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Old 2012-03-24, 19:36   Link #1181
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Personally I hate shows that try too hard to not have a plot. I don't want Tom & Jerry style of action, where it's there with very little premise. That said I do not put weight on the premise; I just expect sufficient quantity to make some sense, not quality.
The fact I stated "more action based" doesn't mean it would turn into a T&J style. Also, what I was criticizing was how they couldn't maintain the script without the issues mentioned above, I never stated the "high school part" is impossible to work with, although the way they did here was awkward. Don't put words in my mouth.
Quote:
I liked it. Therefore your generalization is false
You got it backward: you declared that without the melodrama, there wouldn't be any tension. The fact you liked it doesn't mean it isn't doable to make a conflict without the melodrama. You made the assumption here, not me.
Quote:
I don't believe you; what's your basis for saying that?
[...]
If you want me to believe in your argument, make up some plot points they could have gone though with if they followed out of the OVA, and prove to me how that is more coherent or achieves the goal of selling the theme of BRS (among the other obvious requirements).
As already stated: the game and the manga greatly diverged from the OVA, and could deliver a much more action based plot. Liking it or not would depends of the individual, but my point stands as that you really don't need the OVA premise to start a plot with BRS lore.
Also, by no means I'm under the burden of proof here: working on something non melodrama action centred story isn't a first in general, and I -really- doubt anyone expected the high school setting when the OVA trailer was aired. In fact, a good deal of people never saw it coming, for obvious reasons.
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No. It's a perspective on the problem, therefore it's relevant.
Absolutely not. You are calling out people, declaring they "should stop bitching and learn to (properly) enjoy" it. That's actually implying you get it and we don't. As far as it goes, I only mentioned my take of the series so far. I never implied "that those who appreciated the series ignored/didn't notice the flaws", but for some reason, you certainly force people to reconsider things.
Putting it bluntly: There is no "method" to enjoy a show, since it depends of people taste and how they perceive a given quality/default as minor or more than that. So declaring people should learn how to enjoy a show is a very displaced remark.
Quote:
Personally I watched the show several episodes at a time and didn't go to discuss it anywhere (no interest given the pre-show trolling). And you know what, I enjoyed it just fine!
Good for you, and you aren't the only one. So what?
It isn't like I criticized the show to ruin people enjoyment or "convince them" that they should not like it. I didn't like the show in its every tidbits, you did. Also, there wasn't any remote implied "how people can enjoy this show" comment whatsoever: people expressed how they enjoyed the show, others did the opposite. That's far as it goes.
Quote:
Coming here and hearing the arguments, I'm not really seeing the connections. Whatever issues you have, are either artificially created from the fact your little journey though the show was: talk > episode > talk > talk > episode > talk, meaning they are problems only people who sat down and analyzed every minute of the episode for a week would have
You are making even more assumption: it isn't like I spent minutes or even hours to think about what I've watched. You did like the show without discussing it? Well I didn't like flaws I spotted on the fly, and that's without turning my brainpower to the max. No really, you are the one making a gross assumpion here: I didn't expect any sophisticated story at all, and I still got disturbed by the storytelling -at the very same time I was watching each episode-. The fact I posted few posts about it or not doesn't matter, since I would have had the very same impressions regardless if I did the former or not.

