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Old 2011-08-19, 01:45   Link #61
paradox13
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Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are roughly equal in strength, but they since they will probably not fight each other, we won't know who is stronger.
Agreed, although I think Luffy is slightly above Zoro and Sanji.

People overrate Zoro because he is cool and uses swords.

And swords are cool.

So thats double the coolness!
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Old 2011-08-19, 01:52   Link #62
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Both Sanji and Zorro are different kinds of first mates. Zorro is the typical 2nd in strength or even stronger than captain kind. Sanji is the advisor/strategist aspect.

Anyway, any one else feels let down by zorro's new attack? Seems like just a standard hurricane attack from last time that lingers a little longer. Unless it is much stronger or can really last "forever" I'm not too impressed. This is especially after he 1hko-ed pre-drugged Hodi, and he is now holding 3 swords and using his bandana. I expected something bigger or more forceful.
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Old 2011-08-19, 04:28   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Anyway, any one else feels let down by zorro's new attack? Seems like just a standard hurricane attack from last time that lingers a little longer. Unless it is much stronger or can really last "forever" I'm not too impressed. This is especially after he 1hko-ed pre-drugged Hodi, and he is now holding 3 swords and using his bandana. I expected something bigger or more forceful.
That's because so far they're not getting serious yet. They even have the time to joke around. They don't take 50,000 Hodi's henchmen as serious threat
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Old 2011-08-19, 05:42   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Both Sanji and Zorro are different kinds of first mates. Zorro is the typical 2nd in strength or even stronger than captain kind. Sanji is the advisor/strategist aspect.
Well I think, Zoro would be first mate & Sanji 2nd ?
Thats how teh ranking is in there.
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Old 2011-08-19, 06:17   Link #65
grey_1960
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Originally Posted by The_Three_Kings View Post
While your definition of first mate is mostly correct, it is often a subject of debate whether or not Zoro can be considered first mate. He is never explicitly stated to be first mate, but referred to as the "swordsman." Even in Strong World, where the introduction sequence listed the roles of the Straw Hats, Zoro's was "swordsman." Since Oda was the one to write the movie itself, it is safe to say that he himself considers Zoro as the "swordsman" or a "fighter" rather than "first mate." (Kind've like Killer is to the Kid Pirates). This could possibly be because Luffy, as a captain, views his crewmates equally. He does not, for example, have more trust in Zoro than he does in Usopp. It is also impossible to say if Rayleigh ever had to step in for Roger, since there is no evidence to support this, though I do think it could be plausible.

Of course Zoro is different from the crew; he is consistently shown to be monstrously strong and have a incredible endurance to pain. His insight at Water 7 about Usopp does not necessarily point to him being first mate however. What it does show is that he believes in honor. Also, at Thriller Bark, I bet that every single crew mate would not hesitate in the slightest to give their life up for Luffy. Luffy is the one who saved them and brought them on the adventure in the first place. Whether or not they would survive Kuma's ordeal is a different matter altogether. I personally believe Zoro did not survive just because of his inhuman stamina, but because of his own will to live. Each of the Straw Hats have demonstrated that they are very determined and have a strong will, so it is debatable to say that Nami wouldn't have survived if she was in Zoro's place.

As another note on this, Sanji's role in the crew is very similar to Zoro's. While they are completely different in their respective jobs, they hold a similar set of values. At Water 7 for example, Sanji was the first to say that Zoro was right, and he would have gladly taken Luffy's place at Thriller Bark if he hadn't been knocked out by Zoro. I do not agree with the theory that since Zoro is "first mate" he has to be incredibly strong and almost equal to the captain. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are roughly equal in strength, but they since they will probably not fight each other, we won't know who is stronger.
"Pure Guts aren’t enough Straw Hat Luffy... If you don’t have the Strength there are things you can’t save no matter how you try." ~ Kizaru
Nami would not have been able to take Zoro’s place at all during Thriller Bark. Nami was knocked out. Second Will alone does not guarantee victory. Kizaru made that clear to Luffy twice. Once in Saboady and the second at Marine Ford. Brooks faked his death because he was scared. Robbin, Franky, Chopper, Usopp were also knocked out. Sanji and Zoro were conscious at the time Kuma made the offer. What Kuma offered to Zoro was not about just will, but all the pain, fatigue, and suffering that Luffy had accumulated through out the battle with Moria. Zoro also had his wounds has well. This does not just require will alone but of physical strength. Will alone does not guarantee that you will be able to defeat your enemy or accomplish the mission. You have to be strong enough has well. Nami could never take the pain and abuse that Zoro takes. Just look at every battle Nami and Zoro have been in.

