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Old 2011-11-26, 00:08   Link #1261
ganbaru
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:11   Link #1262
subwaygyal
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Lets gooooo team obama (Y) =D
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Old 2011-11-28, 22:12   Link #1263
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Looks like Democrat's ready to give up on working class whites this year.
... will focus more on the usual l33ts, eccentrics and the dependents


Quote:
For decades, Democrats have suffered continuous and increasingly severe losses among white voters. But preparations by Democratic operatives for the 2012 election make it clear for the first time that the party will explicitly abandon the white working class.

All pretense of trying to win a majority of the white working class has been effectively jettisoned in favor of cementing a center-left coalition made up, on the one hand, of voters who have gotten ahead on the basis of educational attainment -- professors, artists, designers, editors, human resources managers, lawyers, librarians, social workers, teachers and therapists -- and a second, substantial constituency of lower-income voters who are disproportionately African-American and Hispanic.
.....

Quote:
The 2012 approach treats white voters without college degrees as an unattainable cohort. The Democratic goal with these voters is to keep Republican winning margins to manageable levels, in the 12 to 15 percent range, as opposed to the 30-point margin of 2010 — a level at which even solid wins among minorities and other constituencies are not enough to produce Democratic victories.
http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.c...ama-coalition/

Last edited by flying ^; 2011-11-28 at 22:34.
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Old 2011-11-29, 09:50   Link #1264
Vexx
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Interesting but the opinion analysis article flying cites makes a number of assertions without actually quoting or citing anyone from the Democratic Party strategy teams. It ignores the connection of working class whites to unions (strong Democrat supporters typically) and it seems to point towards a new *progressive* coalition vector once one reads past the first few paragraphs. This statement near the front just floats in the air without any support:
Quote:
All pretense of trying to win a majority of the white working class has been effectively jettisoned in favor of cementing a center-left coalition made up, on the one hand, of voters who have gotten ahead on the basis of educational attainment — professors, artists, designers, editors, human resources managers, lawyers, librarians, social workers, teachers and therapists — and a second, substantial constituency of lower-income voters who are disproportionately African-American and Hispanic.
Nowhere in the article is that statement supported - its an assertion unsupported by any data. The article does go into a lot of depth on creating a *progressive* coalition and basically points out that "white voters without college degrees" often vote against their own best economic interests... because they're easily manipulated by irrational hot-button issues the GOP plutocrats love to use.

Three comments of interest from the source article:
Quote:
I understand this strategy, as the working class has voted against its own best interest since Reagan's presidency. The exception to this of course are union membership, but it is in decline. And even in union members, the fear of gun control, of minorities taking their jobs, and loss of value in their homes, has caused them to fal into the trap of voting against their own best interest. In other words, the southern strategy of republicans works everywhere that there are uneducated voters. This strategy is based on fear being a great motivater.
Quote:
I think you're ignoring the polls that show 68% of all voters asked blamed the Republicans for the failure of the Supercommittee to come to an agreement on resolving the nation's deficit problem. Just because a citizen doesn't hold a college degree and whose income has dropped about 25% in the last 30 years (according to a California Budget Project survey) doesn't means that makes him incapable of blaiming Republicans when he marks his ballot in 2012.
Quote:
The missing argument is the simple one, which brings us back to basics: unrich whites are being punished by the economic policies of Republicans. They are the suckers in the GOP, because their votes are precisely what has made them poorer so that the rich could get richer.

Has anyone written a doctoral thesis about this? Why do unrich whites keep voting for those who enable the extraction of wealth from the unrich to the rich?
The author is a progressive who is unhappy with the Democrats because they have been hijacked by the misnamed "centrists" (corporatist is the proper word) but don't think he'd shift to the GOP in response, he's advocating a progressive alliance at the end of the opinion piece. However, at the end of his piece, he pulls his punches saying neither party has a sure win scenario.

Last edited by Vexx; 2011-11-29 at 10:07.
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Old 2011-11-29, 20:27   Link #1265
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(I had another round of political talks with my father so I can engage it this at the moment)

The non-college going white crowd (as well as some of the college graduates I suppose as well) would contend that "educated" are more brainwashed into believing in "socialism" and turning their backs on what they would consider "America".