And instead of stating the issues of the argument presented by those who found the story flawed, you keep repeating "artificial" "shallow" and so forth. You can disagree however you want, but brushing the arguments this way is not only disrespectul in term of discussion, it doesn't really help your stance one bit.
I don't need debate or every points countered to see that some people just disagree and can fully enjoy their show. Likewise, I really don't need myself to argue all day long to prove I couldn't swallow some points of this series.
Quote:
as evident from the fact most of the arguments can be attributed to a "how would a debate on the show go" subject matter. Or, it's something deeper then that such as you've watched too much stuff with the same hooks, that like little kids you've grown bored of them and want new ones; obviously "breaking" them old toys is the way to go
Another assumption and generalization. Most people who complained about the show hardly made any comparison or "what they should have done instead". Most points were points that don't exactly make sense in the series own standards and setting.
Quote:
Yes it can be important, but the show isn't obligated to do it (and you are not entitled to get it). The journey is NOT the destination. The experience is not the ending; that's just the cherry on the cake. So going in with make or break expectations of the destination is fine, but the show's not to blame if you get disappointed.You can't say "the show is bad" because of it, because that implies nobody else likes it, but it's "nobody else that only cares for the last 2 minutes of the entire 160 minute thing and expects X won't like it", which is just extreeeemely narrow thinking; not much of an accurate assessment you want it to be.
This is where I think your point of view will just be incompatible: the ending is important imo, as it is a part and ultimately the end of the journey.
And you made a mistake here: the destination wasn't the only problem I had with the show, so no, the ending wasn't the only thing that made say that the script of BRS TV was awkward.
Quote:
People keep bringing that up for some reason. I dropped it at around episode 7 or 8 as I recall.
And the reason is quite self evident: it isn't the first time you call out people regarding their complaint about a show, saying they put shallow arguments and whatnot, while you weren't exactly any different with that particular series.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-03-24 at 20:21.
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Old 2012-03-25, 02:24   Link #1182
xizro345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Can you go into more detail? The general problem with the "but there's a game and it's better" argument is that, game =/= story (and yes I do mean "story").
I mean, it has a setting which is completely different (BRS is voiced by Maya Sakamoto, as another example), and the story, while leaving some stuff up to interpretation and/or background material, remains decently consistent throughout the game. Sometimes the drama is a little too much, especially with the character of Nana Gray, who can be considered the Yomi-counterpart of the game (she's voiced by Miyuki Sawashiro as well). But overall it works, perhaps because it's less ambitious than the TV series. The story is pretty much prominent in the game, despite not being at Xenosaga-like levels.
I say it's better because it has a direction, sticks with it, and doesn't throw random plot points around then forgetting about them 5 s later (the whole "BRS will destroy that world" argument in episode 7).
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Old 2012-03-25, 06:41   Link #1183
felix
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Spoiler for more on 'how it should have been' discussion + typical meta nonsense:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
I mean, it has a setting which is completely different (BRS is voiced by Maya Sakamoto, as another example), and the story, while leaving some stuff up to interpretation and/or background material, remains decently consistent throughout the game. Sometimes the drama is a little too much, especially with the character of Nana Gray, who can be considered the Yomi-counterpart of the game (she's voiced by Miyuki Sawashiro as well). But overall it works, perhaps because it's less ambitious than the TV series. The story is pretty much prominent in the game, despite not being at Xenosaga-like levels.
I say it's better because it has a direction, sticks with it, and doesn't throw random plot points around then forgetting about them 5 s later (the whole "BRS will destroy that world" argument in episode 7).
You'll have to understand I never played it. So everything you just said translated to:
"it has <insert generic good attribute>. X and Y voice actor are in it".
I'm not exactly convinced, sorry.
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Old 2012-03-25, 08:01   Link #1184
Klashikari
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TL;DR…
 
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
There is nothing else I want to add except that: read posts for what they are. It is tiring to see how many times you warped people points and arguments, without even bothering taking notes of the points given and instead indulged yourself in full assumptions. Done with this anyway.
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Old 2012-03-25, 09:31   Link #1185
xizro345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
You'll have to understand I never played it. So everything you just said translated to:
"it has <insert generic good attribute>. X and Y voice actor are in it".
I'm not exactly convinced, sorry.
And you have to understand there's a specific thread in the game section related to the game. I'm not going to break the rules by going into details here. Besides, the game is still supposedly scheduled for the NA market.
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Old 2012-03-25, 09:40   Link #1186
Marcus H.
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Okay guys, stop the hating. We already know that the series had a lackluster production team (except for Sanzigen's marvelous mix of 3D CGI and 2D animation), but you don't need to put more salt into the wounds by justifying your claim OVER and OVER again. Not to mention that telling us that we somehow made a mistake of enjoying the series is a big insult.
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Old 2012-03-25, 09:47   Link #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Not to mention that telling us that we somehow made a mistake of enjoying the series is a big insult.
Since when such comment was ever done?
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Old 2012-03-25, 09:57   Link #1188
Marcus H.
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One doesn't need to talk directly about it. It can be easily implied by repetitive analyses that tends to point out the flaws of the series.
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Old 2012-03-25, 10:04   Link #1189
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
One doesn't need to talk directly about it. It can be easily implied by repetitive analyses that tends to point out the flaws of the series.
Pointing flaws of an aired episode/finished series is the very same as pointing the qualities of the episode/series, just on the opposite side of the spectrum. It has nothing to do with attacking/questioning the reason why people like the show and whatnot.

