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Old 2011-11-21, 16:03   Link #1221
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe they should put candidacy as a kind of jury duty. Pull a few names out of a hat, and have the voters choose the best one.
Rome style, eh? Like all systems it has its risks, but also its merits. I think it would have been pretty successful when America took educating its population more seriously. Not sure about how well it would work at present.
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Old 2011-11-21, 16:13   Link #1222
Ithekro
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Thing is, even if you are a firecracker with only one term...you might have the people's support. But if the beauracrates don't want to move, they won't, or they will make you go through a thousand hoops to do anything you want to do. Sure you might be able to fire them, but the new incoming people won't know the rest of the system, so then your changes start snowballing in unexpected places (You have changed the education system for the better...but now hospitals are underfunded. Plus the benefits for he improved education sytem won't actually make itself known until that generation of kids grows up. Plus you might have resistance to change, either with the teachers, the administrators, or...the parents. The kids will likely do whatever.)
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Old 2011-11-21, 16:40   Link #1223
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by cors8 View Post
Which courts? The courts are also getting politicized, especially at the local level.
Hence the importance of an independent judiciary...

Whose bright idea was it to make judicial appointments so politicized anyway?
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Old 2011-11-21, 18:27   Link #1224
cors8
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Hence the importance of an independent judiciary...

Whose bright idea was it to make judicial appointments so politicized anyway?
It's not only that. Some local court judges are elected too.
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Old 2011-11-21, 18:35   Link #1225
solomon
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I've heard about that legendary "beauracracy" influence in Japanese politics.

What IS it?
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Old 2011-11-21, 18:47   Link #1226
Ithekro
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Hired people that operate the government. From the clerks, to the assistants, to the managers. It is basically everyone that is needed to make a governement fuction...or disfuction. They are the people that do he writting, the filing, the people that take the phone calls. The management that is over the various departments that get things done under the elected official. Each and every staff is likely a part of the beauracracy.

These are the people that follow the codes, procedures, and laws that make stuff happen or not happen. Go to the DMV and you will see beauracracy in action. Every piece of legal document goes though some form of beauracracy. This is a reason legal forms are filed in triplicate, or that you need a form or license to do something to your own home. For all that you have to go through the beauracracy.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:04   Link #1227
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Hired people that operate the government. From the clerks, to the assistants, to the managers. It is basically everyone that is needed to make a governement fuction...or disfuction. They are the people that do he writting, the filing, the people that take the phone calls.
You're saying that people in those positions will actively try to get in the way of an elected representative in order to exercise their own influence? I've heard the stereotype that government workers are lazy and inefficient, but I've never heard of that. Do you have any examples of such a thing? I can't believe that it's real.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:32   Link #1228
Ithekro
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One task for a beaurocrat is: "Bureaucratic control is the use of rules, regulations, and formal authority to guide performance. It includes such things as budgets, statistical reports, and performance appraisals to regulate behavior and results."

If a politician tries to get something done, he must go through the beaurocracy for the tules, regulations, budget, reports and so on. If what the politician is doing goes counter to what the beaurocracy wants (assuming said beaurocracy is either corrupt, biased, or has a vested interets in not having something changed) they can simply make the process take exceedingly long so that either the politican gives up on the idea, or the people get tired with the politician not doing anything about whatever it was...because the public will blame the elected official. This seems to be very true when it comes to budgets. If a departments budgest might get cut via some law, they might see to it that the law gets..."lost" or that the procedures mess it up somehow, or delay it. They might also work with other politicians to keep the law from being enacted.

The other problem would be that is is the beaurocracy that actually impliments the laws. Thus they can also be the ones to mess them up. Not put enough budget into it, or create regulations that basically make the law unworkable. There seem to have been several instances where a law gets passed, but the law basically does nothing or ends up costing more than was expected (or the fund get divered to some other project).

While I can't sight a specific example, these things have been suggested to happen thoughout history. Corruption usually is not the politicians alone, but the beaurocracy. I think China has been know for a large beaurocracy for thousands of years.