Roles
If you look at many of the first mate that I have named in my previous post you will notice they are all strong fighters. If the patterns stay consistent then i do not see any of the Straw Hats except for Zoro being the First Mate. Pound for Pound I believe if Luffy were to ever fall or suffer set backs Zoro would be the man to watch over Luffy and the crew until he recovers.

Rayleigh and Rogers
Your right that there is no evidence to support Rayleigh stepping in for Rogers. But their is no evidence saying he didn’t either.

Different Trust
Cook is trusted to feed the crew, Navigator is trusted to gauge the weather and plot the course, Doctor is trusted care for the crew during ill times, Musician is trusted to provide music for entertainment, and the Ships carpenter is trusted to maintain the ship in good order. The First mate is trusted to perform the role of the captain if he is incapable. Just look at luffy qualities like leadership, strength, will, reasoning, and fighting capabilities. Which crew do you think is similar in those qualities. The question is not about just trust alone but who you can trust to fill the title Captain should something happen? For me Zoro has more in common with Luffy then any other crew member. He is the man who does not just talk but delivers.
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Old 2011-08-19, 08:08   Link #66
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I'm not a shipper, but after seeing Robin do that giant leg attack and thinking about Luffy's Gear Third...
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Old 2011-08-19, 08:59   Link #67
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Zoro said it himself back in Water 7 arc that he wouldn't follow a captain who is weaker than himself. Which pretty much confirms that Luffy has always been and always will be stronger than Zoro. I don't get why you debate over which is the 1st mate, Zoro or Sanji though. Luffy recruited Zoro to be the 1st mate and that's that.
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Old 2011-08-19, 09:41   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Which is why i said, when he finally resurface and eventually he will. The WG will just accuse Moria of running away during the WB battle and pretending to be dead.

But..... it still wouldn't make much sense to raise his price since he was originally supposed to be dead to begin with. The way I see it, if the WG got wind of Moria's return they'd most likely deal with him as swiftly as possible so they wouldn't alert the public to another of their blunders (though I don't think they'd bother sending Dofla to finish the job a second time since he didn't really give a crap about Moria's escape the first time around).




Anyways, going back to the current battle, I still have a feeling that Jinbei will be the first to take on Hody, not Luffy. I'm guessing that Luffy will deal with the doomsday weapon that Decken threw at the island while the former warlord deals with 'roid-raged coup leader (and most likely loses). Maybe some of the other Straw-Hats will help Luffy stop Noah while some others stay behind to take on the officers, I dunno. All I do know is that it's gonna take some serious power to stop that huge ark.....



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Originally Posted by Trax View Post
Maybe Perona will want to go live there.

I don't think Wapol has "cute" zombie lackies serving under him, though.
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Old 2011-08-19, 11:10   Link #69
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Maybe Surume+Luffy combo vs the Noah while Jinbe curbstomps Hody?
Luffy doesn't really HAVE to be the one to beat Hody, it would be cool if Jinbe actually beats him. Hell he proved that he can even effortlessly stop Hody's water shot.
There's 5 officers and 8 strawhats, if we go into 1-on-1 battles then we have 3 left. The three left could actually be the ones in the tank who eliminate the rest of the 5k grunts.
Either that or the 3 left handle Noah with Luffy. If so then I believe that at least Robin would be pretty useful with her giant limbs.

I don't know why but I suddenly pictured Surume doing a gatling with all its tentacles, Luffy on top of him doing a Jet Giant Gatling, Robin doing her own gatling style with three or four giant arms and Ussop using a giant Boxing plant. All at the same time, at directed at Noah...