To make such assumption is no less insulting than claiming people shouldn't like the show. By the same logic, I should suddenly think that all of the people liking a show de facto think that those who dislike it are dumb by repeating "the action / drama / etc was cool!". Both are unreasonable at best.
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Old 2012-03-25, 11:33   Link #1190
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I'm surprised at the all-out warfare in this thread, of all places. I'm also surprised that I actually like this show despite many elements that found to be cheesy or unnecessary (specifically, the picture book).
Normally I would absolutely hate emoness and drama (especially since most of the girls are making mountains out of molehills), but for some reason I didn't mind it in a show that literally revolves around that.
I really wished that they could have given a bit more time to Strength/Yu, because the whole abuse/body switching/"alien"-in-human-world thing because there was basically no foreshadowing at all when it took center stage in the plot. The story behind Saya/BGS also got dropped, despite her being played up as a villain. Switching from trying to kill Mato to suddenly not is , despite all the theories other people have proposed.

Meh, 8/10, good but somewhat flawed.
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Old 2012-03-25, 15:31   Link #1191
felix
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Spoiler for more on 'proper plot' discussion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by xizro345 View Post
And you have to understand there's a specific thread in the game section related to the game. I'm not going to break the rules by going into details here. Besides, the game is still supposedly scheduled for the NA market.
I see.

Subscribed to the thread. Just post it there, I'll be watching out for it.
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Old 2012-03-25, 20:10   Link #1192
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BLACK * ROCK SHOOTER. Last Thoughts


I'm already done with half of the shows that I picked-up for this season, which is about to end. Black * Rock Shooter turning 3rd place of the anime that I have finished for this season.

On-Topic
It was about July 31st last year when I came to watch the OVA.

Back then, I realized that the symbolism and metaphors referenced the inner conflicts of the main characters coming true as battles in the other world.

I am thankful for enjoying this series without venturing deep into the realm of the meanings that were frequently explored in the story, however, I do get that to understand the relationship on what's happening with the girls in the real world to what's going on with BRS and the other characters in the other world, hence, the symbolism must be grasped by the viewer to some extent.

Spoiler:


Black * Rock Shooter may have its faults, and many of you found the plot senseless, but to me it's whole message became clear.
- It's about a girl wanting to make friends, and all of those girls are interconnected due to having faced burdens and fears that bore a weight on them. Their other selves took upon those burdens, which it was Ok.
- But for some those girls they just wanted to live in a sort of a status quo were nothing in their world had to change in order to avoid pain and not realizing, until it was too late, that found obsessions with their friendships to escape the problem rather than faced it.
Spoiler:

- However, how badly treated, how abused she'll get, or how fearful she would get knowing she'll have no other choice but to hurt others, that girl still seeked to make friends with the other girls to make bonds with them in spite of pain.
- To be surrounded by friends to know them, to share their memories with them, and to share between themselves their pains and fears, as they continued to live and grow-up in the real world.
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Old 2012-03-26, 00:10   Link #1193
GundamZZ
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I like the show's progress more than its outcome.

The plot twists is really a joyful ride.
Black Rock Saw began as a manipulating big boss. Then, she turns to a very caring big-sister role model.

Strength started out as a bystander and Black Rock Shooter's henchgirl. Then, the show tells us how she shoulders Yuu's sad life.

I can't feel for Chariot and Kagari's motivation, but battle scenes are so good.

The ending is quite good, because it doesn't turn out badly. Everyone's revival is as the symbol of the reconciliation among friends.
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Old 2012-03-26, 00:14   Link #1194
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At the conclusion, I'm reminded heavily of Kurosu Taichi's "fundamentally, there are no means for people to touch people other than through attacks." Being the pessimist that he is, Taichi goes on to say that he thinks "of friendship as nothing more than the skill of holding back." Maybe this show is trying to convey the more optimistic message of friendship also being the skill of enduring.

