[Manga] Naruto Chapter 551 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

I really can't believe people are still asking for more boosts and training for naruto; amazing... When I read Naruto ask Nagato to teach him, I was like "you gotta be kidding me". I really hope we're not going to have to sit through yet another training arc where he gets yet another sensei/teacher that hands over some powerful secret technique that we have to sit and watch him struggle with, and finally suddenly master it with some melodrama and of course the goofy humor. Its crazy that people still arent satisfied at this ridiculous level of power.

The problem is not with super-powers, the problem is that Naruto must be smart and not panic or rage when fighting, he must always choose the best option or Madara, Sasuke or Kabuto will kill him, we have seen that even one moment of stupidity can kill him when the opponent is smart, experienced and goes for the kill. Until now Naruto has never had a real 1on1 fight with a super-powered opponent, every time there were some circumstances in his favor. Sure Kishimoto can do this until the end, but it would be annoying if Naruto can never beat a Pain-level opponent all by himself. So it's not that Itachi has to teach him some super-jutsu, he needs to teach him how to effectively fight the EMS, how to seal a zombie, what special powers Madara can have (for example Izanagi). This should be an overall training, we have seen how Jiraiya was teaching Naruto overall skills like fighting against genjutsu, but we see that Naruto on his current level can't do anything against EMS genjutsu that was able to trick even the super-experienced Danzou. There's also the crow that seems to be a permanent gift, we see it on the last picture of this chapter, so i think the crow will be Naruto's genjutsu provider, like another summon besides the frogs, so Naruto needs to learn how to use the crow. There's also the most important thing for us readers: if Naruto learns different useful things from Itachi he might use these in troublesome situations, at that is good for the coreography of big battles, for example to have different cliffhangers at the end of chapters where it seems Naruto is beaten but then in the next chapter Naruto uses some surprising tactics/tricks which he learned from Itachi or some secret knowledge about the weakness of a move. What we have seen here from Itachi is actually the opposite of what you suggested: Itachi did teach Naruto that every jutsu/ability has a weakness, which means we can have real ninja fights from Naruto instead of just using some super-jutsu allowed by his monster-level-abilities (kyuubi mode, sage mode). To have a smarter Naruto for the 3rd act (as Nagato says) : Pre-Itachi Naruto beating Chibaku Tensei with monster-transformation and raging like an animal, post-Itachi Naruto beating it by finding it's weakness and using the most effective jutsu he has. This is what i expect from a Naruto which can beat Madara in a beliveable way.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Seeing how many complaints there are about Naruto's current bad performance i think my old training idea would be really good here, the idea was that when there's no time a training place like the one Goku and Gohan were in would be nice, Itachi could train Naruto for months or even years inside Tsukiyomi while in the real world it's just an instant. That would be a great way to power up Naruto to fight Madara and Sasuke, since Itachi knows their sharingan powers so much. And more importantly we would have some Itachi chapters in the manga, this cool character deserves some more screen time as a good guy before he goes back to the realm of the dead. To teach Naruto how to use the crow's powers to counter Sasuke's genjutsu, to make Naruto smarter in fights, to have flashbacks about what really happened, to become friends with Naruto, to become Naruto's last "sensei". And of course to have a little time-out from this war, some relax time inside an illusion world before Naruto goes to war.

Allow me to go vomit in the corner. I would agree with the One Piece fans who bash Naruto if something so lame like this happened. It would be worse than Bleach. The last thing we need is to interrupt the entire war arc with another Naruto training session and more powerups for Naruto. How many training sessions and powerups does this idiot need?

Imagine if Oda just had Luffy go through meeting his uber special parents and had gotten a powerup. Then he had him train with Jinbe to get more power. Then he started a major war arc. Now right in the middle of this war, and not long after he already had gotten special powerups, Shanks takes him to a special place where he will train to defeat Akainu because he still is not ready. It would be infuriating.

