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Old 2012-03-09, 18:15   Link #941
Elestia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Logic can not be proven wrong in fiction until it's complete. Nonsense can easily become fact.

If it's just the style that you don't like... well that's fine then.

Sorry, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. Good luck with that, though.
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Last edited by Elestia; 2012-03-09 at 18:31.
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Old 2012-03-09, 18:25   Link #942
dan-heron
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holding your breath? you sure you got the right thread?

Anyway, preview time

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
http://youtu.be/NP-IzdX6vRg
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:20   Link #943
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
No, this makes no sense. If Dead Master died (and Yomi forgot about Mato) Mato would have gone more crazy anyway (even if Yuu didn't send her to the other world) and BRS would have become more powerful and violent.
I disagree here. The degree of mental stability displayed by Mato vs. i.e. Yomi and Kagari are on completely different levels. Beyond that, Yomi only got so bad because Saya was actively trying to aggravate her insecurities--precisely what she wouldn't do to Mato, because she has no reason to want BRS to become stronger.

Mato would have been troubled by the disappearance of Yomi's memories, obviously, but not to anywhere near the levels required for IBRS's appearance. In fact, Saya would've probably even begun acting like a proper counsellor to try to reduce/control Mato's pain in order to prevent that possibility.

The thing which screwed Saya's plan up here was STR (real-world Yuu). Yuu intentionally wanted to awaken IBRS. If we take her words from the previous episode for truth, she thinks that the existence of the otherworld as a way for girls to escape from their pain is wrong and perhaps wants to get rid of it (and Mato agrees with her, although in a way STR was using her). STR's goal might be in opposition to Saya in that she wants to return the real Yuu (trapped in STR's otherworld body) into reality, whereas Saya wants to fulfill her promise to Yuu and allow her to stay there forever, protecting her as BGS. Their common point is that both of them care for Yuu and wish for her happiness.

The plot as it stands seems pretty clear and coherent to me, so I will just address the criticisms. The single point people have been raising complaining about BRS's "inconsistency" is that they didn't expect Saya to have any "good" motivations. Like, at all. Apparently they thought Saya was supposed to be a black and white, purely megalomaniacal, evil villain whose sole motivation was that she got off on little girls' suffering. And for this reason they were unable to get into Yuu and Saya's backstory.

If this is the sole point they can muster, I do have to say that the criticisms are pretty ridiculous. Saya has not suddenly become "the good guy". She is still purposely increasing and aggravating the suffering of middle school girls in order to protect someone she made an old promise to. This revelation has done nothing except to give Saya her own motivations. Even if Saya was largely portrayed as malicious previously, this development was hardly unexpected and is hardly any grounds for stating that the writing of the series as a whole is terrible.

Anyway, as a general note, I would advise people not to get too excited about ideas like "BRS is the villain" or "Saya and STR are the main characters". If this anime is true to the "core" of the BRS franchise, then the ultimate focus will still be on yuri between BRS and Dead Master (i.e. Mato and Yomi). Yuu and Saya are merely the justification for the plot; Mato, as the uninvolved party dragged into this mess, and as the main character, will have her emotional resolution completed around her relationship with Yomi and the "little bird" story.
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:34   Link #944
Sageblink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
In fact, Saya would've probably even begun acting like a proper counsellor to try to reduce/control Mato's pain in order to prevent that possibility.
I agree on everything you said above except that one fact.
Why the hell did she try to scare Mato by choking her ?
It's :
1 - disturbing as hell
2 - not helping that much
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:35   Link #945
vaden
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On a less serious note, I can't have been the only person who saw the scene where the otherworld characters fall into the ground about 18 minutes in, with all the brightly-colored flares emanating from the center of the screen, and started thinking "Welcome to rock and roll night, welcome to rock and roll fight...."
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:36   Link #946
dan-heron
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seems about right, Sol

EDIT:

Vaden, they will probably make a clip or gif of it now
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:37   Link #947
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I disagree here. The degree of mental stability displayed by Mato vs. i.e. Yomi and Kagari are on completely different levels.
If that was true BRS wouldn't have been as strong as she was from the start. The fact that BRS has been the strongest to begin with hints Mato is hiding a bigger internal turmoil that even that of Yomi and Kagari.

The series website confirms Mato is hiding some emotion, so you shouldn't take her facade of normalcy at face value.
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:39   Link #948
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The plot as it stands seems pretty clear and coherent to me, so I will just address the criticisms. The single point people have been raising complaining about BRS's "inconsistency" is that they didn't expect Saya to have any "good" motivations. Like, at all. Apparently they thought Saya was supposed to be a black and white, purely megalomaniacal, evil villain whose sole motivation was that she got off on little girls' suffering. And for this reason they were unable to get into Yuu and Saya's backstory.