In the end, I think BRS managed to convey itself decently, despite the batshit insane stuff that happened in the middle. But those were entertaining in their own way.

7.8/10 overall
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Old 2012-03-26, 03:13   Link #1195
silvercover
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here, its like this:
director 1: "we will make BRS an action packed and thrilling series that will be talked for ages!"
director 2: "but how about their real life counterparts? as much as I love exhilarating, we need to make the 'real' characters important as they are in the OVA"
director 1: "oh fine. well, we just add lots of drama that will happen. then connect it to the otherworld characters and have them fight a no holds barred battle!"

when the fact is that those "RL" characters(mato, yomi) are not actually part of the BRS by huke. that's only for the OVA. see the manga for another example, they dont have any of those characters.
you can see the fact clearly that the "real" focus and reason for making the anime was for the CG fights. the drama was done because the directors were thinking that they had to stick to the original material, which they think is is the OVA, when the fact that it is not.
in the end, all they ended up doing was limiting themselves. for the epic fights, they had to give the girls problems as big as those.
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Old 2012-03-26, 04:43   Link #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
here, its like this:
director 1: "we will make BRS an action packed and thrilling series that will be talked for ages!"
director 2: "but how about their real life counterparts? as much as I love exhilarating, we need to make the 'real' characters important as they are in the OVA"
director 1: "oh fine. well, we just add lots of drama that will happen. then connect it to the otherworld characters and have them fight a no holds barred battle!"

when the fact is that those "RL" characters(mato, yomi) are not actually part of the BRS by huke. that's only for the OVA. see the manga for another example, they dont have any of those characters.
you can see the fact clearly that the "real" focus and reason for making the anime was for the CG fights. the drama was done because the directors were thinking that they had to stick to the original material, which they think is is the OVA, when the fact that it is not.
in the end, all they ended up doing was limiting themselves. for the epic fights, they had to give the girls problems as big as those.
Actually, the OVA and anime are probably the most faithful adaptations of Huke's original concept so far, schoolgirls and all. That's cause the OVA and anime thus far have been the only adaptations to fully feature the "main cast" of the BRS universe, namely Black Rock Shooter, Dead Master, Black Gold Saw, and Strength, in total. The (main) manga adaptation thus far only features BRS and Dead Master (and as another poster noted is a bit of a reinterpretation in terms of character designs), while the BRS game universe only includes BRS alone. The anime and OVA thus constitute the most involved attempts so far to adapt the entire scope of Huke's BRS universe.

People should get over their hate for slice of life schoolgirls, lol. Mato, Yomi, etc. are pretty much as much part of the general BRS canon as the original character designs by now, I'd say. You can't seriously imagine that Huke himself was not at least consulted in their creation; the fact that they even exist at all is probably due to Huke's own requirement that BRS adaptations feature "yuri". It is actually the people asking for BRS adaptations to focus on all "action" themselves who don't understand the true character of this franchise.

Anyway, I started reading the manga a couple months ago, and it blatantly features lesbian themes, lol. It's also pretty different from the OVA/anime, although quite humorous/touching/cute regardless, so I would recommend it. As for the anime/OVA themselves, for the record, after this conclusion, I prefer the OVA version. Mari Okada skimped on the Yomi-focus/yuri-fanservice while she's not even a particularly good writer in the first place, so the conclusion here was underwhelming. I enjoyed the ending-credit highlight video of all the characters more than the finale itself. Still, this was a decent showing for the BRS franchise. At this point, what I'm hoping is that they'll get yet another chance to do an interpretation of Mato and Yomi in further anime projects once again.
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Old 2012-03-26, 07:32   Link #1197
silvercover
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I dont really hate the girls, just how they are portrayed/done in the anime version. the OVA was done pretty well, unlike the anime one.

was referring more to the actual characters, as mato, yomi, and yuu were technically not part of the original. my point is, that if they were so concerned to stick with the franchise, they should know that those characters arent technically part of the BRS universe(the otherworld characters that is). as the examples shown, they didnt really have to follow the OVA's style and characters.