To quote the Wikipedia quoting Woodrow Wilson:

Quote:
As an academic, Woodrow Wilson professed:
“But to fear the creation of a domineering, illiberal officialism as a result of the studies I am here proposing is to miss altogether the principle upon which I wish most to insist. That principle is, that administration in the United States must be at all points sensitive to public opinion. A body of thoroughly trained officials serving during good behavior we must have in any case: that is a plain business necessity. But the apprehension that such a body will be anything un-American clears away the moment it is asked. What is to constitute good behavior? For that question obviously carries its own answer on its face. Steady, hearty allegiance to the policy of the government they serve will constitute good behavior. That policy will have no taint of officialism about it. It will not be the creation of permanent officials, but of statesmen whose responsibility to public opinion will be direct and inevitable. Bureaucracy can exist only where the whole service of the state is removed from the common political life of the people, its chiefs as well as its rank and file. Its motives, its objects, its policy, its standards, must be bureaucratic. It would be difficult to point out any examples of impudent exclusiveness and arbitrariness on the part of officials doing service under a chief of department who really served the people, as all our chiefs of departments must be made to do. It would be easy, on the other hand, to adduce other instances like that of the influence of Stein in Prussia, where the leadership of one statesman imbued with true public spirit transformed arrogant and perfunctory bureaux into public-spirited instruments of just government.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:37   Link #1229
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the bureaucracy doesn't actually have to anything activate against a law or politician they don't like. The Bureaucracy can just drag their feet and not do anything beyond the bare minimum.
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Old 2011-11-21, 20:29   Link #1230
ganbaru
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Lessons for U.S. from Canada's "basket case" moment
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AK0EP20111121
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Old 2011-11-21, 22:57   Link #1231
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At a Monday afternoon speech in New Hampshire where he unveiled his plan for revamping entitlement programs, Gingrich reiterated his ideas about child labor laws, saying that kids janitors “would be dramatically less expensive than unionized janitors.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z2

1900s here we come.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:06   Link #1232
flying ^
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
At a Monday afternoon speech in New Hampshire where he unveiled his plan for revamping entitlement programs, Gingrich reiterated his ideas about child labor laws, saying that kids janitors “would be dramatically less expensive than unionized janitors.”
Quote:
“Most of these schools ought to get rid of the unionized janitors, have one master janitor and pay local students to take care of the school,” Gingrich said according to a CNN video. “The kids would actually do work, they would have cash, they’d have pride in the schools, they’d begin the process of rising. Get any job that teaches you to show up on Monday. Get any job that teaches you to stay all day, even if you’re having a fight with your girlfriend.

at least students in east asia do it for free cause they have to!
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:31   Link #1233
solomon
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..........you expect kids who cant keep their rooms clean half the time to take care of public places.............

anything to get out of paying people a decent living wage.
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:43   Link #1234
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by solomon View Post
anything to get out of paying people a decent living wage.
I didn't read the article, but I'm going to guess that Newt Gingrich was making an over-the-top comparison that was really intended to be a dig at labor unions, rather than a serious suggestion that we allow child labor. Some politicians have some suggestions that are really out there, but this would be a bit much.

