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Old 2011-08-13, 03:53   Link #81
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
That is, assuming, the democracy at large is in it's ideal functioning state. I think it's clear to everyone here that it isn't. A person's vote only works if the suffrage of democracy itself works.
If it is true then it is time to burn the Whitehouse down.


But since that hasn't happened yet, I would have to make the claim that it is NOT that bad, and that it's all just excuses.

To say there is no democracy, when one million people deliberately avoided doing the one thing a democratic citizen needs to do, is bizarre.

It might be clear to you, but it is not clear to me. Fifty percent of the eligible population vote. This means a little more than 25% of the country gets to "win" in their party selection. And this is all because 100million votes are not counted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You really want me to vote that badly? Pay me, then. I'd rather sell my useless vote for $200 than pick between Corporate Shill A, Corporate Shill B or Corporate Shill C. At least I'll get something out of that deal which actually affects my life in a positive way.
People would pay you, except for that damn little thing called voter anonymity. I am sure if you could show proof of who you voted for in some fashion, you can arrange for some form of payout.

Sorry to hear that your life sucked, I am not going to pretend to know what you feel every day. However, there is one million people just like you who think their vote doesn't matter, and that just doesn't add up to me.

One million people can physically destroy America all by themselves with just their bare hands if they feel inclinded. That kind of number is not minor.
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Old 2011-08-13, 04:06   Link #82
synaesthetic
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You're not understanding. The game is rigged. The politicians are all corrupt before we even have a chance to vote on them!

Would you keep putting quarters in a rigged slot machine? Knowing full well that it will never land on the jackpot?

You do realize that is one of the definitions of insanity, right? Repeating the same action over and over yet expecting a different result each time.
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Old 2011-08-13, 04:16   Link #83
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You're not understanding. The game is rigged. The politicians are all corrupt before we even have a chance to vote on them!

Would you keep putting quarters in a rigged slot machine? Knowing full well that it will never land on the jackpot?

You do realize that is one of the definitions of insanity, right? Repeating the same action over and over yet expecting a different result each time.
There is a difference between a rigged vote and a non-existent vote,

I fail to see the need to rig votes when half the population is missing, A politician just needs to please 25% of the population to win, that needs no rigging at all.

And as I say, I doubt you really believe your potential vote is rigged. Because if you really believe that the 100million of you would have taken up arms and murdered Congress.

I have seen dysfunctional corrupt governments. I have also seen the politicians concerned being voted out of office and then literally attacked by mobs, and then followed by their conviction and imprisonment for corruption. All from a nation with 90%+ voluntary voter turnout. The fact that politicians sucked is no excuse for not voting.
In short, you don't need perfect ideal politicians in order to vote. My birthplace kicked a corrupt party out and replaced it with a new one. The new party ended up being corrupt too so the population voted them out and replace with new people AGAIN. They would keep trying until they get someone that worked. At no stage did they think their votes didn't count. After all, with 90% turnout every vote mattered. You can't count on your opposition being lazy.
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Old 2011-08-13, 05:08   Link #84
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Congratulations. Voting is an fundamental importance to everything in society (whether you are an American or not).
It USED to be a civil/personal RIGHT. Now it is a bloody LIABILITY. *sarcastic*
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Old 2011-08-13, 05:11   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is a difference between a rigged vote and a non-existent vote,

I fail to see the need to rig votes when half the population is missing, A politician just needs to please 25% of the population to win, that needs no rigging at all.

And as I say, I doubt you really believe your potential vote is rigged. Because if you really believe that the 100million of you would have taken up arms and murdered Congress.

I have seen dysfunctional corrupt governments. I have also seen the politicians concerned being voted out of office and then literally attacked by mobs, and then followed by their conviction and imprisonment for corruption. All from a nation with 90%+ voluntary voter turnout. The fact that politicians sucked is no excuse for not voting.
In short, you don't need perfect ideal politicians in order to vote. My birthplace kicked a corrupt party out and replaced it with a new one. The new party ended up being corrupt too so the population voted them out and replace with new people AGAIN. They would keep trying until they get someone that worked. At no stage did they think their votes didn't count. After all, with 90% turnout every vote mattered. You can't count on your opposition being lazy.
Your capacity and to keep changing the people in government really depends on whether your viewpoint comes from the bottom, the middle or the top. It's easier to keep yourself in the political machine of the public sphere when you aren't trying to find your next meal on a daily basis. I'm sure you know that most people who can be active in this sphere are either those who have enough in their bank accounts to keep themselves protesting in the streets, or are fed on pure rage rather than food they can't afford.