if they wanted something action-packed with it, they could have done something like post-apocalyptic world or something entirely different like fantasy/supernatural world.
or if the want to show the "lesson" of the story using the BRS franchise, they shouldnt have made the fights as violent and sadistic(hey, the fights were a lot more focused on hurting each other rather than a good fight), which in turn would translate to even more crazy/broken girls.
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Old 2012-03-26, 09:15   Link #1198
klare
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"i am going to hurt you, over and over again!" haha my head does hurt a bit

an ok series, i like the fights, but the story is a bit confusing

the songs are nice tho, especially the ED

as for the character designs, still prefer the OVA ones
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Old 2012-03-26, 11:12   Link #1199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
At the conclusion, I'm reminded heavily of Kurosu Taichi's "fundamentally, there are no means for people to touch people other than through attacks." Being the pessimist that he is, Taichi goes on to say that he thinks "of friendship as nothing more than the skill of holding back." Maybe this show is trying to convey the more optimistic message of friendship also being the skill of enduring.
All relationships are tests of endurance, so I really like what you wrote here. It's rare to find any relationship work without effort, because fundamentally all of us are different enough that problems can and do arise, sometimes from the simplest and stupidest of things.

I saw two elements of the show in the "deep" sense that I really liked here:

1. The notion that the person on the surface isn't always a reflection of who they are on the inside. The reality is that a lot of us bury our negative feelings because it is painful to express them. It is often the case where this "explodes" into acts of insanity. The show certainly plays this up to an extreme, but it does so effectively: when reality hits you in the face, it can feel like everything around you is falling apart in the worst possible way.

2. The way the bird story flows through everything. This is bit "artsy", but color is something we don't really think about much, as a people. The colors of the world are beautiful: the pure white of snow, the green of a forest, the blue of the ocean, the orange of the sun, etc. It is equally true that there are just as many colors are there are types of people. For me personally, as I've become older, I've found that experiencing those "colors" has reaped great reward, through relationships and perspectives. I hope to continue to meet as many colors as I can.

I've said before that the show is overly melodramatic and a great dark fantasy. I still hold to that. The flaws of the show are simple, as is the plot. There isn't anything deep here to realize that you haven't seen before. This is a tried and true friendship story (much to the chagrin of yuri fans). Rather, the combination of the fantastic and the mundane is what I think worked for me personally. Had BRS been all action, or the story been all "school girl", I don't think it would have been as interesting to watch. The blending of the two definitely needs work, and this is a criticism I share with the OVA as well. However unlike the OVA, the anime uses this blending to provide interesting plot twists and character development.

In particular, I thought the strongest and weakest element here was Yu. This is also the other key criticism I have with the anime. With eight episodes, the narrative was too wide. While I certainly felt for Yu and Saya, it really took the focus off of the first half....when it shouldn't have felt like halves at all. The jump from Yomi/Kagari to Yu/Saya was not smooth, and after Deadmaster is gone everything felt dropped to move on to the next "arc", only to attempt to tie together in the end.

Moving toward the ending, I felt irritated that we do not get any attempt to answer Yu's existence in the real world. Why hasn't she aged? Why is she going to school!? We see some concern for Mato missing in a previous episode, yet nothing when she actually arrives home? This kind of stuff bothers me. Why introduce elements to the story and not follow through? Who is taking care of Yu, Saya? And why is Strength alive again in the end? What was the point of having a death scene if she just comes back alive like nothing ever happened? I could raise even more questions but....

In the end it comes down to how much I did or did not enjoy BRS. Truth is, I enjoyed it quite a bit. The plot is at least coherent, and most of the questions I have aren't really important to the plot....mostly just wondering for the sake of personal satisfaction. I can even explain away much of it in my mind, but still I wish writers would be more thorough with some of these trickier plot elements, particularly when time constraints are an issue. I wish I could say this was unique to Noitamina, but unfortunately this is a general issue with the anime industry - far too many good ideas hurt by unfocused writing, poor pacing, and rushed endings.

So, far from being the best anime ever, it is at least a good anime. I'd recommend it to anyone looking for a short fantasy story with some slightly complex themes and a happy ending, with just enough action/drama to keep from being bored.
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Old 2012-03-26, 11:16   Link #1200
dan-heron
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hmmm, now I'm totally not stealing you people's explanations about the themes to write fanfics.
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