"America" as in the ideal that everyone makes his own way, sort of deal. The idealistic America I suppose. One with less government agencies. The concept would have the questions, "do we really, really need all these agencies, committees, and subcommittees? Do we need the massive beauracracy? Do we need career politicians?" This is before getting into social services, welfare, or other forms of "handouts"...be they public or corperate.

This group basically sees OWS as a group of swatters from what they can tell are yelling at the wrong groups. They tend to see the large corperations as the ones that hire people (the service providing companies like AT&T, PG&E, and the like), as well as the companies that make products that also hire people. The ones they think the OWS should be after are the ones like Walmart, or other massive stores that move product, but make none themselves. The companies that hire maybe a hundred people in a region, lower prices to the point the small businesses close, making maybe 500 unemployed, and lowering the tax base of the region (if there is a sales tax for instance...the lower the price, the less tax the city gets. Or property taxes or business licease fees and such for all the companies that go out of business because they can't fuctionally compete. That is also lost revenue.)

Basically they think the OWS is not worth anything because of the idea of hypocracy. Using and enjoying the comforts of the people they are trying to tell off.

The problem with OWS is that they have either failed to get their message out, or have failed to have a message. Thus what would be the voter base, doesn't care.

Of course the non-religious voter base also has no idea what the Tea Party is suppose to be either.

Some in this group had no love for Reagan either, but after the fact contend that they had it good under him, being able to live of the interest off investments in retirement for instance. My grandparents were able to go on a lot of cruises in the 1980s and into the 1990s because they could afford to do so without losing money. Now I think my grandmother makes half a percent off her investments....and that is considered good. They don't recall exactly when things changed, by generally think it happened under the Clinton Administration. It is possible it was the Bush Administration in the 2000s, but my memory of such things is not that good personally, since I didn't really start banking until the 1990s and working until 1998.

As for the election:

The assumpton is that of the Republicans running, Newt has the best chance at having his name recognized, and having experiance as Speaker of the House.

However the other assumption is that people won't elect him because of family baggage. Most have no idea who the other people are unless you come from their state. Most of the canidates have made a mess of themselves in their disputes with each other and look foolish. The Rupublican voters want someone that will clean up the government. Get rid of what they consider unnecessary agencies and committies. Cut programs as needed (from their point of view of course). And in general get the government to function, presumably for the people. They want to remove the seeming unending cycle of bickering in Washington by cleaning house (and senate). I'd suggest cleaning out the rest of it. Perhaps start over.

Not in the revolution sort of way, but just a general removal of everyone and then start rehiring and electing. Those programs which are vital to the actual fuction of governement first. After that it becomes an on need basis.

I would point out that this group of voters has no love for the EPA. They generally consider it to be unnecessary at worst, and too powerful at best. The Californian might recall many years ago they made a law mandating that 2% of all cars sold in California by some date had to be zero emissions. All cars sold...not cars in the state, not cares registered at the DMV,...sold. The problem with this, aside from the implied EPA meddling, is that at that time, there were effectively no cars that were zero emissions when the law came out. You cannot mandate a populations purchasing habits. If by the time the law was to be in effect there were no such car..than what? What if the car was ugly or handled poorly so that no one wanted one even if it was availible?

That law was removed. But it left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths against the EPA.
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Old 2011-11-29, 20:59   Link #1266
DonQuigleone
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I think the problem with the US is that there's too much attention being paid to Presidential elections and not enough to local, state and congressional elections, which are far more important when it comes to issues that effect daily lives, and domestic policy (particularly employment etc.). The president is the "glamourous" one, while basically people don't think so hard about who they elect to congress.

Doesn't matter who you elect to the presidency, if they can't rally congress behind them they won't achieve anything significant, I think the Obama presidency can prove that.

And that's the problem with a lot of 3rd party movements as well, they get behind some big charismatic guy for one election season, but they fail to build any kind of local organisation, and ultimately they fizzle out of existence. Look at Perot and the Reform Party. Or even Teddy Roosevelt and the Bull Moose/Progressives.

Such movements lack roots. They try and sieze power without any of the underlying infrastructure necessary to build up a large consistent base of support. Look at other 3rd party movements. Say the Labour party in the UK. They first ran in 1900, getting 1.8% of the vote. They only finally managed to break the conservative/liberal duopoly in 1918, as part of a coalition government, and in 1923 as a minority government. They did not succesfully get an outright majority in Parliament until 1945!