If it were true, though, it'd be rather interesting in terms of the whole focus on job creation. They'd basically be putting people out of work. Then again, I sort of wonder how they perceive their talk about removing entire government departments and slashing funding. The government is a huge employer, after all, and they'd be putting a lot of people out of work. Has any candidate ever remarked on that at all?
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Old 2011-11-22, 00:48   Link #1235
Ithekro
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Hmmm. I do know that people will clean other people's rooms and stuff and still have a messy room. Some people go to hotel rooms or inns, or other people's homes and are very neat and clean with their stuff in those place...yet their own homes or rooms are an absolute disaster area. And this is without the addition of getting paid.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:28   Link #1236
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I didn't read the article, but I'm going to guess that Newt Gingrich was making an over-the-top comparison that was really intended to be a dig at labor unions, rather than a serious suggestion that we allow child labor. Some politicians have some suggestions that are really out there, but this would be a bit much.
Not really. He's just saying poor people's children should work. That'll teach them not to be so lazy.
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Old 2011-11-22, 01:36   Link #1237
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not really. He's just saying poor people's children should work. That'll teach them not to be so lazy.
It was a short article, so I read it. Aside from some contradictory statements (he claims that he doesn't want to revamp child labor laws, but then goes on to rail against them), his point actually isn't quite as bad as it sounds. His primary example is with school janitors: have one "master janitor" and then employ students under him. It would be a way for students to earn money, but perhaps more importantly, it would give them a sense that they're working toward something (earning money, advancing in ranks) and they would have something to take pride in (their work, their school). It's certainly a rather romantic notion, and there are some potentially major implications over revamping child labor laws, but I can't really disagree with his sentiments. I don't know that it would work out the way that he envisions it, but I like the idea.
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Old 2011-11-22, 02:10   Link #1238
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It was a short article, so I read it. Aside from some contradictory statements (he claims that he doesn't want to revamp child labor laws, but then goes on to rail against them), his point actually isn't quite as bad as it sounds. His primary example is with school janitors: have one "master janitor" and then employ students under him. It would be a way for students to earn money, but perhaps more importantly, it would give them a sense that they're working toward something (earning money, advancing in ranks) and they would have something to take pride in (their work, their school). It's certainly a rather romantic notion, and there are some potentially major implications over revamping child labor laws, but I can't really disagree with his sentiments. I don't know that it would work out the way that he envisions it, but I like the idea.
Personally, I've always been a fan of having K-12 students *participate* in keeping their school in shape ala the way the Japanese school systems do it. There's a lot of "community" participation that has vanished in the last couple of decades.
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Old 2011-11-22, 02:21   Link #1239
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It was a short article, so I read it. Aside from some contradictory statements (he claims that he doesn't want to revamp child labor laws, but then goes on to rail against them), his point actually isn't quite as bad as it sounds. His primary example is with school janitors: have one "master janitor" and then employ students under him. It would be a way for students to earn money, but perhaps more importantly, it would give them a sense that they're working toward something (earning money, advancing in ranks) and they would have something to take pride in (their work, their school). It's certainly a rather romantic notion, and there are some potentially major implications over revamping child labor laws, but I can't really disagree with his sentiments. I don't know that it would work out the way that he envisions it, but I like the idea.
If I read it right, he wants to tack 20 hours work weeks on top of school work, for children less than 14 years old. That sounds pretty bad to me. I mean, sure, they learn to work as janitors at an early age, but it impedes their advancement through academic performance, and by the time they drop out of high school, all the janitor jobs are taken by cheap as dirt children. There can only be so many master janitor openings, and I'll bet they'll be filled with college graduates...

(I wouldn't oppose Vexx' idea. I'm not sure I'd object to Gingrich's idea if it had a smaller load. But specifically targeting the poor with something that looks designed to make them fail at school goes against the grain for me.)
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Old 2011-11-22, 02:38   Link #1240
Ledgem
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Personally, I've always been a fan of having K-12 students *participate* in keeping their school in shape ala the way the Japanese school systems do it. There's a lot of "community" participation that has vanished in the last couple of decades.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If I read it right, he wants to tack 20 hours work weeks on top of school work, for children less than 14 years old. That sounds pretty bad to me.
The article is pretty brief, but based on it alone I didn't get the impression that he wants to make it mandatory. Rather, I think he views it as giving younger people in poverty a chance to earn some extra money (whether for themselves or to help their families), with the added benefits of having them feel empowered, giving them responsibilities, and making them feel more connected with their school (society). Granted, just because he wouldn't make it mandatory doesn't mean that many young child wouldn't be forced into taking these types of work, possibly at the expense of their schoolwork. Not all parents see the value of education, and if a family is really struggling economically, the children will probably be put to work.

So as with most things, it has the potential to be helpful or harmful, and the overall impact will vary from child to child.
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