Naruto doesn't need more sensei. He has had 8,000 of them!!! No more babysitters for Naruto! At this point Naruto has to succeed or fail on his own. If he can't win with endless powerups than he was a sucky main character to begin with. His father didn't need any sharingan and Uchiha training session to help with Madara. Neither should Naruto. Ugh. Naruto is suppose to learn about war now. Not go hang out with Itachi in happy space time fun land to train.

Itachi has already had plenty of screetime. We don't need more of him. Frankly I find him a lot less cool now since he is only existing for fanservice. Zombie Itachi's role is over. A few last words to Naruto about Sasuke and bam. Let him and Kirabi go bye bye soon so Madara actually looks like he could win.

No one is going to make Naruto smarter. That's what Sakura and Shikamaru are for.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Allow me to go vomit in the corner. I would agree with the One Piece fans who bash Naruto if something so lame like this happened. It would be worse than Bleach. The last thing we need is to interrupt the entire war arc with another Naruto training session and more powerups for Naruto. How many training sessions and powerups does this idiot need? He doesn't need more sensei. He has had 8,000 of them!!! No more babysitters for Naruto! At this point Naruto has to succeed or fail on his own. If he can't win with endless powerups than he was a sucky main character to begin with. His father didn't need any sharingan and Uchiha training session to help with Madara. Neither should Naruto. Ugh.

While I completely agree on the point of another training arc being pointless, I'm also seeing a lot of mistaken assumptions here. He said nothing of giving Naruto more power (unless I misunderstood); what he did say was giving Naruto the necessary experience to consistently use the battle intelligence we know he already has (even if it disappears into thin air on occasion). And while yes Naruto doesn't ever need to be truly smart, nor does he need anymore powerups, he does need more overall experience. Whether he'll get it or not is one thing, but he could definitely use it.

Also, Minato never had to deal with Madara when he had access to a Sharingan, a Rinnegan, and a Jinchuriki version of the Six Paths. While I get what you're saying about Minato not needing some uber training to fight on equal footing with Madara, you also ignored the fact that Minato never had to deal with the things Naruto will surely deal with in the final battle. Who knows how Minato might have done against the current Madara.

Edit because you edited: Can't fully grasp the One Piece comparison since I don't follow it at all, but the point is the same. He wasn't (again, unless I misunderstood) talking about Naruto getting another uber powerup.

[ctwiggy]

It would have been cool if Nagato had used elemental techniques and some more badass stuff, but all Kabuto wanted to do was use him to get Naruto and the Kyuubi. Oh well. Did anyone notice that Kabuto looked like he wasn't the least bit worried about Nagato's techniques being dispelled and him being captured by Itachi. Is that a hint that the last coffin from back when he met with Madara contained the Sage of six paths?

[ShadowAssasin]

To the fellows up above in favor of having us sit through more training, aren't you naruto fans getting a bit tired of reading people hold his hand, giving him all the answers, and exactly what he needs? Don't you want a protagonist that is self sufficient and resourceful in this regard?

I suppose next, he'll need a sensei to appear and teach him what to do on a date? How to put on proper protection before having sex? He can even get this advice in a cute, fun filled way where its rhymed to him(by kb no doubt) --you know, similar to the way kids are taught on Sesame Street or Lamb Chop's play along. And, I can imagine during the big night while on a date, naruto does something wrong, and the girl gets angry and is aboout to leave for whatever reason, then all of a sudden his father/mother appear in his head to tell him what to do. Or better yet, the crow jumps out on the dinner table to place the poor girl under genjitsu, and have naruto start from scratch with a bit of "caw caw", as if to say thats not the way to go about it.

I think its long overdue for naruto to start coming up with his own answers for his issues instead of being spoonfed everything he needs; that actually seems pretty un-hokagelike to me. Especially after his last training arc where he apparently succeeded in the deep and spiritual task of looking inside one's self and conquering their hatred. So, I don't think he needs a sensei to teach him things like staying relatively calm in combat and analyzing the situation. Honestly, I think he should be able to handle something like that on his own at this point, and not need some fairy-god ninja to tell him what to do.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Also, Minato never had to deal with Madara when he had access to a Sharingan, a Rinnegan, and a Jinchuriki version of the Six Paths. While I get what you're saying about Minato not needing some uber training to fight on equal footing with Madara, you also ignored the fact that Minato never had to deal with the things Naruto will surely deal with in the final battle. Who knows how Minato might have done against the current Madara.