If this is the sole point they can muster, I do have to say that the criticisms are pretty ridiculous. Saya has not suddenly become "the good guy". She is still purposely increasing and aggravating the suffering of middle school girls in order to protect someone she made an old promise to. This revelation has done nothing except to give Saya her own motivations. Even if Saya was largely portrayed as malicious previously, this development was hardly unexpected and is hardly any grounds for stating that the writing of the series as a whole is terrible.

Anyway, as a general note, I would advise people not to get too excited about ideas like "BRS is the villain" or "Saya and STR are the main characters". If this anime is true to the "core" of the BRS franchise, then the ultimate focus will still be on yuri between BRS and Dead Master (i.e. Mato and Yomi). Yuu and Saya are merely the justification for the plot; Mato, as the uninvolved party dragged into this mess, and as the main character, will have her emotional resolution completed around her relationship with Yomi and the "little bird" story.
That's a straw man's argument.

The problem with Saya isn't that she's no longer evil. It's that her plan was hardly a plan. Pushing Yomi over the edge just so that Dead Master can defeat BRS was not well thought out. Saya is supposed to be a school counselor, and unless I'm mistaken, the occupation calls for working with and understanding students. What made Saya settle on provoking Yomi? Because BRS needed to be defeated? That's not a legitimate excuse when there more intelligent methods like... Saya actually doing her job and consoling Mato.

The human world drama is so unnatural that it feels as if the writers are forcing the characters to act this way just to match the action scenes in BRS world.
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:52   Link #949
Marcus H.
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On the previous page's discussion on changes of character design and the "ridiculousness" of the plot, here are my thoughts.

The character designer for the BRS OVA, Yuusuke Matsuo, transferred to iDOLM@STER as its animation director. Because of this, the character designer is tasked with creating new character designs for the anime series for the simple reason of copyright i.e. one character designer cannot use the already existing designs created by another. Thus the changes in character design.

On the plot, whether the series' story is truly unrealistic or realistic doesn't matter. The viewers just can't accept that such a plot can hold together. But it can. And it only depends in the person; there will be people who will react with "I'm confused" or "I don't know what is going on" and there will be people who will manage to understand what is going on.

Quote:
The problem with Saya isn't that she's no longer evil. It's that her plan was hardly a plan. Pushing Yomi over the edge just so that Dead Master can defeat BRS was not well thought out. Saya is supposed to be a school counselor, and unless I'm mistaken, the occupation calls for working with and understanding students. What made Saya settle on provoking Yomi? Because BRS needed to be defeated? That's not a legitimate excuse when there more intelligent methods like... Saya actually doing her job and consoling Mato.
I think Saya being a school counselor is merely a front. As a person who knows about how the human mind works, you have the power to tinker with the emotions of other people, which she needs as a fuel to advance her plans. She probably thinks that Yomi as a victim of Kagari's maltreatment will be the strongest opponent for BRS considering now negative energy she is supposed to possess. She underestimated Mato, however.
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Old 2012-03-09, 21:39   Link #950
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageblink View Post
I agree on everything you said above except that one fact.
Why the hell did she try to scare Mato by choking her ?
It's :
1 - disturbing as hell
2 - not helping that much
This wasn't because Saya wanted to scare Mato. It was explained by Saya almost choking Mato again in this episode. One simple way Saya potentially has to get rid of BRS/IBRS is to simply kill Mato. Saya choked Mato in episode 5 because she is always aware and being tempted by this possibility.

A simple comparison:
- Saya is tempted to physically hurt Mato, but occasionally seems to successfully console her emotionally (see her earlier counselling sessions with Mato at the start of the series).
- Saya attempts to and is largely successful at emotionally hurting other girls (Kohata, Yomi).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
If that was true BRS wouldn't have been as strong as she was from the start. The fact that BRS has been the strongest to begin with hints Mato is hiding a bigger internal turmoil that even that of Yomi and Kagari.