I think you need to understand and consider the disillusionment of a great quantity of people who can't even deal with their own lives on a razor's edge much less deal with politics. Sometimes it's not a matter of logic but of emotion, and trust me when I say that for a lot of people, emotions are easier to fuel yourself with than logic when shit hits the fan.

Until the day you make the general populace feel like they matter to the way the country works, the time you can remove their apathy and put food in their stomachs, don't expect people to just sit down and think over the the way the government works.
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Old 2011-08-13, 06:28   Link #86
DonQuigleone
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Eh, if you're unemployed, the one thing you have is time (certainly enough time to post on forums on the internet...).

If you feel your system is corrupt, stop complaining and do something about it! Didn't you see the Arab Spring? Egyptians faced down TANKS, you think you can't face down a whole load of corporate advertising? And if anything, those same Egyptians were faaar worse off then any of you!

You have to understand that Politicians are AFRAID of all of us. They know that they can lose their jobs on our whims. That's why they resort to all those stupid tactics. If you're really so dissatisfied, and want to put out a protest vote, vote for a 3rd party! 3rd party candidates have won before! Get your similiarly dissaffected friends to vote for the same 3rd party candidate! And get their friends to do it too! Now maybe doing so in the presidential election is pointless, but there's congress, Senate, and state elections where your vote WILL make a difference. If one district manages to elect a 3rd party representative, then that will show people all across the US that they can do it too!

It just takes some guts and ACTION. Voting in the election won't take you more then 5 minutes. If you really want to get involved and campaign, then that you can do as much or as little as you like.

Every year political status quos get overthrown, it just takes a bit of can do spirit! And isn't that what America is all about?
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Old 2011-08-13, 06:41   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Eh, if you're unemployed, the one thing you have is time (certainly enough time to post on forums on the internet...).

If you feel your system is corrupt, stop complaining and do something about it! Didn't you see the Arab Spring? Egyptians faced down TANKS, you think you can't face down a whole load of corporate advertising? And if anything, those same Egyptians were faaar worse off then any of you!

You have to understand that Politicians are AFRAID of all of us. They know that they can lose their jobs on our whims. That's why they resort to all those stupid tactics. If you're really so dissatisfied, and want to put out a protest vote, vote for a 3rd party! 3rd party candidates have won before! Get your similiarly dissaffected friends to vote for the same 3rd party candidate! And get their friends to do it too! Now maybe doing so in the presidential election is pointless, but there's congress, Senate, and state elections where your vote WILL make a difference. If one district manages to elect a 3rd party representative, then that will show people all across the US that they can do it too!

It just takes some guts and ACTION. Voting in the election won't take you more then 5 minutes. If you really want to get involved and campaign, then that you can do as much or as little as you like.

Every year political status quos get overthrown, it just takes a bit of can do spirit! And isn't that what America is all about?
Pretty sure the "America" we both see as outsiders is very different from the ones their own citizens experience everyday...
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Old 2011-08-13, 07:09   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You're not understanding. The game is rigged. The politicians are all corrupt before we even have a chance to vote on them!

Would you keep putting quarters in a rigged slot machine? Knowing full well that it will never land on the jackpot?

You do realize that is one of the definitions of insanity, right? Repeating the same action over and over yet expecting a different result each time.

Money and its power is by far the biggest problem happening to this country. The first step is to realize and acknowledge that.

Therefore, it might be best to consider America living under ONE National Party. Yes, technically, it's been Democratic vs Republican Parties for the most part. However, they're both so heavily influenced by big money, the corruption might as well combine them as one party.

So, there may very well be a need for a new third party based on the people's needs and shies away from big money.
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Old 2011-08-13, 07:51   Link #89
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Your capacity and to keep changing the people in government really depends on whether your viewpoint comes from the bottom, the middle or the top. It's easier to keep yourself in the political machine of the public sphere when you aren't trying to find your next meal on a daily basis. I'm sure you know that most people who can be active in this sphere are either those who have enough in their bank accounts to keep themselves protesting in the streets, or are fed on pure rage rather than food they can't afford.

I think you need to understand and consider the disillusionment of a great quantity of people who can't even deal with their own lives on a razor's edge much less deal with politics. Sometimes it's not a matter of logic but of emotion, and trust me when I say that for a lot of people, emotions are easier to fuel yourself with than logic when shit hits the fan.

Until the day you make the general populace feel like they matter to the way the country works, the time you can remove their apathy and put food in their stomachs, don't expect people to just sit down and think over the the way the government works.
See, that's why I use my birthplace as an example; a nation of 22million, 90% eligible population vote. Do you think the 90% are all rich? Do you think they vote because it is easy for them?