They built up their organisation slowly from the ground up. Labour was represented at all levels.

To get back to what Ithekro was saying, the problem with OWS, is that while I sympathise with their aims, they haven't done anything to build up any kind of political organisation. While I understand such an organisation would run somewhat counter to their ethos, if they don't organise, they'll just be another flash in the pan. Now obviously it's still early days, so I'm not giving up on them, but they do need to get their message out in a more practicable manner. And they need to aim to get people elected at all levels, but they should be prepared for only modest victories. Movements can come and go quickly, but political parties need time.

Let's not forget that other countries with similiar first past the post systems do manage third parties. Look at the UK, they have the Liberal Democrats, now in coalition. Or Canada has the Conservatives, New Democrats and Liberals, with the New Democrats being until recently a "3rd party". All these succesful 3rd parties have a decent history behind them, and a core base of support that prevents them from ever being truly wiped out.

It's always going to be hard to hit the white house with a new 3rd party candidate. But America has limited power invested in the president (again, as Obama's presidency shows...), you don't think a 3rd party couldn't unseat a single congressmen? A senator? A governor?

The Tea Party recently managed a quasi 3rd party introduction, albeit within the Republican party. To create an actual viable 3rd party only requires the will to do so, and keep at it for years.

Remember the UK Labour party I mentioned? They're may have only been a 17 year gap between their first running and actually getting elected in some way (though that's still pretty long), but antecedents to Labour existed for 20 years prior to that, and started out winning seats in city councils. It's not glamourous, but it's a place to start.
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Old 2011-11-30, 08:16   Link #1267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think the problem with the US is that there's too much attention being paid to Presidential elections and not enough to local, state and congressional elections, which are far more important when it comes to issues that effect daily lives, and domestic policy (particularly employment etc.). The president is the "glamourous" one, while basically people don't think so hard about who they elect to congress.

Doesn't matter who you elect to the presidency, if they can't rally congress behind them they won't achieve anything significant, I think the Obama presidency can prove that.

And that's the problem with a lot of 3rd party movements as well, they get behind some big charismatic guy for one election season, but they fail to build any kind of local organisation, and ultimately they fizzle out of existence. Look at Perot and the Reform Party. Or even Teddy Roosevelt and the Bull Moose/Progressives.

Such movements lack roots. They try and sieze power without any of the underlying infrastructure necessary to build up a large consistent base of support. Look at other 3rd party movements. Say the Labour party in the UK. They first ran in 1900, getting 1.8% of the vote. They only finally managed to break the conservative/liberal duopoly in 1918, as part of a coalition government, and in 1923 as a minority government. They did not succesfully get an outright majority in Parliament until 1945!

They built up their organisation slowly from the ground up. Labour was represented at all levels.

To get back to what Ithekro was saying, the problem with OWS, is that while I sympathise with their aims, they haven't done anything to build up any kind of political organisation. While I understand such an organisation would run somewhat counter to their ethos, if they don't organise, they'll just be another flash in the pan. Now obviously it's still early days, so I'm not giving up on them, but they do need to get their message out in a more practicable manner. And they need to aim to get people elected at all levels, but they should be prepared for only modest victories. Movements can come and go quickly, but political parties need time.

Let's not forget that other countries with similiar first past the post systems do manage third parties. Look at the UK, they have the Liberal Democrats, now in coalition. Or Canada has the Conservatives, New Democrats and Liberals, with the New Democrats being until recently a "3rd party". All these succesful 3rd parties have a decent history behind them, and a core base of support that prevents them from ever being truly wiped out.

It's always going to be hard to hit the white house with a new 3rd party candidate. But America has limited power invested in the president (again, as Obama's presidency shows...), you don't think a 3rd party couldn't unseat a single congressmen? A senator? A governor?

The Tea Party recently managed a quasi 3rd party introduction, albeit within the Republican party. To create an actual viable 3rd party only requires the will to do so, and keep at it for years.

Remember the UK Labour party I mentioned? They're may have only been a 17 year gap between their first running and actually getting elected in some way (though that's still pretty long), but antecedents to Labour existed for 20 years prior to that, and started out winning seats in city councils. It's not glamourous, but it's a place to start.
Modern people do not have the patience to endure the time required for something like this. I suppose that most modern people will view a partyt that takes 17 years to make a dent in the system as "FAIL"

The modern citizens are an instant gratification group.