Comparing the 4th hokage to a 16 years old kid who only 4 years ago was dead last in his class, regarded as a dropout is not really a good idea. The 4th hokage by the time he had to fight Madara had a lot of experience, and that's not just some missions but real ninja war. He was already grown up, but even when he was a child he was smart, and Jiraiya said he was a genius who was much better at learning than Naruto is. When Naruto returned after the 3 years time skip he was still disappointing, weak. He had only short training sessions with Kakashi, the frogs and Bee, every time he was given some new power. But all these powers don't really mean that much when the opponents also have super-jutsu and abilities. So Naruto's powers are not only matched but in case of Madara Naruto is at a disadvantage, just look at Izanagi, it's simply godmode. So Naruto's super-powers are simply not enough if he can't use these the most effective way and if he can't make strategies and doesn't understand the powers of his enemies. Of course he can still win his fights if Kishimoto wants that to happen, but it would probably be ridiculous to have so much luck in every fight as he had against Pain. I want to see Naruto outsmarting Madara/Sasuke/Kabuto in a fight and not overpowering them with some new ridiculously magical skill that is granted to him for free. By that i mean something like the sage training, where in about 2 weeks he becomes superman who needs to ask jounins like Shikaku to hide himself because he would die if he tried to approach the battlefield.

[james0246]

I suppose next, he'll need a sensei to appear and teach him what to do on a date? How to put on proper protection before having sex? He can even get this advice in a cute, fun filled way where its rhymed to him(by kb no doubt) --you know, similar to the way kids are taught on Sesame Street or Lamb Chop's play along.

I don't remember the Sesame Street episode where Big Bird is taught how to put on a condom...must have been after my time.

But, the point is valid. My initial idea for the crow/raven was similar to what Ero-Senn1n describes (I alluded to the final battle in the movie Dark City, in which the main character is taught how use his special powers only at the climax of the film (and via an "injection" of knowledge from an outside source), but such a circumstance popping up now would be annoying and a waste of time. Naruto is strong enough, even if he is stupid, and, like others have said (Rahan in this thread), his current fights should act as training for his eventual encounter with Sasuke and Madara.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Akashin

While I completely agree on the point of another training arc being pointless, I'm also seeing a lot of mistaken assumptions here. He said nothing of giving Naruto more power (unless I misunderstood); what he did say was giving Naruto the necessary experience to consistently use the battle intelligence we know he already has (even if it disappears into thin air on occasion). And while yes Naruto doesn't ever need to be truly smart, nor does he need anymore powerups, he does need more overall experience. Whether he'll get it or not is one thing, but he could definitely use it.

Also, Minato never had to deal with Madara when he had access to a Sharingan, a Rinnegan, and a Jinchuriki version of the Six Paths. While I get what you're saying about Minato not needing some uber training to fight on equal footing with Madara, you also ignored the fact that Minato never had to deal with the things Naruto will surely deal with in the final battle. Who knows how Minato might have done against the current Madara.

Edit because you edited: Can't fully grasp the One Piece comparison since I don't follow it at all, but the point is the same. He wasn't (again, unless I misunderstood) talking about Naruto getting another uber powerup.

Having some sort of mystical training with Itachi would be a "powerup". A powerup doesn't just have to be something physical like Kyuubi or Sage Mode. Giving him years of experience and an intelligence bump because he trained in Itachi's version of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber would be a powerup.

But the main point is that he doesn't need more teachers or people holding his hand. It's been done to death with Naruto. He doesn't need more training. Not in the middle of a war when he just came off getting training with Kirabi. Either he sinks or swims.