They vote because they want to. Because they know everyone else vote too, and when they are pissed off the government gets kicked out of office with, occasionally, angry mobs smashing their cars as they make their getaway. They can do that because they vote. Party had nothing to do with it.

You know what would happen if the 100 million non-voters of America voted? It would mean the 25% political diehards of each party would no longer run the country and America can have bipartisan politics again. If the Undecided Voters with no party affrication outnumber party supporters, then the government would be forced to run in a bipartisan way.
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Old 2011-08-13, 09:17   Link #90
Ithekro
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I normally would say the same, but there is still the electoral college for presidential races. Most states vote "all in" based on the majority of the popular vote. Each state has one electoral vote for each Senator and Representative they send to Washington D.C. which is destributed based on their population. California has 55 electoral votes, which is more than 10% of the total national electors. However in 2008 California voted heavily Democratic (61% of the total) which means over a 3.2 million vote difference between the two major parties. All third parties combined had a popular vote of less than 300,000.

California has a population of around 37 million. Of that it is estimated that 22 million were eligible to vote in 2008 and 13.7 million voted. That is a little over 8 million voters that didn't vote....which is about the number of vote President Obama got out of California in 2008

So...if California had 100% voter turnout, they would add 8 million more votes to the pool. If they all voted for something other than Democrat or Republican...it is possible for them to win the electoral college by themselves...barely. If they all went for one party, and assuming the numbers between the Republican and Democrats did not fluctuate wildly, which it can.

Obama won California in 2008 by about 3.2 million votes. (supposedly a 79% voter turnout, but looks more like 62%)

Kerry won California in 2004 by about 1.2 million votes. (47% voter turnout)

Gore won in 2000 by about 1.3 million votes. (71% voter turnout)

Clinton won in 1996 by 1.3 million votes. (65.5% voter turnout)

1992 was interesting. Clinton won over Bush and Perot, but the number are interesting.
Clinton won 5.1 million votes. Bush won 3.6 million and Perot won 2.3 million. And all this with a 54% voter turnout.
--------------------------Political shift---------------------------------------------
Bush won California in 1988 by a little over 350,000 votes.

And Reagan won by 1.5 million votes in 1980 and 1984. (probably far enough back for now).

Okay just one more, since this is the first one before my own time:
Ford won in California by just under 140,000 votes in 1976.
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Old 2011-08-13, 10:53   Link #91
Archon_Wing
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Oh I do vote, I just vote for stuff that's in my control; such as our state and local propositions. I don't waste my time on things I can't control. And having either party as president comes across as roughly a wash to me. Sorry, it doesn't matter. I know both sides like to paint each other as Satan but hey...

Actually I default to the Libertarian candidate almost exclusively these days.

And please, abstaining is a legit vote too. When a person doesn't have sufficient knowledge or care towards an issue, they shouldn't vote on that particular issue. But hey, voting isn't a test, you CAN leave stuff blank when you feel like you aren't qualified to make such a decision.

There's just a few elections where I refuse to support either side of the circus.

Oh btw, do you still beat your wife?
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Old 2011-08-13, 13:00   Link #92
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
See, that's why I use my birthplace as an example; a nation of 22million, 90% eligible population vote. Do you think the 90% are all rich? Do you think they vote because it is easy for them?

They vote because they want to. Because they know everyone else vote too, and when they are pissed off the government gets kicked out of office with, occasionally, angry mobs smashing their cars as they make their getaway. They can do that because they vote. Party had nothing to do with it.

You know what would happen if the 100 million non-voters of America voted? It would mean the 25% political diehards of each party would no longer run the country and America can have bipartisan politics again. If the Undecided Voters with no party affrication outnumber party supporters, then the government would be forced to run in a bipartisan way.
Which country is this (as a matter of interest...)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I normally would say the same, but there is still the electoral college for presidential races. Most states vote "all in" based on the majority of the popular vote. Each state has one electoral vote for each Senator and Representative they send to Washington D.C. which is destributed based on their population. California has 55 electoral votes, which is more than 10% of the total national electors. However in 2008 California voted heavily Democratic (61% of the total) which means over a 3.2 million vote difference between the two major parties. All third parties combined had a popular vote of less than 300,000.
I'd agree that it's a pretty outside shot for a third party to win the presidential election out of the gate, but what about Congress? Senate? State Legislatures? New parties aren't built in a day. They have to grow over a number of years and electoral cycles. You start small, get a presence, get one or two seats somewhere, then start to build your message. For instance I think a 3rd party could manage to get itself 2 or 3 congressional seats in it's first election, then maybe 10 in it's second, 20 in it's 3rd...