The series website confirms Mato is hiding some emotion, so you shouldn't take her facade of normalcy at face value.
I suppose this is indeed a possibility, since BRS's origins really haven't been explained. Nonetheless though, even if this is the case, I don't think Mato's relationship with Yomi could have been the trigger to push her over the edge. Rather, if Mato is carrying some internal trauma from even before she met Yomi, wouldn't it be her direct exposure to it (via merging into the otherworld by STR's actions) that broke her? Mato has never been shown to be emotionally dependent on Yomi like Yomi is/was on Mato; so I don't think the breakdown of their relationship, without Mato even realizing that she was somehow herself responsible, would've been enough to match up to this other source of trauma like you have hypothesized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The problem with Saya isn't that she's no longer evil. It's that her plan was hardly a plan. Pushing Yomi over the edge just so that Dead Master can defeat BRS was not well thought out. Saya is supposed to be a school counselor, and unless I'm mistaken, the occupation calls for working with and understanding students. What made Saya settle on provoking Yomi? Because BRS needed to be defeated? That's not a legitimate excuse when there more intelligent methods like... Saya actually doing her job and consoling Mato.
Marcus H. already brought up the point that Saya is a pretty doubtful counsellor. In fact, Saya's plan was not focused on Yomi specifically but on aggravating the grief of many girls intentionally (see Kohata, etc., or the many other puppets who were growing in BGS's domain in the otherworld). As a school counsellor at a middle school, wouldn't this be a perfect position to get a hold of many vulnerable students' weaknesses? The only reason that Yomi featured prominently from Saya's perspective is that she already had, like Kagari, a severe enough trauma to possess a full otherworld personality. And I do think trying to raise up many otherworld personalities from other girls to distract BRS makes sense as a strategy to "protect" Yuu in the other world.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
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Old 2012-03-09, 21:44   Link #951
orion
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Anyway, as a general note, I would advise people not to get too excited about ideas like "BRS is the villain" or "Saya and STR are the main characters". If this anime is true to the "core" of the BRS franchise, then the ultimate focus will still be on yuri between BRS and Dead Master (i.e. Mato and Yomi). Yuu and Saya are merely the justification for the plot; Mato, as the uninvolved party dragged into this mess, and as the main character, will have her emotional resolution completed around her relationship with Yomi and the "little bird" story.
Well DM is dead and Mato got deleted from Yomi's phone so it's prob not going to be a true to the core as you described. More like Mato and Yuu have to resolve their issues I bet.
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Old 2012-03-09, 21:48   Link #952
silvercover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Logic can not be proven wrong in fiction until it's complete. Nonsense can easily become fact.

If it's just the style that you don't like... well that's fine then.
that only applies to comedy series where most if not everything is crack.

considering the point of the series is to make us feel attached(which is done by making characters "real") and cry over what happens to the characters(which we see here is stupidity), its not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Well DM is dead and Mato got deleted from Yomi's phone so it's prob not going to be a true to the core as you described. More like Mato and Yuu have to resolve their issues I bet.
yeah I agree with this.
I mean, I really dont see any way for this to go back to that. even if mato gains back her self, there's still yomi and her memories. unless we get something out of nowhere like yuu was dumping those bodies to get them be "reborn" in someway, I dont see how it can be resolved.
or maybe it will end with like mato "letting go" of yomi for her benefit.
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:07   Link #953
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Well DM is dead and Mato got deleted from Yomi's phone so it's prob not going to be a true to the core as you described. More like Mato and Yuu have to resolve their issues I bet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
yeah I agree with this.
I mean, I really dont see any way for this to go back to that. even if mato gains back her self, there's still yomi and her memories. unless we get something out of nowhere like yuu was dumping those bodies to get them be "reborn" in someway, I dont see how it can be resolved.
or maybe it will end with like mato "letting go" of yomi for her benefit.
lol, I'm just holding out faith on this issue. Obviously I haven't got any real idea on how the series will end, and the end of this episode does make it look bad (or rather, that was kinda the point, as far as the cliffhanger goes), but like some other poster might've said earlier in this thread, I think, the one consistent element that has been every BRS work or adaptation is yuri between BRS and DM. More than that, I've heard that the only requirement Huke has made for any BRS adaptations is that they involve yuri. So like I said even at the end of the previous episode, the only thing which I am hoping for from the series is that Mato and Yomi get together/become close friends somehow.

On another note:
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
that only applies to comedy series where most if not everything is crack.