And james is 100% right. He is getting training during these fights. That was the whole point of this war. To push the characters through fighting.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Having some sort of mystical training with Itachi would be a "powerup". A powerup doesn't just have to be something physical like Kyuubi or Sage Mode. Giving him years of experience and an intelligence bump because he trained in Itachi's version of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber would be a powerup.

But the main point is that he doesn't need more teachers or people holding his hand. It's been done to death with Naruto. He doesn't need more training. Not in the middle of a war when he just came off getting training with Kirabi. Either he sinks or swims.

And james is 100% right. He is getting training during these fights. That was the whole point of this war. To push the characters through fighting.

As I already said, I agree with you on every single point here. But your first post made it sound as though Naruto would fail as a protagonist if he couldn't take Madara the way he currently is, and while physically he's almost certainly good enough, he doesn't have the experience; that's all I was arguing. I didn't say anything about throwing him into Hyperbolic Time Chamber-esque training arc, or even another training arc at all. Just that Naruto still lacks experience that he could definitely use.

But yeah, that can easily come during the coming fights. That's more or less what I was leaning toward.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by james0246

I don't remember the Sesame Street episode where Big Bird is taught how to put on a condom...must have been after my time.

lol I stated naruto getting advice in a fun filled way similar to the way kids are taught on those children's programs (they're taught by being sung to, danced with, etc.), I didn't imply what you're saying here, but I now see how it can be misinterpreted the way it was stated.

[Ero-Senn1n]

For me it would be a bit annoying if the manga finishes with Naruto winning and he still knows only a very few jutsu and relies on his superpowers. From elemental jutsu he knows only rasenshuriken, not even the wind element is used by him, not to mention that even a jounin knows two elements. He uses variations of kage bunshin and rasengan, and some taijutsu. What he used against Pain, not counting the frogs, is rasengan variations including rasenshuriken, taijutsu and kage bunshin. Sure kyuubi mode gives him super-speed, but it's still basic taijutsu that happens to be enhanced with a demon's power. Sage mode taijutsu is enhanced basic taijutsu, sure it has some very cool effects like killing people who you didn't even hit, but again it's a powerup and not a new type of jutsu. With such a limited amount of jutsu Naruto's fights are not as interesting as it should be, it's always the repetition of kage bunshin and rasengan and taijutsu, every time a with a new upgrade but these upgrades are not enough to make things interesting in the finale. So i want a finale in this manga where Naruto could do various new jutsu, do not show him training as it was done in Sasuke's case, but show his new moves in the fights, then he will have cool fights, just like Sasuke when he fought Deidara and Itachi. For example how cool it would be if Naruto could combine his wind jutsu ability with his kyuubi and sage mode powers to be able to fly, and let him have aerial battles. Sasuke was given a hawk for free, so he can fly around, but Naruto gets nothing to fly, again that was a cool surprise in Sasuke's battle. Since now Kishimoto is centering his manga more and more around Naruto, having him as savior or something like that, it would be wise if his battles were more interesting than having rasengans and kagebunshins running around.

[Kallen4life]

wow .. and I didn't think it'd be possible for me to love Itachi even more ^^


that Totsuka is really K.O.-king .. also seems to me a strong ranged attack is a standart for Susanoo



I wonder if this means that Orochi & Nagato will chill together for eternity now ? ^^







P.S. a very trippy WMG here - if Itachi does survive the war in good health AND Naruto gives up on being Hokage (hey, they're saving the world .. Hokage seems insignificant .. maybe he'll be a wandering hermit like Jiraiya, spreading Narutism around) - Itachi could be Hokage xD .. he'd be perfect .. one can dream ..