I think I would go blind with awesomeness if such a thing happened.
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Old 2011-08-19, 12:15   Link #70
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
"Pure Guts arenít enough Straw Hat Luffy... If you donít have the Strength there are things you canít save no matter how you try." ~ Kizaru
Nami would not have been able to take Zoroís place at all during Thriller Bark. Nami was knocked out. Second Will alone does not guarantee victory. Kizaru made that clear to Luffy twice. Once in Saboady and the second at Marine Ford. Brooks faked his death because he was scared. Robbin, Franky, Chopper, Usopp were also knocked out. Sanji and Zoro were conscious at the time Kuma made the offer. What Kuma offered to Zoro was not about just will, but all the pain, fatigue, and suffering that Luffy had accumulated through out the battle with Moria. Zoro also had his wounds has well. This does not just require will alone but of physical strength. Will alone does not guarantee that you will be able to defeat your enemy or accomplish the mission. You have to be strong enough has well. Nami could never take the pain and abuse that Zoro takes. Just look at every battle Nami and Zoro have been in.

Roles
If you look at many of the first mate that I have named in my previous post you will notice they are all strong fighters. If the patterns stay consistent then i do not see any of the Straw Hats except for Zoro being the First Mate. Pound for Pound I believe if Luffy were to ever fall or suffer set backs Zoro would be the man to watch over Luffy and the crew until he recovers.

Rayleigh and Rogers
Your right that there is no evidence to support Rayleigh stepping in for Rogers. But their is no evidence saying he didnít either.

Different Trust
Cook is trusted to feed the crew, Navigator is trusted to gauge the weather and plot the course, Doctor is trusted care for the crew during ill times, Musician is trusted to provide music for entertainment, and the Ships carpenter is trusted to maintain the ship in good order. The First mate is trusted to perform the role of the captain if he is incapable. Just look at luffy qualities like leadership, strength, will, reasoning, and fighting capabilities. Which crew do you think is similar in those qualities. The question is not about just trust alone but who you can trust to fill the title Captain should something happen? For me Zoro has more in common with Luffy then any other crew member. He is the man who does not just talk but delivers.
- My point about Nami was purely theoretical. Obviously she was knocked out and unconscious, but what I was suggesting that if she was the only one awake, she would have done what Zoro had done. I am not saying that Nami is anywhere near Zoro in strength, nor am I saying that willpower is enough to win a battle. I just believe that will was a factor to why Zoro survived what Kuma put him through, because Kuma even said that with Zoro's injuries added on top of Luffy's pain, he would surely die. And what about Sanji? Sanji and Zoro are approximately equal, and I believe he would have survived too. Does that mean Sanji is first mate? No, because surviving Kuma's trial does not prove anything other than strength and will.

- True, every first mate in the series has been strong. But that does not mean Zoro is first mate. Again, I will bring up Sanji, since he is the best example. Zoro and Sanji are consistently shown to be on mostly the same level, perhaps Zoro is slightly stronger. But again, that does not prove that either of them is first mate.

- Zoro having similar qualities with Luffy has nothing at all with his ability to be a captain. Usopp and Chopper have similar qualities to Luffy. Does that mean they would be good captains? Robin is completely different from Luffy. Does that mean she would be a bad captain? No, it doesn't. Oda never mentions at all that Zoro is the first mate and refers to him as the swordsman time and time again. However, he has referred to Rayleigh and Marco as first mates, so he is obviously calling Zoro "swordsman" for a reason.

The examples you have just show that Zoro is strong, it does not show he is first mate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
Zoro said it himself back in Water 7 arc that he wouldn't follow a captain who is weaker than himself. Which pretty much confirms that Luffy has always been and always will be stronger than Zoro. I don't get why you debate over which is the 1st mate, Zoro or Sanji though. Luffy recruited Zoro to be the 1st mate and that's that.
Yes, I also agree with the theory that as captain, Luffy has to be stronger than his crew. But it is not stated anywhere that Zoro is first mate.
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Old 2011-08-19, 12:27   Link #71
Randrak42
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Not about the recent chapter but about the conversation above.

While I loved Zoro's epic moment when he took in Luffy's pain and whatnot, yet didn't die or even lose consciousness, I still believe it would have been much better and "realistic" if both Zoro and Sanji took in Luffy's pain.
Again I love Zoro (much more than Sanji) but they were already heavily injured and Zoro took in pain and damage that was enough to knock Luffy out...Luffy, the guy that can take endless amount of punishment. That on top of the injuries from his own battle should have killed Zoro.