considering the point of the series is to make us feel attached(which is done by making characters "real") and cry over what happens to the characters(which we see here is stupidity), its not working.
Somehow, I really do think that animesuki's reception to BRS this time around has been unusually stuffy. Over on /a/, after the last couple episodes, there've actually been a lot of people who've even been calling BRS anime of the year material (not that I'd go that far (BRS is something like my fifth favourite yuri anime this season), but I have been enjoying it). Not only that, but over in Japan I think the preorders for the boxset have been basically sold out from very early on in its airing, ever since the bundled IBRS figure was announced. So on a success and popularity level, I don't think this anime has been doing too badly.
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:14   Link #954
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Marcus H. already brought up the point that Saya is a pretty doubtful counsellor. In fact, Saya's plan was not focused on Yomi specifically but on aggravating the grief of many girls intentionally (see Kohata, etc., or the many other puppets who were growing in BGS's domain in the otherworld). As a school counsellor at a middle school, wouldn't this be a perfect position to get a hold of many vulnerable students' weaknesses? The only reason that Yomi featured prominently from Saya's perspective is that she already had, like Kagari, a severe enough trauma to possess a full otherworld personality. And I do think trying to raise up many otherworld personalities from other girls to distract BRS makes sense as a strategy to "protect" Yuu in the other world.
No, no it does not make sense. Creating multiple otherworld persona just to distract BRS does nothing but aggravate her even further, making her a bigger threat as time passes.

It still does not answer why Saya chose this method out of all possible ones to weaken/kill Mato and BRS. Again, why not actually help Mato out and alleviate some of her trauma?

Calling Saya a dubious counselor does not answer the question. A person does not need the position of counselor to talk to and comfort another person. Why did Saya not even make a geniune attempt to help out Mato? If creating an anti-BRS otherworld army was really the only method Saya had left, where's the desperation? Where's the guilt that Saya should have felt for manipulating the lives of multiple children just to save one? If Saya is repressing that guilt, then why did she smirk as if she was boasting her scheme instead of maintaining an appropriately, stern, stressed out demeanor?
This is why Saya's plan and her character in general is unnatural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Somehow, I really do think that animesuki's reception to BRS this time around has been unusually stuffy. Over on /a/, after the last couple episodes, there've actually been a lot of people who've even been calling BRS anime of the year material (not that I'd go that far (BRS is something like my fifth favourite yuri anime this season), but I have been enjoying it). Not only that, but over in Japan I think the preorders for the boxset have been basically sold out from very early on in its airing, ever since the bundled IBRS figure was announced. So on a success and popularity level, I don't think this anime has been doing too badly.
The criticism is about the story when taken seriously. People turn off their brains to Ordet's 2D world and to mindlessly enjoy the craziness and the 3D fight scenes from Studio Trigger.

That's what a lot of people do for visually pleasing, but poorly written series. If people focused purely on the plot when they watch stuff like Kanokon, To-Love-Ru, Manyuu Hikenchou, etc and paid no attention to the visuals, everyone would drop those and very few would get to the end.
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:25   Link #955
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by SirusRiddler View Post
Remember when Black Rock Shooter was just a cool character design for a VOCALOID song with an awesome music video?

Yeah, I miss that. The OVA, anime, and to a certain extent, the game, are just terrible attempts to extrapolate a plot from something that never asked for one.
Too bad that is why the OP is a freakin' poorly done Vocaloid song.
If the singing was better, it could have easily been the coolest OP this season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Logic can not be proven wrong in fiction until it's complete. Nonsense can easily become fact.

If it's just the style that you don't like... well that's fine then.
Yeah, about as easy as this banana becoming an apple if I chant it 100 times.
I'm not the best with words (maybe), but if an anime is appealing to a human audience, then the anime has to move the humans in the anime in the boundary of humanity. Kind of like how seeing people die is sadder than seeing ants die?
Then again, I don't think Noitamina is appealing to an audience on Earth this season.
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:35   Link #956
Marcus H.
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considering the point of the series is to make us feel attached(which is done by making characters "real") and cry over what happens to the characters(which we see here is stupidity), its not working.
How an anime series can produce emotions out of its viewers is completely subjective. The Key Trilogy can be considered as an effective tearjerker and there will still be people who will say that it did not make them shed even a single tear.

Quote:
I'm not the best with words (maybe), but if an anime is appealing to a human audience, then the anime has to move the humans in the anime in the boundary of humanity. Kind of like how seeing people die is sadder than seeing ants die?
Did you just insult both NoitaminA and some of the anime series that "is (not) appealing to an audience on Earth"?

Sol Falling: I think /a/ understands this anime series more than a handful of us here.
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:42   Link #957
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Did you just insult both NoitaminA and some of the anime series that "is (not) appealing to an audience on Earth"?
Nah, just the former.
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:49   Link #958
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
No, no it does not make sense. Creating multiple otherworld persona just to distract BRS does nothing but aggravate her even further, making her a bigger threat as time passes.
I don't really see any evidence for this. The only thing BRS's strength is associated with is the degree of Mato's own trauma. How would having to fight more otherworld beings affect that?