[Hasumi]

I wonder if this means that Orochi & Nagato will chill together for eternity now ? ^^

You know, it would be kinda awkward as Orochimaru wouldn't have any arms.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

For me it would be a bit annoying if the manga finishes with Naruto winning and he still knows only a very few jutsu and relies on his superpowers. From elemental jutsu he knows only rasenshuriken, not even the wind element is used by him, not to mention that even a jounin knows two elements. He uses variations of kage bunshin and rasengan, and some taijutsu. What he used against Pain, not counting the frogs, is rasengan variations including rasenshuriken, taijutsu and kage bunshin. Sure kyuubi mode gives him super-speed, but it's still basic taijutsu that happens to be enhanced with a demon's power. Sage mode taijutsu is enhanced basic taijutsu, sure it has some very cool effects like killing people who you didn't even hit, but again it's a powerup and not a new type of jutsu. With such a limited amount of jutsu Naruto's fights are not as interesting as it should be, it's always the repetition of kage bunshin and rasengan and taijutsu, every time a with a new upgrade but these upgrades are not enough to make things interesting in the finale. So i want a finale in this manga where Naruto could do various new jutsu, do not show him training as it was done in Sasuke's case, but show his new moves in the fights, then he will have cool fights, just like Sasuke when he fought Deidara and Itachi. For example how cool it would be if Naruto could combine his wind jutsu ability with his kyuubi and sage mode powers to be able to fly, and let him have aerial battles. Sasuke was given a hawk for free, so he can fly around, but Naruto gets nothing to fly, again that was a cool surprise in Sasuke's battle. Since now Kishimoto is centering his manga more and more around Naruto, having him as savior or something like that, it would be wise if his battles were more interesting than having rasengans and kagebunshins running around.

I really don't need Naruto to have 100 different jutsu. That's not his character. Five years ago we learned he had wind natured chakra. What did he do with that? Make another rasengan. That is what he does. That should of clued fans in that he wasn't going to have a lot of techniques. It is rasengan and mass shadow clone for him.

And no, Naruto doesn't need to fly. I just had a horrible thought about Naruto and Sasuke floating in the air and shooting ki blasts at each other.

Naruto has been given endless power. He has mastered Sage Mode. Kyuubi Mode makes him the fastest character alive and a living battery. If he needs anymore then Kishi is at fault here. There are only so many teachers and training sessions you can use before you make the character look like an ineffective ninny.

If you are complaining about it not being believable if Naruto wins, and becomes Kage of Kages because of his lack of abilities and intelligence, than that is understandable. But again that is Kishi's fault. Naruto just came off a training session with yet another teacher. You can't pause the war, reset, and improve Naruto now. It is just going to make things much worse. Naruto should improve during the war. But he is never going to be the cool guy you want.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

P.S. a very trippy WMG here - if Itachi does survive the war in good health AND Naruto gives up on being Hokage (hey, they're saving the world .. Hokage seems insignificant .. maybe he'll be a wandering hermit like Jiraiya, spreading Narutism around) - Itachi could be Hokage xD .. he'd be perfect .. one can dream ..

I know you are just wild mass guessing and dreaming, but Itachi is d-e-a-d dead. He can't survive, nor does he want to exist as a zombie. All the zombies want is to rest in peace. Edo Tensei is considered an evil technique because it disturbs the natural order. Once Kabuto is forced to cancel the justu, Itachi and the others that were sealed will disappear. Itachi might not even last much longer since he fulfilled his role and Naruto can't have two babysitters with him. So no, we are not going to have Zombie Hokage. Naruto or someone else will be Hokage.

That's why Nagato doesn't have to worry about hanging with Orochimaru for eternity in a genjustu. The ET will be canceled.

[Shining Celebi]

I don't think it would make sense of those souls sealed away are freed once Edo Tensei is canceled. That seems to break the entire purpose of a seal. We also already know that, for example, the First and Second really are trapped by their seal in the Death God and cannot be resummoned, although one could argue that ET was never canceled. The Sword of Totsuka at least should work like the Shinigami seals, even if for some reason the other "regular" seals don't.

Indeed, I think Kabuto may not even be able to cancel Itachi's ET anymore. It may be that the control tag is what enables Kabuto to dissolve the summon, and Itachi has overwritten his. After all, it doesn't make sense that Kabuto would allow Itachi to interfere with his plans so drastically when all he has to do is make a hand seal and end it. Of course I don't think Itachi will stick around, he can leave himself when he's ready, and he will.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

I don't think it would make sense of those souls sealed away are freed once Edo Tensei is canceled. That seems to break the entire purpose of a seal. We also already know that, for example, the First and Second really are trapped by their seal in the Death God and cannot be resummoned, although one could argue that ET was never canceled. The Sword of Totsuka at least should work like the Shinigami seals, even if for some reason the other "regular" seals don't.