Likewise a party could also restrict itself to one state, then when it has sufficient presence in the state legislature, it can catapult it's most recognizable person there to congress, then from there...

Things are so tight at the moment that if a 3rd party managed to get even 20 seats in congress they'd probably start getting courted by the 2 big parties.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:00   Link #93
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You nailed it. If a third party starts getting momentum, the GOP or Dems will eat it. Look at what happened to the Tea Party. They were mostly idealistic libertarians. Now they're the dumping ground for super-right fascist Republicans. The older I get, the more I believe this system cannot be fixed without a lot of lead and high explosives, and a mountain of corpses.

You can't vote CEOs out of "office."
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:04   Link #94
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You nailed it. If a third party starts getting momentum, the GOP or Dems will eat it. Look at what happened to the Tea Party. They were mostly idealistic libertarians. Now they're the dumping ground for super-right fascist Republicans. The older I get, the more I believe this system cannot be fixed without a lot of lead and high explosives, and a mountain of corpses.

You can't vote CEOs out of "office."
sure you can, just need to have more shares on your side then the ceo.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:07   Link #95
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If only I had the money, I could wreak some major havok on the robber barons in this country.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:27   Link #96
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You nailed it. If a third party starts getting momentum, the GOP or Dems will eat it. Look at what happened to the Tea Party. They were mostly idealistic libertarians. Now they're the dumping ground for super-right fascist Republicans. The older I get, the more I believe this system cannot be fixed without a lot of lead and high explosives, and a mountain of corpses.

You can't vote CEOs out of "office."
See Syn, it's posts like that that make you look hawt!
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:44   Link #97
james0246
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
You can't vote CEOs out of "office."
Yes you can. We gave McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt the ability to do it, as well as Wilson, FDR and even Nixon a little (though Nixon helped put other CEOs in charge). Hell, Americans have given this ability to all their chosen Presidents, but few have ever really used this ability to the fullest. We don't have to be like the citizens that allowed buffoons like Hoover or Bush Jr. to become President (or if you prefer, Obama). The country can be changed and that can change can be done by voting.

If you feel helpless, and you think your vote is worthless, then find others that feel the same way and band together. One voice in a crowd can be ignored, but a mass of voices will be heard...even if, in the end, they end up betraying their own cause (I lament the Tea Party movement, which was founded on some decent ideals, that were quickly subsumed by corporate overlords; but if you could simply learn from that lesson, then you would have a chance to become as vocal and powerful as they are without being artificially enhanced by corporations).
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:56   Link #98
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Quote:
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Yes you can. We gave McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt the ability to do it, as well as Wilson, FDR and even Nixon a little (though Nixon helped put other CEOs in charge). Hell, Americans have given this ability to all their chosen Presidents, but few have ever really used this ability to the fullest. We don't have to be like the citizens that allowed buffoons like Hoover or Bush Jr. to become President (or if you prefer, Obama). The country can be changed and that can change can be done by voting.

If you feel helpless, and you think your vote is worthless, then find others that feel the same way and band together. One voice in a crowd can be ignored, but a mass of voices will be heard...even if, in the end, they end up betraying their own cause (I lament the Tea Party movement, which was founded on some decent ideals, that were quickly subsumed by corporate overlords; but if you could simply learn from that lesson, then you would have a chance to become as vocal and powerful as they are without being artificially enhanced by corporations).
You make a good point there. I've actually toyed with the idea of starting a blog and writing political essays on various subjects, and several people I know have been kicking around the idea of starting a new political party.

I kind of laughed it off at first because, well, you have no money, nobody cares about your little party. Look at the Pirate Party, formed by broke people on the Internet. Nobody cares. Nobody gives a shit. No politician takes them seriously here.

A lot of voices does make for good momentum I agree, but without millions of dollars backing the voices up, it doesn't seem to work.

I haven't completely given up. I still vote on local elections and propositions. I still write my congresspeople when I feel strongly about something. Just recently I sent a scathing letter to my congresspeople about the AT&T / T-Mobile merger. It didn't do any good--the merger will go through, nobody can match AT&T's lobbying power.

This is what I mean. Anyone will get discouraged, if you fail 100% of the time.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:57   Link #99
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Well our useless governor decided to throw his hat into the ring
i wonder how long he will last
http://kut.org/2011/08/gov-perry-dec...for-president/
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:59   Link #100
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About as long as Huckaby did. Only the evangelical voting block will vote for a raving zealot.
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