Quote:
It still does not answer why Saya chose this method out of all possible ones to weaken/kill Mato and BRS. Again, why not actually help Mato out and alleviate some of her trauma?
The thing is at this point we've seriously got no idea what Mato's trauma even is. Mato seems perfectly well-adjusted and happy for the most part. Her daily life as we know it, minus the complications with Yomi, seemed completely normal and happy. Where would Saya start?

Also, are there even any other methods besides fighting BRS in the other world or trying to comfort/encourage her in the real one?

Quote:
Calling Saya a dubious counselor does not answer the question. A person does not need the position of counselor to talk to and comfort another person. Why did Saya not even make a geniune attempt to help out Mato? If creating an anti-BRS otherworld army was really the only method Saya had left, where's the desperation? Where's the guilt that Saya should have felt for manipulating the lives of multiple children just to save one? If Saya is repressing that guilt, then why did she smirk as if she was boasting her scheme instead of maintaining an appropriately, stern, stressed out demeanor?
This is why Saya's plan and her character in general is unnatural.
The point I made above covers pretty much all of this. We don't really know to what degree "counselling" Mato is even an option, given that for the most part Mato seems well-adjusted. As a threat, BRS in her vanilla form was not that dangerous, either; it's only now that IBRS has awakened that shit has really hit the fan for Saya. And Saya's character has clearly been set up such that Yuu is her absolute number one priority. Maybe she doesn't feel guilty about emotionally ruining children because their pain disappears once BRS kills them anyway; or maybe she's simply morally ambiguous and is still mostly playing the role of a villain. In any case, I don't think the way she's been written is so bad that it ruins the series.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-03-09, 23:17   Link #959
silvercover
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The criticism is about the story when taken seriously. People turn off their brains to Ordet's 2D world and to mindlessly enjoy the craziness and the 3D fight scenes from Studio Trigger.
exactly.
the real reason BRS anime is getting so much reception is because of the otherworld characters and their fights. take out the SoL moments, and id say the show would be getting enough fans to qualify as "best anime this season".

getting elements from the OVA imo was a mistake, as we can see that they fail at SoL due to how overblown the drama is going on. they could have cut that out and fill in the void of characters with the others like black devil girl and black matagi for instance.
I posted here before a list of various characters that could have been implemented into the story. they work better this way.
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Old 2012-03-09, 23:38   Link #960
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't really see any evidence for this. The only thing BRS's strength is associated with is the degree of Mato's own trauma. How would having to fight more otherworld beings affect that?
The ability to adapt comes with fighting. Unless Saya's otherworld army can kill or permanently cripple BRS, all they're doing is being annoyances. It wastes time and does nothing to save Yuu or actually take down BRS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The thing is at this point we've seriously got no idea what Mato's trauma even is. Mato seems perfectly well-adjusted and happy for the most part. Her daily life as we know it, minus the complications with Yomi, seemed completely normal and happy. Where would Saya start?
... by actually trying to talk to Mato? All Saya has to do is talk to her, initiate some conversation, and get to know her from talking to her. She could work from there.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Also, are there even any other methods besides fighting BRS in the other world or trying to comfort/encourage her in the real one?
Befriending BRS? Creating alliances and approaching her in larger numbers? Saya actually asking for help from others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The point I made above covers pretty much all of this. We don't really know to what degree "counselling" Mato is even an option, given that for the most part Mato seems well-adjusted. As a threat, BRS in her vanilla form was not that dangerous, either; it's only now that IBRS has awakened that shit has really hit the fan for Saya. And Saya's character has clearly been set up such that Yuu is her absolute number one priority. Maybe she doesn't feel guilty about emotionally ruining children because their pain disappears once BRS kills them anyway; or maybe she's simply morally ambiguous and is still mostly playing the role of a villain. In any case, I don't think the way she's been written is so bad that it ruins the series.
The point is that Saya's method of instigating teen drama indirectly is a roundabout method that would not be the first option a person would consider naturally.

If Saya's only choice is to do what she has been doing, then the show needs to prove it. Did she try other options like talking to Mato or looking for a way to rescue Yuu and fail? Then show it. The way Saya has behaved, it doesn't look like she was hard pressed to get rid of BRS after failing so many attempts. She initially seemed like a a schemer that was thrilled at how genius her plan was.

If there are other feasible options, then it just makes Saya look even more foolish for attempting this convoluted plan. And no, "given that Mato is well adjusted" does not answer my question. In what way does a seemingly happy person prevent someone from talking to her? Saya knows that BRS is her alter ego, and given the nature of the otherworld, Mato must have some issues.
Thinking "well, she looks fine, so I can't talk to her" does not logically follow.
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