Indeed, I think Kabuto may not even be able to cancel Itachi's ET anymore. It may be that the control tag is what enables Kabuto to dissolve the summon, and Itachi has overwritten his. After all, it doesn't make sense that Kabuto would allow Itachi to interfere with his plans so drastically when all he has to do is make a hand seal and end it. Of course I don't think Itachi will stick around, he can leave himself when he's ready, and he will.

Hashirama and Tobirama can be explained by Orochimaru never canceling ET. We now know that ET can only be broken by making the user undo the jutsu. Even the user's death doesn't stop ET. So that is what they are stuck in the death god.

While Kabuto cannot control or summon Itachi, he is only "living" through Kabuto's Edo Tensei. Outside of Sasori and Sai's brother, all the other zombies are still "alive" and are only being stopped by being immobilized and sealed. In order to stop them permanently, Kabuto has to cancel the jutsu. Kabuto could cancel Itachi's ET. But he might not be able to target a specific zombie. If he cancels one ET, he probably cancels them all. Including the 6th coffin aka his trump card. So he has to put up with Itachi.

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The problem is not with super-powers, the problem is that Naruto must be smart and not panic or rage when fighting

And here I thought thats what that whole thing about, you know "conquering his hatred" would solve. Naruto started smartening up since he fought Kakazu. He''ll no doubt get even better at it throughout this arc as he has been throughout the series. He definitely doesn't need to be trained by Itachi in his tsukuyomi for this, thats just nonsense.

he must always choose the best option or Madara, Sasuke or Kabuto will kill him, we have seen that even one moment of stupidity can kill him when the opponent is smart, experienced and goes for the kill.

Fortunately, Naruto has enough ridiculous power to afford making some mistakes. We are of course talking about the guy who was impaled with a chakra sword, and he simply removed the chakra sword, and healed himself -- while still standing... Just by getting angry. Naruto might not be the most intelligent guy around, but he is smart enough to make good use of what he has.

So it's not that Itachi has to teach him some super-jutsu, he needs to teach him how to effectively fight the EMS, how to seal a zombie, what special powers Madara can have (for example Izanagi).

Whats really interesting here is that you stated it would be annoying if Naruto never defeated a Pein-level opponent "all by himself", but if he is given extensive aid in fighting the EMS as you suggest here, he can't really be given full credit in defeating it, "all by himself" since he would be given significant information and such prior to the fight (as well as that little crow which will no doubt come in handy somehow).

At Naruto's current level in power, he would surely steamroll through the opposition if he had valuable info on them (which is probably what you want), which wouldn't make for a terribly interesting fight. I'd say watching him struggle and figure things out on his own would be a much better performance... Not flying around in the air and firing off massive aerial attacks, and having the answer for everything because he was trained to fight it before he even stepped in the battle.

This should be an overall training, we have seen how Jiraiya was teaching Naruto overall skills like fighting against genjutsu, but we see that Naruto on his current level can't do anything against EMS genjutsu that was able to trick even the super-experienced Danzou.

Naruto has already had overall training, specialized training, and even more specialized training, you name it. He needs to put everything to use now, and gain the general experience you're referring via real-world senarios and battles. The senario of Itachi training him and "giving" him real-world experience via tsukuyomi sounds incredibly cheesy and is not even necessary at this point. Jiraiya wasn't exactly the best at defending genjitsu either, but was still a beast -- noone has to be perfect. In the end, he fought a powerful opponent and wasn't even killed by genjitsu, so it really doesn't matter much.

What we have seen here from Itachi is actually the opposite of what you suggested: Itachi did teach Naruto that every jutsu/ability has a weakness which means we can have real ninja fights from Naruto instead of just using some super-jutsu allowed by his monster-level-abilities (kyuubi mode, sage mode).

