to this). All of these get labeled as "pro-business", and sometimes even "free-market". It's extremely misleading.

Also definitely not free-market: bailing out failing banks.

I like the concept of a free-market. I know it, like pretty much everything else, cannot work perfectly in reality. I feel like the definition of many things has become really tortured thanks to the political game, though. Dems have to take one side, and Repubs the other, so whatever they preach must fit the mold. "Good for business" legislation that is crammed down the public's throat is almost never free-market. It's only good for the businesses that lobbied for the legislation in order to force out competition by collusion.

Regulation that gets written: good for the big guys.
"Deregulation" that gets written: also good for the big guys.

And that is the vampire squid sucking sound you hear.

Giant octopus gov-corp complex - not an actual free-market entity, and not something that can be beaten thru the rule of law.
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Old 2011-10-24, 00:18   Link #979
Vexx
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"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson to the Secretary of the Treasury, 1802

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson (he had examples like the East India Trading Company which brought down governments and used drug-running to achieve strategic goals).
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Old 2011-10-24, 00:22   Link #980
Reckoner
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Clearly that's all hog wash. Must be why the Texas school board tried to eliminate Jefferson from their curriculum of US history in their schools right?
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