I know that Kuma said the same thing and that Zoro survived through his amazing will power and whatnot...but I much rather have Luffy's pain split into the top two people and have them survive than having Oda simply Deus Ex Machina the event just to give Zoro the badass medal and still keep him.
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Old 2011-08-19, 13:42   Link #72
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Originally Posted by The_Three_Kings View Post
However, he has referred to Rayleigh and Marco as first mates, so he is obviously calling Zoro "swordsman" for a reason.
Actually, Marco has never been referred to as WB's first mate; many people infer that just because he's the 1st Division Commander of the WB pirates. Fact of the matter is that all of the division commanders have equal authority/standing in the crew.
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Old 2011-08-19, 15:09   Link #73
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Anyone notice Sanji used Iva's spectrum move?

And

"he was the first Fishman to serve as a Shichibukai..."

which means that there is probably another Fishman serving as Shichibukai now..

Interesting chapter.

Wow didnt notice that at all . What if Arlong became the new Shichibukai ?. I think its a possibility if there is another fishman Shichibukai.
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Old 2011-08-19, 17:23   Link #74
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Originally Posted by The_Three_Kings View Post
- My point about Nami was purely theoretical. Obviously she was knocked out and unconscious, but what I was suggesting that if she was the only one awake, she would have done what Zoro had done. I am not saying that Nami is anywhere near Zoro in strength, nor am I saying that willpower is enough to win a battle. I just believe that will was a factor to why Zoro survived what Kuma put him through, because Kuma even said that with Zoro's injuries added on top of Luffy's pain, he would surely die. And what about Sanji? Sanji and Zoro are approximately equal, and I believe he would have survived too. Does that mean Sanji is first mate? No, because surviving Kuma's trial does not prove anything other than strength and will.

- True, every first mate in the series has been strong. But that does not mean Zoro is first mate. Again, I will bring up Sanji, since he is the best example. Zoro and Sanji are consistently shown to be on mostly the same level, perhaps Zoro is slightly stronger. But again, that does not prove that either of them is first mate.

- Zoro having similar qualities with Luffy has nothing at all with his ability to be a captain. Usopp and Chopper have similar qualities to Luffy. Does that mean they would be good captains? Robin is completely different from Luffy. Does that mean she would be a bad captain? No, it doesn't. Oda never mentions at all that Zoro is the first mate and refers to him as the swordsman time and time again. However, he has referred to Rayleigh and Marco as first mates, so he is obviously calling Zoro "swordsman" for a reason.

The examples you have just show that Zoro is strong, it does not show he is first mate.
Qualities and views
Those qualities that I mentioned above are the reasons the Straw Hats are were they are today. The lives the Straw Hats have chosen to live are the lives of a Pirate. In a Pirate World only the strong survive and the weak perish. Now you talk about Usopp and Chopper having similar qualities to Luffy. What qualities are they? Are those qualities of a captain or qualities of close friends? Sanji is powerful but his role I believe has always been the cook. To me Sanji as always been the third strongest in the Monster trio. Oda may not say things but sometimes it pretty obvious of what somethings are. It like Admiral Akainu's Devil Fruit the Magu Magu No Mi. For a while Oda never gave the name. But its pretty obvious what the name would be before he even revealed it. Oda has built Zoro more towards the role of First mate then anyone else in the Straw Hat crew. Second look at how the one piece Universe perceives and treats Zoro.

Chapter 499 Page 16
[snip]
You can call this a mistranslation but the word first mate that Urouge uses is also in English version of One piece Volume 51 that is the printed version being sold in the U.S.

Last edited by james0246; 2011-08-19 at 17:50. Reason: please do not link to sites that provide licensed materials...
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Old 2011-08-19, 21:40   Link #75
The_Three_Kings
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Qualities and views
Those qualities that I mentioned above are the reasons the Straw Hats are were they are today. The lives the Straw Hats have chosen to live are the lives of a Pirate. In a Pirate World only the strong survive and the weak perish. Now you talk about Usopp and Chopper having similar qualities to Luffy. What qualities are they? Are those qualities of a captain or qualities of close friends? Sanji is powerful but his role I believe has always been the cook. To me Sanji as always been the third strongest in the Monster trio. Oda may not say things but sometimes it pretty obvious of what somethings are. It like Admiral Akainu's Devil Fruit the Magu Magu No Mi. For a while Oda never gave the name. But its pretty obvious what the name would be before he even revealed it. Oda has built Zoro more towards the role of First mate then anyone else in the Straw Hat crew. Second look at how the one piece Universe perceives and treats Zoro.