Firstly, I am highly doubtful that Naruto didn't know about every jutsu having a weakness before this point in the story, honestly that sounds like basic training. Secondly, it really doesnt sound like you are after a "real", competitive ninja battle, what with your suggestions of Naruto being given even more power via wide array of battle techniques, the ability to fly, and massive aerial attacks... A competitive fight in my opinion would be both high level opponents walking in to the fight not knowing much about each other and adapting ot the situation. Not someone being trained for the techniques the other ninja has, and therefore having an edge --especailly when the other ninja doesn't even know powerful he's become at this point... Not very exciting.

[Ero-Senn1n]

So, before this chapter i wouldn't have said these things, but this chapter was kinda strange in many ways, so that's why i took the events as a hint about Naruto. First we have Naruto who is even faster than the raikage getting caught by the normal speed Nagato. Then we have Naruto panic two times against someone whose powers should mostly be known to him, first time he uses a ueseless jutsu and the second time he has no idea what to do despite sage mode and kyuubi mode powers (he could have even summoned gamabunta or something like that, which doesn't need kyuubi or sage mode). But even more interesting is that the first time he panics he asks Nagato to teach him, and the second time Itachi is actually teaching him about what a good ninja would do in that situation. I think the chapter hinted that even if Naruto has all the super-powers to fight Madara he doesn't seem to be ready to fight secret powers of sharingan and rinnegan that he doesn't know anything about. I really want Naruto to fight the smart way, for me the last Naruto vs Sasuke fight at the valley of the end was crap, it was a show of genetic and monster powers, boring.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

And here I thought thats what that whole thing about, you know "conquering his hatred" would solve.

It has nothing to do with his fighting abilities, that was about him hating the people because how they treated him, the lack of parental love as he grew up, and the lack of self confidence.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Fortunately, Naruto has enough ridiculous power to afford making some mistakes.

Wasn't it this chapter that showed us that one mistake gets him killed? Didn't you see that without Itachi's help he would have been dead in seconds? It was one mistake that ended in Nagato capturing him. BTW it seems in kyuubi mode he couldn't feel the chakra of Nagato's invisible summon, so he still can't combine sage and kyuubi mode, or this was just a plot hole.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

We are of course talking about the guy who was impaled with a chakra sword, and he simply removed the chakra sword, and healed himself -- while still standing...

Against an exhausted Nagato who didn't want to kill him. Next time is EMS-Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Whats really interesting here is that you stated it would be annoying if Naruto never defeated a Pein-level opponent "all by himself", but if he is given extensive aid in fighting the EMS as you suggest here, he can't really be given full credit in defeating it, "all by himself" since he would be given significant information and such prior to the fight (as well as that little crow which will no doubt come in handy somehow).

Training makes him more experienced and stronger, knowledge makes him smarter. So what part of these features is not Naruto's own power? It's like saying that just because you learned something at the school it's not your knowledge.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

At Naruto's current level in power, he would surely steamroll through the opposition if he had valuable info on them (which is probably what you want), which wouldn't make for a terribly interesting fight. I'd say watching him struggle and figure things out on his own would be a much better performance... Not flying around in the air and firing off massive aerial attacks, and having the answer for everything because he was trained to fight it before he even stepped in the battle.

You are severely underestimating his opponents, here Kabuto would have killed Naruto and Bee easily had it not been for Itachi's gift. Madara has both the 6 rinnegan zombies, the huge monster which has 7 demons inside of it, the sharingan eye, and he can be in godmode using Izanagi. Sasuke has EMS which makes him even more powerful than he was against Danzou, Sasuke can fly, he can use advanced genjutsu (remember raikage's genjutsu specialist guy being beaten in an instant?), he has Kirin which is faster than Naruto, unknown susano powers, amaterasu, and all the minor jutsu we have seen. Sure Kishimoto can make Naruto win in a dumb way, by luck, with the sacrifice of others, using magical upgrades, but i would prefer Naruto being smart enough to not realy on Kishimoto's magical assistance. To give a recent example of such magical assistance: Naruto was not able to escape from the raikage, but at a certain point in time he just magically becomes faster than raikage. Sure this happened many times in this manga, but i hope that the last fights won't be all about such plot holes.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Jiraiya wasn't exactly the best at defending genjitsu either, but was still a beast -- noone has to be perfect. In the end, he fought a powerful opponent and wasn't even killed by genjitsu, so it really doesn't matter much.