"we want it now... like clicking the link to a gmail account... NOW !"
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Old 2011-11-30, 11:41   Link #1268
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There are some politicians who clearly understand our economic problem here in the US.
Denis Kucinich being among them.

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Old 2011-11-30, 13:36   Link #1269
ganbaru
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American Airlines seeks to shed planes, engines
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AT1RO20111130
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Old 2011-11-30, 14:07   Link #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
text.
pretty much what i said back in 2008(minus the labor party).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Modern people do not have the patience to endure the time required for something like this. I suppose that most modern people will view a partyt that takes 17 years to make a dent in the system as "FAIL"

The modern citizens are an instant gratification group.

"we want it now... like clicking the link to a gmail account... NOW !"
that is US pop in a snap shot.
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Old 2011-11-30, 16:35   Link #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Modern people do not have the patience to endure the time required for something like this. I suppose that most modern people will view a partyt that takes 17 years to make a dent in the system as "FAIL"

The modern citizens are an instant gratification group.

"we want it now... like clicking the link to a gmail account... NOW !"
Of course, politicians are the opposite. If there is a hard but necessary decision to make, they just kick the can down the road for someone else to do it. I fail to see how failure to act is somehow better than demand for swift action.
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Old 2011-11-30, 17:15   Link #1272
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
American Airlines seeks to shed planes, engines
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AT1RO20111130
MD-80's. I don't trust these planes. Old planes. Small planes. Unwanted planes.
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Old 2011-11-30, 18:16   Link #1273
ganbaru
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UK expels Iran diplomats after embassy attack
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AS0X720111130
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Old 2011-12-01, 02:26   Link #1274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Basically they think the OWS is not worth anything because of the idea of hypocracy. Using and enjoying the comforts of the people they are trying to tell off.
It always bugs me to hear this. Are there some people within the movement who want to get something for nothing? I'm sure there are. Is it what the movement stands for? No. The movement - at its core - is about inequalities that have formed within society. Why is it that the average pay divide between an average worker and his executive has gone from something like a difference of 6x to 200x over the course of the last 20 years? Why is it that financial institutions - places that aren't even creating a physical product - are allowed to royally screw up and then be saved by the government, when other businesses would be left to disappear?

The other point of the movement is to show the government and corporations that the public is sick of the way that things are going. The government seemingly isn't getting the message from its ratings that are now at an all-time low, and corporations also seem a little out of touch. The past few years were, in my opinion, a time of apathy for the general public - people generally felt powerless, or they were uninterested in what was going on. This movement put people out where they were clearly visible, and stirred up enough fuss that the general apathy was pulled back a bit. Whether someone agrees with the movement or not, I'd imagine that they would agree that those benefits are good things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Cut programs as needed (from their point of view of course). And in general get the government to function, presumably for the people.
Yup, everyone wants spending cuts, so long as it doesn't affect their benefits or the benefits of those who are close to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I would point out that this group of voters has no love for the EPA. They generally consider it to be unnecessary at worst, and too powerful at best.
I once met a guy who was vehemently anti-EPA. He worked for a manufacturing plant that made some automotive equipment. His opinion was that the EPA was a handicap: it added a number of regulations that made the work more difficult and more costly to carry out. By comparison, manufacturing in China is much simpler, and as such, much cheaper. There are no pesky regulations to deal with. How can the United States compete with that?

It's true, but it's a short-sighted view. China is handicapping itself in the damage that it is doing to its environment and its population. Its activity is not sustainable. I'm not going to say that the EPA is a flawless organization, but it serves a very important function. People are very quick to take for granted the conditions that we enjoy thanks to regulations created and enforced by many of our government agencies.
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Old 2011-12-01, 02:41   Link #1275
Ithekro
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Sometimes the bad gets sen too much and the good goes unremarked.

However other times a group gets too powerful or its reason for existance either does not really exist anymore, or could be done by a smaller, less powerful group.

The trouble is finding that out from the outside looking in.

How do we the people fix something we can't effectively see? We can't get confirmation on if committees, agencies, or even entire departments of government are really necessary for the nation to fuction.