Chapter 499 Page 16
[snip]
You can call this a mistranslation but the word first mate that Urouge uses is also in English version of One piece Volume 51 that is the printed version being sold in the U.S.
Knowing that Akainu's fruit was the Magu Magu no Mi before Oda revealed it is completely different from Zoro being first mate. The name of Akainu's fruit was never revealed to us in the manga, while Zoro is called the "swordsman" over and over again by Oda. What I'm saying is that Oda has a reason for calling Zoro "swordsman" and not "first mate." Therefore, it is inaccurate to refer to Zoro as first mate.

As for the translation, I checked the raw and it does not translate into "first mate." It is a mistranslation and it actually says something around "the second" or "number two" , which of course makes no sense in English.
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Old 2011-08-19, 23:25   Link #76
Bonta Kun
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Originally Posted by DeadBonesDooM View Post
Well I think, Zoro would be first mate & Sanji 2nd ?
Thats how teh ranking is in there.
I believe the rankings are

Zoro = Pirate hunter Zoro, Monkey D Luffy Underling.

Sanji = Pirate A...or B

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Old 2011-08-20, 01:39   Link #77
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After following this debate for awhile, I've come to the conclusion that the only way "first" and Zoro come together is that he was Luffy's first recruit.
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Old 2011-08-20, 02:16   Link #78
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Zoro is definitely stronger than Sanji,,

Zoro can also defeat luffy since he is using swords
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Old 2011-08-20, 02:19   Link #79
paradox13
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Luffy recruited Zoro to be the 1st mate and that's that.
No he didn't.

Way to go making things up.

Quote:
Zoro is definitely stronger than Sanji,,

Zoro can also defeat luffy since he is using swords
No he isn't, and we don't know whether or not he can either.

...

Why do people like making things up so much?

Quote:
To me Sanji as always been the third strongest in the Monster trio.
You are entitled to your opinion, but please do not pass opinion off as fact.

Quote:
Second look at how the one piece Universe perceives and treats Zoro.
Zoro is a badass. No one is disputing this.

People in the One Piece universe also mistook Zoro to be captain rather than Luffy.

But he wasn't.

And there is no evidence indicating that Sanji isn't every bit as strong as Zoro, and 0 evidence indicating that Zoro is first mate either.
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Old 2011-08-20, 03:47   Link #80
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I agree, there is no direct evidence in manga that anyone of the trio is stronger than another. And since they are not fighting each other, we'll never know. And even if they do fight each other, the possibility or match up advantage exists (ie, sword .v.s rubber, Sanji no using hands, etc.)

However I'll say that circumstantial evidents do seem to show (or at least portray) that Sanji to be the weakest of the three, but again, those are facts, just opinions.

As for Zoro being Firstmate, as paradox13 said, there is zero evidence to support that. The only thing goes in Zoro's favor is that he didn't have a defined title on the ship other than "Combatant". Which is the role he was given in data books along with "Swordsman." And that in W7, he was the one that fill the role during Ussop's incident. Granted, since W7 Zoro has started to take a more proactive role in directing crew's action when Luffy is not around. Maybe Oda is growing Zoro into Firstmate, but right now, Zoro is NOT a Firstmate, at least not yet.

Keep in mind that Oda has show great care with the title Firstmate, even went as far as making sure Rayleigh was referred as such in anime flashback and Marco was not referred to that title in the Green Data Book (Only stated that he is possible successor and filling the role of taking command when needed).
And I thought that in one of the SBS he mentioned that Firstmate is an important title that needs to be earned... (Can't exactly remember where I read it, either in data books or SBS)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
Zoro is definitely stronger than Sanji,,
Not a fact, though there are circumstantial evidence that you "might" be able to use to argue that point. Such as so far Zoro always matches up with the strongest non-Final Boss. Sanji doesn't use weapon, and Luffy's DF can give him defensive advantage against Sanji. Or that in this chapter we've seen Diable Jambe's power-up move but yet to see Zoro's Ashura, non-concrete stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
Zoro can also defeat luffy since he is using swords
That is one thing we do know that is bullshit. The one time Luffy and Zoro seriously fought each other ends up to be evenly matched. If anything, you an argue Luffy is stronger because Zoro has swords, but than again, Luffy has DF...



Quote:
Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
I'm not a shipper, but after seeing Robin do that giant leg attack and thinking about Luffy's Gear Third...
Great minds think alike, that's why I mentioned that Dojin Circles should have a field day with this (as if the DF of those two haven't be played with enough)
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