Kishimoto just made Pain/Nagato a ninja that does not use genjutsu, lucky for Jiraiya and Naruto. But as you know the Uchiha's most feared power is genjutsu, that's what they do best compared to everybody else. And it happens that Naruto's biggest weakness is genjutsu. Sure he can rely on the crow now, but that just doesn't seem enough, smart guys like Madara and Sasuke would realize soon that they must get rid of the crow.

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

Firstly, I am highly doubtful that Naruto didn't know about every jutsu having a weakness before this point in the story, honestly that sounds like basic training. Secondly, it really doesnt sound like you are after a "real", competitive ninja battle, what with your suggestions of Naruto being given even more power via wide array of battle techniques, the ability to fly, and massive aerial attacks... A competitive fight in my opinion would be both high level opponents walking in to the fight not knowing much about each other and adapting ot the situation. Not someone being trained for the techniques the other ninja has, and therefore having an edge --especailly when the other ninja doesn't even know powerful he's become at this point... Not very exciting.

It's both more basic level jutsu and better thinking. This is beyond kage level, so wind element abilities, summons, etc. are basic level jutsu compared to rasenshuriken and such. But these basic level jutsu can help making better tactics, for example take Sasuke or Kakashi, they often use basic level jutsu in their tactics to prepare for the most effective use of their jutsu. Some examples: Sasuke using fireballs to create thunder clouds, he prepared for Kirin using basic fire jutsu. Kakashi using earth jutsu to raise a wall behind Pain, he prepared for the use of raikiri on a trapped Pain. Naruto used kage bunshins for this purpose, to learn about Kakuzu, to trick Kakuzu about his position, etc. But i think the kage bunshin tricks are getting old and thus they are boring, Naruto needs other helper jutsus to do his tricks.

BTW i think that Itachi training Naruto has like 5% chance of happening, it's 95% that Itachi just tells some final words to Naruto and then disappears. In my opinion the latter is boring and too evident, but it seems the majority wants it this way so i can understand

[Lunarskylar]

i don't see nagato being done yet to get honest, (although kishi could easily prove me wrong)
but the fact that itachi is giving nagato tiem to speak and already told him "i'm about to seal you" violates the law of "once you tell your plan it will fail" can't rmb what trope it is

so just as itachi stabs, all kabuto really needs to do is unsummon nagato and he has his zombie still

actually im hoping that kabuto was hoping for itachi to use the sword, just so he could some how use it to reclaim orochimaru's soul. and bring back oro (and of course betray him and make him a zombie too, that seems typical)

or even better oro would come back, rip off his face, reveal aizen underneath and... well you know the catchphrase

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Lunarskylar

i don't see nagato being done yet to get honest, (although kishi could easily prove me wrong)
but the fact that itachi is giving nagato tiem to speak and already told him "i'm about to seal you" violates the law of "once you tell your plan it will fail" can't rmb what trope it is

so just as itachi stabs, all kabuto really needs to do is unsummon nagato and he has his zombie still

actually im hoping that kabuto was hoping for itachi to use the sword, just so he could some how use it to reclaim orochimaru's soul. and bring back oro (and of course betray him and make him a zombie too, that seems typical)

or even better oro would come back, rip off his face, reveal aizen underneath and... well you know the catchphrase

The sword thing might actually happen, it all seems awfully easy for Itachi to just waltz over both Kabuto and Nagato without a bit of difficulty. Would also serve for a great plot twist and another round of fanservice if Orochimaru comes back.