Much like we usually can't find out if our laws are needed or not (I don't mean laws in general, I mean the huge body of laws that fill the books.) So many laws are never removed even when obsolete. There are even jokes made about some state laws that seem to have no modern fuction, but if invoked will still land you in jail (or worse). Other times it is that the law has no subtance to it. It is hard to justify, or enforce. Sometimes they just add more laws on top of laws (some that conflict with each other even) and yet never enforce any of them realistically. Some laws likely need to be cleaned out...but can the people do that? Probably not.
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Old 2011-12-01, 07:14   Link #1276
DonQuigleone
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IE the EPA: I don't think people quite appreciate how nice it is to live in Smog free cities. Sure Chinese companies can operate more cheaply, but you also can't breathe the air there either.
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Old 2011-12-01, 08:43   Link #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
IE the EPA: I don't think people quite appreciate how nice it is to live in Smog free cities. Sure Chinese companies can operate more cheaply, but you also can't breathe the air there either.
You can't breathe the air there? Have you been to china and returned with lung cancer?

I guess I can reuse Ithekro's comment here but more literally:
Quote:
How do we the people fix something we can't effectively see?
The life expectancy of people in china is approx. 71 for male and 75 for female.
Hong Kong's life expectancy is ranked 2nd highest in the world after Japan at approx. 80 for male and 85 for female. Which is a higher than most places in the world ranging from the age of death at 30's to 82.

In 2008 in Canada, 18,000 died from lung cancer. Which is one 6/10000 of the total population. (same goes for US, 180k deaths out of 300 million)
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11...y-ways-to-die/

Where in China, 250,000 died from lung cancer. Which is 1/10000 of the total population.
http://www.atcs.jp/pdf/2003_9_3/147.pdf

The carbon emission per capita in China is 5.3 metric tonnes. In Ireland, that's 9.8. And in the U.S., it's 17.5.
http://www.eia.gov/emeu/internationa...ondioxide.html (in an .xls at the bottom)

It's the same as looking at world overpopulation. The rate of increase is much more important and valuable than what the current standing quantity is.

And the media is just turning our attention to somebody else so we don't have to see and realize how much of a problem it is here and how much money we are spending on absolutely nothing.

---------------------
As for OWS, it doesn't matter what pure and acceptable ideas were involved. It wasn't an organized protest. It was more of an illegal camping activity and pointless violent riot and obstructing the daily working life of others who have better things to do. There was no consistency amongst any of the protestors and especially internationally.

It should be the organizer's duty to tell off protestors who aren't there for the right reasons. If those people refuse to leave, move to a different location. State it clear to the media that some of the protestors are not invited and are not associated with the movement. Instead, people ran away from cameras and covered their face with bandanas.

There was one person who openly agreed to an interview at a news station, and he was probably the most mentally challenged and misrepresenting person you can pick from the OWS movement. That was truly unfortunate.

There was never a 99%. There might have been a 30% who would agree and support whatever OWS' original intention was but we aren't people that act before we think. And we saw that the OWS was mindless chaos. People who actually had some sense realized this is not a good time to voice their views and complaints.

---------------------------

I was involved with a few people in my random gaming forums in planning to participate. Our 'little group's' goal was protesting against the income tax that does is not coherent to our personal likings in relations to an individual's income. And this imbalance is causing a severe stretch from the poor, the norm and the wealthy. None of us bothered with any of it as soon as we saw the actual movement. We stopped when an overwhelming number of anon's started bashing capitalism. And when communism was brought up, they thought it is just as stupid and 'unfair'. And that is enough to prove that the people don't know anything about society at all.

Last edited by Paranoid Android; 2011-12-01 at 09:09.
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Old 2011-12-01, 10:02   Link #1278
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Embattled Cain says campaign plans rest with wife
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AR2CH20111201

Edit , a link to a text in french about another Bachmannism :
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/états-unis-...093400110.html
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Old 2011-12-01, 10:38   Link #1279
Zetsubo
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Do the majority of Americans really understand what is to be a socialist state ?

That is to say, do they really understand what Socialism is especially as opposed to Communism ?
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Old 2011-12-01, 10:52   Link #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Do the majority of Americans really understand what is to be a socialist state ?

That is to say, do they really understand what Socialism is especially as opposed to Communism ?
Short Answer - No
Long Answer - Absolutely not
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